The Core Has To Go

[therealkoho]

And failed to get it.

Got ripped off you mean, the tip to Matthews may have glanced off a Montreal shin-pad, but he made that play happen. I've seen assists awarded for less

 

[justashadowof]

I really don't like Kypreos. But it's what a lot of us have been saying for the last few years.

The presentation was a bit hyperbolic but it's true. The Leafs have 4 star forwards who can't play heavy/mean/angry/aggressively/reactively. They just don't have that competitive fire burning in their bellies that Cup champions seem to have. Even if 2 of the 4 were that way, things would have been very different in the past 5 playoffs. That's why we've lobbied several summers in a row to break up this core and change the make up of this team.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

He can play the kampf role if/when he signs for cheap but besides that I agree.

He can't skate anymore man, even if he only played on the PP I wouldn't give him more than $1m per

 

[ACC1224]

I never go to the main boards… surely they can’t be worse than this?

This place has turned into short bus central the last week.

 

[WillNy29]

Its kind of like saying you arent happy in your relationship but you dont want to be alone so you'll stay.

lmao no it isn't. this is a stupid take. You don't win without a 1C. the brain trust on this board harped on that for the whole time of Burke's employment because we had Kessel but no 1C. Now we have a 1C and this fanbase is ready to send him packing. This fanbase deserves mediocrity.

 

[thewave]

This place has turned into short bus central the last week.

The circumstances are unfortunate but all things considered. It's difficult for most people to come terms with the realization that your loved one isn't who you thought they were. I actually think it's been tame compared to how I thought it would play out.

To be more specific about what I mean. I am talking about Dubas and Keefe being the fools gold, the fraudsters that I thought they were and Mitch being too soft for PO hockey.

Sadly, I hoped they won this year too, thought maybe ROR could pull them together.

 

[LeafEgo]

The circumstances are unfortunate but all things considered. It's difficult for most people to come terms with the realization that your loved one isn't who you thought they were. I actually think it's been tame compared to how I thought it would play out.

To be more specific about what I mean. I am talking about Dubas and Keefe being the fools gold, the fraudsters that I thought they were and Mitch being too soft for PO hockey.

Sadly, I hoped they won this year too, thought maybe ROR could pull them together.

Me too, wasn't sure they deserved ROR and Co but it was the best bet to see if the team could bring it together.

I feel bad for the players though, Mitch included. They didn't choose to go through this crazy experiment. With experienced mgmt, bringing kids into the league for 20 years, would they be playoff performers at this point? Seems like those deficiencies were noted and being worked on until they weren't.

 

[WillNy29]

Keep Nylander and trade Marner to Winnipeg for Connor and Morrissey.

not sure how we get Connor and Morrissey; according to the brain trust on this board Marner is trash so why the f*** would other teams trade good players for our garbage?

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Rotten to the core. Feel bad for Mo though, signs an 8 year deal, and now I hope every single one of them is traded before July 1st.

 

[rielledup]

Matthews for Fantilli and Drysdale? What do you guys think?

 

[seventieslord]

So far over his contract with the Leafs John Tavares is 10th among centres in goals, 13th in points, 9th in even strength goals, 11th in even strength points.

The powerplay is always going to help inflate his numbers because he is very good there. But PP numbers don't say anything about where a player falls in the even strength lines pecking order. As an everyday player, he's in serious decline.

Tavares' rankings in 5v5 Pts/60 among the 124 (31X4) centers with most minutes:

2019: 2nd. Undoubtedly a top-line star caliber center.

2020: 63rd. Exactly average. As in, definition of a middle-sixer.

2021: 16th. Average 1st line center.

2022: 35th. A very good 2nd line center.

2023: 38th. A pretty good 2nd line center.

We can say 2019 is ancient history and 2020 was a strange outlier, but the last three years show pretty much what it looks like on the ice, and also seem to indicate the kind of decline we all expected at this age.

And those are ok numbers for a 2nd line center so far but he can't skate and his downward slide is very likely to continue. If he was a ROR type player who could win the matchup game against 2nd lines then that would be acceptable. But his defensive performance has averaged out to... well, average in his time here.

2019: xGA was 11% higher than the league median xGA

2020: 4% higher than median

2021: 7% lower than median

2022: exactly on the median

2023: 3% lower than the median

Tavares is a 2nd line center right now.

Yes, Captain and bottom of the lineup player.

To be a bottom of the lineup player we'd have to expect him to sign for like 1.5M at the age of 34. You really think a player with his ego (not saying he has a legendary ego or anything, I mean in general, the ego of a proud athlete) is going to sign for that kind of money to stay here when there will definitely be teams willing to take a chance on him at 6M?

