The Core Has To Go

[seventieslord]

You'd have to really sink low to get Tavares to agree to leave and I think Toronto is above that. He was never worth $11 million per year and that hasn't changed. I don't know that you can really change the makeup of the team though, without moving Marner. He represents the Leafs to me on ice as much as Dubas does off of it.

It's not sinking low, it's sports and it's business. If you trade away all the players who have been getting him the puck the last 4 years he might not want to play here anymore. It may be unsuccessful but the conversation needs to be had.

 

[centipede2233]

I feel like the core were satisfied with the one rd win and just not hungry like Florida.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, we're in to opinion here. To me, because he's a generational talent that has continued to improve.. his physicality and defence has come miles over the years, battles hard, and scores like very few on this planet. He laid an egg with everyone else yesterday largely, but I think he's been excellent in general in these playoffs, and short of Reilly and maybe Knies I don't know that I'd say that of anyone else as a whole. Maybe Schenn. Obviously barring an all-time turn-around in the series we need some fundamental changes, but I wouldn't do him unless it is obvious in conversation that he's not interested. This is a kid from Arizona that has turned in to an elite NHL'er. His drive can't be questioned.

His drive definitely can be questioned, and it is, daily, by a lot of observers. We got the best years out of him already (just based on historic age curves) and he's only going to want even more money for an even longer time while he goes into decline.

This isn't Patrick Kane or Jonathan Toews at 26 where they've won you some cups and you owe them a retirement contract and/or the chance to get you another one. This core has done nothing. Nothing! There is nothing here to be attached to or emotional about. It's a business. Get what you can for this asset and let overpaying him be someone else's problem. If it ends up being our problem we're in big trouble because that extension will only age about 10% than Tavares' contact has aged. Learn from that one.

If we couldn't build a winner around him on this deal, we sure as hell won't do it on his next deal.

 

[seventieslord]

I think that if you want to attract future talent, that you don't shit on and chase out of town your current drafted talent. Kind of says a bad message. "why the f*** would I play for Toronto? If I don't win them a cup in 7 years they are going to publicly crucify me before running me out of town?"

Riiiiight, because the problem is they haven't won a cup in seven years.

.... You're joking, right?

 

[Squiffy]

His drive definitely can be questioned, and it is, daily, by a lot of observers. We got the best years out of him already (just based on historic age curves) and he's only going to want even more money for an even longer time while he goes into decline.

This isn't Patrick Kane or Jonathan Toews at 26 where they've won you some cups and you owe them a retirement contract and/or the chance to get you another one. This core has done nothing. Nothing! There is nothing here to be attached to or emotional about. It's a business. Get what you can for this asset and let overpaying him be someone else's problem. If it ends up being our problem we're in big trouble because that extension will only age about 10% than Tavares' contact has aged. Learn from that one.

If we couldn't build a winner around him on this deal, we sure as hell won't do it on his next deal.

Well, fair enough, valid opinion. I see it different, all good.

I just don't think he's the problem. I watched last night and heard myself over and over again saying "Mitchy, what are you doing?" I mean I like Marner because I'm a stupid Leaf fan, but yesterday was the first time I was thinking "Marner.. man we might have to move him, it's just not working in the playoffs". AM I wasn't muttering to myself about. Please pot those two golden chances but at least he got them.

JT.. I mean not a great contract at this point. It's not as bad as it's getting made out in the last 24h's but you'd love to get out of it.. won't.

Nylander.. I think he is probably out the door, someone is going to pay him more then we will. Might as well start there and recoup some assets.

AM I'd keep, one hundred times out of one hundred. I don't think he has failed, I think the Leafs have failed despite him.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

AM I'd keep, one hundred times out of one hundred. I don't think he has failed, I think the Leafs have failed despite him.

We can only keep him if both the team and the player want him to be here long-term. We'll find out in the next 7.5 weeks if they both want that, or if one / both would prefer to move on. It takes two to tango. Matthews can't force the Leafs to keep him, and the Leafs can't force Matthews to stay.

Exciting but scary that it's all coming to a head in less than 2 months.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, fair enough, valid opinion. I see it different, all good.