I don't suspect the team is as down on him as some fans are.

Dubas is all about analytics. The stats I showed above, while advanced to the layman, are pretty basic compared to the microstats and other proprietary things Dubas and his team track.

I find it really unlikely that they are pleased with his performance when he is approximately an average overall 2nd line center. Ideally if you want to contend you want to be above average, on balance, throughout the lineup. Furthermore, they are paying him to be a top-5 player in the league, solely based on his cap hit, that is.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure that even if he would never say so out loud, Dubas and his braintrust know that Tavares is a huge anchor.

No, making the decision two years out, absent knowledge of how good he'll be, what price point he'd sign at, and what the actual alternatives are makes it the bolded.

we know how good he is now and how old he is, which gives us a very good idea of how good he'll be in two years.

we also have years of history of salary curves for players like him. At age 34 it's time for him to take a paycut, sure, but anyone who thinks he'll stay here at a 4th liner's salary is dreaming.

Now that the league knows that the Coyotes won't be drafting Bedard, they still have a new 16k seat arena about to be built and will need to be filled. They have new financing and so that means the ability to spend. I just wonder if Matthews wouldn't mind playing at home, going head to head with McJeebuzz, Bedard, MacKinnon, getting all the money and zero pressure.

Not going to suggest what the return could be, but be advised they've got a ton of picks, some decent players and some recent high picks ready that now are ready to play.

Also a small note, everyone talks about that NTC about to activate on Matthews, those same clauses are about to activate on both Will and Mitch

Lots of work to do and not a whole bunch of time to do it

not a huge worry. Where there's a will, there's a way. Clarkson was traded. Anyone can be traded.

 

[WillNy29]

Matthews for Fantilli and Drysdale? What do you guys think?

we lose this trade on the premise that magic beans could be as good as a 2 time rocket winner and Hart Trophy winner.

People think trading Matthews is addition by subtraction...It isn't 1Cs don't grow on trees and there is serious questions about Fantilli's IQ. What happens when he doesn't turn into a 1C at that level do we ship him off for the next Fantilli?

 

[LeafEgo]

not sure how we get Connor and Morrissey; according to the brain trust on this board Marner is trash so why the f*** would other teams trade good players for our garbage?

There would be a discount you would think given the circumstances, but our stars our supremely talented and some teams will be convinced they can make them work in their system and with their people.

If there's enough of them, we may actually get a decent deal.

It's also a collective issue. Acquiring one of them circumvents that problem.

 

[WillNy29]

There would be a discount you would think given the circumstances, but our stars our supremely talented and some teams will be convinced they can make them work in their system and with their people.

If there's enough of them, we may actually get a decent deal.

It's also a collective issue. Acquiring one of them circumvents that problem.

doesn't seem like that's the case with the way they're being talked about here. You're calling them stars and everyone is saying they're bums; gotta be consistent. No one wants "play off chokers" and garbage hockey players for their good players. So with that logic we'll be eating salary and trading picks to get rid of Marner and Matthews.

 

[LeafEgo]

doesn't seem like that's the case with the way they're being talked about here. You're calling them stars and everyone is saying they're bums; gotta be consistent. No one wants "play off chokers" and garbage hockey players for their good players. So with that logic we'll be eating salary and trading picks to get rid of Marner and Matthews.

I suppose I disagree with some. I appreciate all of our players the people. But they have been ruined and other teams will try to take advantage of that if they see opportunity. The stars would projects to fix under mature management.

If enough teams see it the same way, don't be suprised if we gget reasonable value. Just depends on demand and timing.

 

[WillNy29]

I suppose I disagree with some. I appreciate all of our players the people. But they have been ruined and other teams will try to take advantage of that if they see opportunity. The stars would projects to fix under mature management.

If enough teams see it the same way, don't be suprised if we gget reasonable value. Just depends on demand and timing.

reasonable value means we get some average run of the mill players back we don't get any Connors or morriseys; teams don't pay big bucks for reclamation stars

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If sluggo was ever here, I never saw him. It's too bad. Curmudgeonly but always right. He eventually got his wish but it took eight years. I wonder what he thinks today about how it's all gone.

That was a fun board.

 

[LeafEgo]

reasonable value means we get some average run of the mill players back we don't get any Connors or morriseys; teams don't pay big bucks for reclamation stars

Edited for color:

You said reclamation stars not players, we aren't talking about a Ho Sang or even a Drouin. I'm not sure what example fits this situation.