I just don't think he's the problem. I watched last night and heard myself over and over again saying "Mitchy, what are you doing?" I mean I like Marner because I'm a stupid Leaf fan, but yesterday was the first time I was thinking "Marner.. man we might have to move him, it's just not working in the playoffs".

JT.. I mean not a great contract at this point. It's not as bad as it's getting made out in the last 24h's but you'd love to get out of it.. won't.

Nylander.. I think he is probably out the door, someone is going to pay him more then we will. Might as well start there and recoup some assets.

AM I'd keep, one hundred times out of one hundred. I don't think he has failed, I think the Leafs have failed despite him.

We'll all still be alive and on these boards in 6 years. If we do re-sign Matthews, I'm telling you now, we will just get more of the same. Bookmark this if you want. Tell me how wrong I am in the spring of 2029 as Matthews powers the Leafs through round 2 and beyond. I hope I'm wrong but I like my odds compared to yours on your hunch.

 

[Squiffy]

We can only keep him if both the team and the player want him to be here long-term. We'll find out in the next 7.5 weeks if they both want that, or if one / both would prefer to move on. It takes two to tango. Matthews can't force the Leafs to keep him, and the Leafs can't force Matthews to stay.

Exciting but scary that it's all coming to a head in less than 2 months.

Yes. Again, elite players very very rarely move somewhere on this contract if the team is willing. It's just this side of unheard of. It's the Leafs call imo, AM will take the monster contract from the team that drafted him.

 

[seventieslord]

I’m the biggest Marner fan but I think keeping him may be a mistake. Nylander is cheaper and can score goals.

Has a bit of a come to Jesus moment, I think moving Marner is the right move to shake up the core. You have to look for a Huberdeau for Tkachuk type deal this summer before NTC’s kick in.

I agree, but who else is Tkachuk but Tkachuk?

 

[Squiffy]

We'll all still be alive and on these boards in 6 years. If we do re-sign Matthews, I'm telling you now, we will just get more of the same. Bookmark this if you want. Tell me how wrong I am in the spring of 2029 as Matthews powers the Leafs through round 2 and beyond. I hope I'm wrong but I like my odds compared to yours on your hunch.

I'll be here one way or the other.. and I promise I won't be trying to call out @seventieslord if AM is potting a Cup winning goal lol.. just do me the same if his trade return is the one doing it .

Ask my wife, I am wrong all the time.

 

[seventieslord]

I get it, the series is over.

JT, for better or worse is playing out his contract in a Leaf jersey. He's too overpaid and has a full NMC. He's not going anywhere. AM and MM are both great during the regular season, however, IF AM doesn't commit to a reasonable extension he should be shopped. MM is still one of the best RWers in the league, regardless of how bad he was this series. Nylander is reasonably priced for what he brings and has shown he has the tools, just needs more commitment in aspects that don't involve pure offensive skill.

Keefe on the other hand needs to be jettisoned. Immediately. IMO Dubas should get an extension.

Just wondering, are there any concrete examples of a player riding out his contract and NMC for multiple years on a team that no longer wants him and would prefer to get rid of him?

 

[Squiffy]

Just wondering, are there any concrete examples of a player riding out his contract and NMC for multiple years on a team that no longer wants him and would prefer to get rid of him?

Sundin?

 

[seventieslord]

Sandin’s the next Erik Gustafsson. That guy’s inexplicable level of entitlement in the contract negotiations at such a young age was such a red flag for me. How a guy who did nothing in the league could try to pull a hard line stance against an organization is beyond me.

To be fair, I think he knew he was not being given responsibility commensurate with his talent and actual performance. It was fair to expect a little more credit than just, "you're a 16 minute number six defenseman so take $1.2M"

I wish we waited longer to see what we really had. The guy actually had some grit, too. He crushed third pairing minutes but as soon as Washington got him they made him a number 1 just for funsies and he was like the highest event player in the league. Sooooo.... Not a top pairing defenseman, then? (Yet??) Just baffling overall, really don't know how this will end up and whether we'll regret it or how much.

What exactly does Chicago have that Leafs would want for Matthews?

4:48 EST you asked this. Fair enough.

 

[Gabriel426]

The first guy I will move is JT.
You just need to move him, you can't keep JT and move out one or two of AM, MM or Willie.
Give captaincy to Reilly and resign Schenn, Acciari and ROR and give two of them the A.

If possible, trade JT to Flames for Toffelli and Kadri. Sell them that Hubie needs a 1C like JT.

Run with AM, ROR and Kadri, then you have 2 RWs in Willie, MM and Toffelli.

Can even move Kadri to LW with ROR and MM, and let Calle, Acciari and Toffelli on the 3rd line.

 

[seventieslord]

I'll be here one way or the other.. and I promise I won't be trying to call out @seventieslord if AM is potting a Cup winning goal lol.. just do me the same if his trade return is the one doing it .

Ask my wife, I am wrong all the time.

Well, my worry is that Matthews won't be doing it, AND there will be no trade return to speak of. That's the nightmare.

 

[Squiffy]

Well, my worry is that Matthews won't be doing it, AND there will be no trade return to speak of. That's the nightmare.

That is a nightmare. @Gallagbi was talking about it somewhere, you expect both sides to be pros about it. Some bizarro world where AM and his agent sit down and tell the Leafs "We are looking to stay here long term, there's a deal to be made, work with us" and then back out on it... not good business for AM or the agent.

If it is in doubt make a move, and go full retool. I just don't think that is what will happen.

 

[seventieslord]

Sundin?

No, not what I'm looking for. The team only wanted to move him for assets as a rental late in his last year before being a UFA. He stood his ground, and I love the guy and wear his jersey, but I hate him for that. It's complicated. But it was his right.

We're talking about a guy with two full years on his deal. Have we ever seen a guy ride out multiple years of a contract while the team and fanbase are dying to drop him, but he just sits there, crosses his arms and says nuh-uh, I have a no trade clause, not going anywhere, sorry?

Because I can't think of one, but maybe my memory isn't working that well tonight. I suspect the reality is that NTCs are really just a way for a player to maintain control over where they go. They can point to the NTC if the GM has a deal to Columbus worked out, and conveniently waive it when the trade partner is the Rangers.

Basically the reason I'm asking is to find out just how much stock we should put in all these folks who keep saying JT isn't going anywhere. I say he might. If you ask him. And make him uncomfortable. Eat some salary and a draft pick and you can do it. I'm quite certain

 

[Squiffy]

No, not what I'm looking for. The team only wanted to move him for assets as a rental late in his last year before being a UFA. He stood his ground, and I love the guy and wear his jersey, but I hate him for that. It's complicated. But it was his right.

We're talking about a guy with two full years on his deal. Have we ever seen a guy ride out multiple years of a contract while the team and fanbase are dying to drop him, but he just sits there, crosses his arms and says nuh-uh, I have a no trade clause, not going anywhere, sorry?

Because I can't think of one, but maybe my memory isn't working that well tonight. I suspect the reality is that NTCs are really just a way for a player to maintain control over where they go. They can point to the NTC if the GM has a deal to Columbus worked out, and conveniently waive it when the trade partner is the Rangers.

Basically the reason I'm asking is to find out just how much stock we should put in all these folks who keep saying JT isn't going anywhere. I say he might. If you ask him. And make him uncomfortable. Eat some salary and a draft pick and you can do it. I'm quite certain

No I think you're right in general. Usually guys, even with full control, seem like they put together a short list of "OK, if this is what it is, I'd do this".

Didn't Sundin's situation stretch out over two years? Less so but there in the first year, and then manic in the second?

 

[seventieslord]

No I think you're right in general. Usually guys, even with full control, seem like they put together a short list of "OK, if this is what it is, I'd do this".

Didn't Sundin's situation stretch out over two years? Less so but there in the first year, and then manic in the second?

Definitely not 07, as he had another year on his deal, and the team was chasing a playoff spot. But certainly in 08 as we faced the prospect of seeing him ride into the sunset for nothing.

That said, there would've been some clamoring for breaking up the Muskoka five and rebuilding during 06-07, as I know it was already there from the January 2006 losing streak that sunk the team. Back on chat.mapleleafs.com the primary proponent was sluggo and I was one of his first converts. But overall, we were just a vocal minority. And the team had zero interest in 05-06, 06-07 and the first half of 07-08 at least.