Teams will have to determine how much damage has been done under the absurd managerial experiment and how difficult it will be to correct course on these players with top shelf talent. The crazy contracts make it more complicated.

But if enough teams see value and there is competition in the marketplace, we could get a good deal. It will certainly be better than run of the mill players.

 

[BigGulpsEh]

Marner has 4 goals in his last 34 playoff games

None in games 3-7 of any series in that span

 

[notDatsyuk]

View attachment 704616

Obviously printed before the Tavares signing!

 

[Squiffy]

The more he talks, the larger the fanbase that wants him to be the one to go, grows. He comes across as an arrogant, selfish POS. Sorry Mitch go shove your taped hockey stick and right wings up your ass.

Yup and that’s why this is such an unlikable group.
he should be the first guy gone when the new GM cleans house.
That pos doesn’t realize it’s the fan base that pays his dam salary

I could see it if he was working his ass off and producing but he is not.
He is simply delusional and I’m now firmly in the get rid of Marner camp

Pretty much the biggest clown on the team with zero accountability.

I mean, he’s referring to the media, social media “outside noise” if you will, not the fan base or you personally. We hear this cookie-cutter statement from dozens of players across the league dozens of times a year, and three times as much in the playoffs.

Now I am coming around to the idea that Mitch might need to go at the moment to, reserve judgement until the final nail is in the coffin, but if it ends how it looks to end then moving Mitch is in the table for sure.

But sweet sassy molassy, this is a nothing quote, take a breath.

Have you ever gone to the darkest part of the internet? The dark web? All alone at home with the wind howling outside and it sounds like a horror movie slasher is trying to break into your house at the same time?

Well do that before you go to the main boards.

Take a bow.

 

[rielledup]

we lose this trade on the premise that magic beans could be as good as a 2 time rocket winner and Hart Trophy winner.

People think trading Matthews is addition by subtraction...It isn't 1Cs don't grow on trees and there is serious questions about Fantilli's IQ. What happens when he doesn't turn into a 1C at that level do we ship him off for the next Fantilli?

Based on the scouting reports I've read on Fantilli he would be a strong number 1st overall pick in almost any other year and is almost guaranteed to be a 1c.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Matthews for Fantilli and Drysdale? What do you guys think?

We should absolutely make that trade but the Ducks will never agree to it.

People on this board need to drill this into their brains :

It doesn't matter if this makes you angry or upset, it's the truth and you need to accept it: Matthews no longer has "normal" trade value, the kind you would think he has. He is now a 1 year rental contract. Unless you're doing a sign-and-trade to a team Matthews wants to extend with - maybe the Los Angeles Kings - he no longer has the sky high trade value that he used to have. If you REALLY really wanted to get "proper" trade value for Matthews, you should have traded him when he had term left on his contract.

"Normal" Matthews (2 ,or more realistically, 2.5+ years on his contract) for Fantilli and Drysdale isn't insanely lopsided. A 1 year rental of Matthews isn't even close in value to Fantilli + Drysdale.

 

[pcruz]

The only good thing about this thread is that it helps me put more people on the ignore list.

The vast majority of the people trashing the team will be forefront of the bandwagon come next season, or if the Leafs win 2 games....

 

[Squiffy]

We should absolutely make that trade but the Ducks will never agree to it.

People on this board need to drill this into their brains :

It doesn't matter if this makes you angry or upset, it's the truth and you need to accept it: Matthews no longer has "normal" trade value, the kind you would think he has. He is now a 1 year rental contract. Unless you're doing a sign-and-trade to a team Matthews wants to extend with - maybe the Los Angeles Kings - he no longer has the sky high trade value that he used to have. If you REALLY really wanted to get "proper" trade value for Matthews, you should have traded him when he had term left on his contract.

"Normal" Matthews (2 ,or more realistically, 2.5+ years on his contract) for Fantilli and Drysdale isn't insanely lopsided. A 1 year rental of Matthews isn't even close in value to Fantilli + Drysdale.

Ya, someone would pay a kings ransom for him, it probably has to kinda fit these conditions, but any suggestion that trading AM doesn’t bring back appropriate value is.. well wrong. No team is doing it without knowing they are signing eight years of him.

And it’s revisionist anyways, as if trading Matthews was a serious thought 2 years ago.. it’s not even now. Guys, it’s not happening. Pursue some other “this is how you fix it” theory, the guy won the Hart last year and scored 60. Trading him is insanity, trade anything else, fire anything else, he is not the problem here.