 

[Squiffy]

My existence on this board may be flavouring my memory of the calls to trade Mats for sure. I remember it being a two year thing, but that might be within the existence of looney Leaf chat board'ers.

Sluggo. lol. Legend. He existed here too didn't he?

No, at least publicly I don't think we have ever seen a situation where a team lets out it that they'd like to move a guy and it doesn't happen for multiple years. Maybe thats PR control, we can't know that, but ya, usually when it becomes obvious that both sides should move on it happens.

 

[Gabriel426]

To be fair, I think he knew he was not being given responsibility commensurate with his talent and actual performance. It was fair to expect a little more credit than just, "you're a 16 minute number six defenseman so take $1.2M"

I wish we waited longer to see what we really had. The guy actually had some grit, too. He crushed third pairing minutes but as soon as Washington got him they made him a number 1 just for funsies and he was like the highest event player in the league. Sooooo.... Not a top pairing defenseman, then? (Yet??) Just baffling overall, really don't know how this will end up and whether we'll regret it or how much.


4:48 EST you asked this. Fair enough.

Sandin's speed or lack of speed will always be a problem. I said it many times on this forum, Sandin can literally play the perfect game, but he will get out skate by a random 4th liner and the puck will end up in the back of the net. Can't blame Sandin either b/c thats his physical limitations.

 

[seventieslord]

My existence on this board may be flavouring my memory of the calls to trade Mats for sure. I remember it being a two year thing, but that might be within the existence of looney Leaf chat board'ers.

Sluggo. lol. Legend. He existed here too didn't he?

No, at least publicly I don't think we have ever seen a situation where a team lets out it that they'd like to move a guy and it doesn't happen for multiple years. Maybe thats PR control, we can't know that, but ya, usually when it becomes obvious that both sides should move on it happens.

If sluggo was ever here, I never saw him. It's too bad. Curmudgeonly but always right. He eventually got his wish but it took eight years. I wonder what he thinks today about how it's all gone.

 

[Squiffy]

If sluggo was ever here, I never saw him. It's too bad. Curmudgeonly but always right. He eventually got his wish but it took eight years. I wonder what he thinks today about how it's all gone.

Slugging away somewhere.

Thanks for the conversation @seventieslord, gotta hit the sack.

HFLeafers, check it out, we disagree on a topic but have had a respectful and good conversation, this is how it should go. I know it's hard in the heat of the moment sometimes but we're all here for the same reason.

Cheers.

 

[francis246]

No, not what I'm looking for. The team only wanted to move him for assets as a rental late in his last year before being a UFA. He stood his ground, and I love the guy and wear his jersey, but I hate him for that. It's complicated. But it was his right.

We're talking about a guy with two full years on his deal. Have we ever seen a guy ride out multiple years of a contract while the team and fanbase are dying to drop him, but he just sits there, crosses his arms and says nuh-uh, I have a no trade clause, not going anywhere, sorry?

Because I can't think of one, but maybe my memory isn't working that well tonight. I suspect the reality is that NTCs are really just a way for a player to maintain control over where they go. They can point to the NTC if the GM has a deal to Columbus worked out, and conveniently waive it when the trade partner is the Rangers.

Basically the reason I'm asking is to find out just how much stock we should put in all these folks who keep saying JT isn't going anywhere. I say he might. If you ask him. And make him uncomfortable. Eat some salary and a draft pick and you can do it. I'm quite certain

The reason you don’t know is because those situations rarely get out but they probably exist. They don’t get out because no organization wants the fans to turn on the GM if it comes out they are trying to force out a specific player. Or they don’t want the media storm of fans turning on a player that refuses to move.

 

[seventieslord]

The reason you don’t know is because those situations rarely get out but they probably exist. They don’t get out because no organization wants the fans to turn on the GM if it comes out they are trying to force out a specific player. Or they don’t want the media storm of fans turning on a player that refuses to move.

So all the other times "team x is looking to move player y" comes out in the media, that's just cause player y doesn't have a NTC?

Come on. Of course it would get out.