The Battle for USA-CAN Dual Citizen Players

[NyQuil]

Dayne Beuker was born in Canada, raised in Canada, played his minor hockey in Canada, and is allowed to play for the NTDP just because his mom is from the States, and thus he takes a spot away from kids actually from the States. I know the rules are the rules, but that doesn't prevent me from having a sour taste about those rules and the process.

You can play this game all day.

How much of Jake Sanderson’s hockey ability comes from his Dad’s genetics and at-home tutelage?

You can say that he developed in the States but plenty of guys develop there who don’t have the benefit of his Canadian father and what he learned through his own Canadian development experience.

There are Canadians out there who are still mad about Brett Hull but ultimately it’s about the best players rising to the top so as to provide us with the best entertainment possible.

 

[Jovavic]

I was still in high school when you registered on this site. And yet I am 38 years old.

Quinton Byfield was two months old when I started here

 

[Hockeyville USA]

You can play this game all day.

How much of Jake Sanderson’s hockey ability comes from his Dad’s genetics and at-home tutelage?

You can say that he developed in the States but plenty of guys develop there who don’t have the benefit of his Canadian father and what he learned through his own Canadian development experience.

There are Canadians out there who are still mad about Brett Hull but ultimately it’s about the best players rising to the top so as to provide us with the best entertainment possible.

Sanderson moved to Calgary when he was 8 and played all of his formative minor hockey there. Essentially Canadian to me

 

[NyQuil]

Sanderson moved to Calgary when he was 8 and played all of his formative minor hockey there. Essentially Canadian to me

So you would have preferred if he had never played for the NTDP or Team USA?

 

[Hockeyville USA]

So you would have preferred if he had never played for the NTDP or Team USA?

Yes

 

[Mathieukferland]

The NTDP is a better development option than most CHL teams when it comes to developing skills and progressing as a player; add in the fact that, unlike the CHL draft, you get to chose where you go, and for duels it is an easy decision. I have criticisms about the NTDP to ncaa pipeline preparing players for grind of the NHL playoffs, but that’s a different matter.

The one downside is you get players who aren’t even culturally American, like Thomas Bordeleau, who speaks French as a first language, calls himself Québécois, spoke broken English at the time of his arrival at the NTDP, playing for a national team just because it represents a better development option for him for personal advancement

 

[CanadienShark]

Speaking of people born in one country, representing another... Canada should claim William Nylander.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The NTDP is a better development option than most CHL teams when it comes to developing skills and progressing as a player; add in the fact that, unlike the CHL draft, you get to chose where you go, and for duels it is an easy decision. I have criticisms about the NTDP to ncaa pipeline preparing players for grind of the NHL playoffs, but that’s a different matter.

The one downside is you get players who aren’t even culturally American, like Thomas Bordeleau, who speaks French as a first language, calls himself Québécois, spoke broken English at the time of his arrival at the NTDP, playing for a national team just because it represents a better development option for him for personal advancement

Yeah, there are some "notorious" examples like Bordeleau or Galchenyuk. Most of the kids could pass either way though, and it really just comes down to opportunity. What they feel is the best chance to advance their career. The USNTDP is a great pipeline for that even if there isn't always a strong affinity for the red, white, and blue. A lot of kids aren't all that patriotic anyway which makes a decision like this likely easier than harder.

 

[NyQuil]

The NTDP is a better development option than most CHL teams when it comes to developing skills and progressing as a player; add in the fact that, unlike the CHL draft, you get to chose where you go, and for duels it is an easy decision. I have criticisms about the NTDP to ncaa pipeline preparing players for grind of the NHL playoffs, but that’s a different matter.

The one downside is you get players who aren’t even culturally American, like Thomas Bordeleau, who speaks French as a first language, calls himself Québécois, spoke broken English at the time of his arrival at the NTDP, playing for a national team just because it represents a better development option for him for personal advancement

Just pretend he’s Cajun.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Speaking of people born in one country, representing another... Canada should claim William Nylander.

Nylander really should represent the States since he played his minor hockey until u16 in the States.

 

[CanadienShark]

Nylander really should represent the States since he played his minor hockey until u16 in the States.

Sounds like 3 want to claim him lol.

 

[JackSlater]

Most of these players don't matter but it is still something that should be ironed out. A lot of these cases would be removed by the IIHF just strengthening its existing rule so that dual citizens had to play longer in one country, basically ruling out players who are from another country playing for USA at the U18 tournament. That would end ridiculous cases like Bordeleau or Emery playing for USA, which I suppose isn't that different than Chychrun playing for Canada, but you'd still see the Hughes brothers (from Toronto) playing for USA or Harley (from New York) playing for Canada in cases where they are only citizen of one country. There are also weird cases like Pominville being called out of the blue to play for USA, which he had never considered as a born and raised Canadian adult. It's a dumb part of international hockey but there are other sports with far worse rules. Players should play for the country that developed them. They can vote wherever they are a citizen.

You can play this game all day.

How much of Jake Sanderson’s hockey ability comes from his Dad’s genetics and at-home tutelage?

You can say that he developed in the States but plenty of guys develop there who don’t have the benefit of his Canadian father and what he learned through his own Canadian development experience.

There are Canadians out there who are still mad about Brett Hull but ultimately it’s about the best players rising to the top so as to provide us with the best entertainment possible.

Most of Sanderson's ability likely came from his father and his development time in Calgary, as already said. I remember in some WJC magazine they interviewed Sanderson and it talked about how he only went to the US national team after he didn't make the Brooks Bandits. It's not like it's to the degree of Brett Hull where it changes the results of a whole tournament.

Nylander really should represent the States since he played his minor hockey until u16 in the States.

I agree actually, but then USA should also be saddled with Alex. You win some you lose some.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Players should play for the country that developed them. They can vote wherever they are a citizen.

Isn’t the whole point of playing for a nation that you have some pride towards representing that nation?

Why force someone who is saddled with living where their parents work to represent a nation they have little connection to potentially against one they have real affinity for?

Just seems like you are caught up in this weird development jingo, as if the majority of these kids had no talent at age 7 and some grassroots coach who no one has heard of really shaped them into a future NHL’er and needs credit for that in the way of them representing that specific country. The way pro athletes usually develop is they had a genetic history that predisposed them to being athletic and then they took up an early interest in a sport and worked hard through their own work to becoming good at the sport. Countries don’t really develop athletes. Their hockey system gives them opportunities to hone their craft, but the real work is on these kids.

 

[JackSlater]

Isn’t the whole point of playing for a nation that you have some pride towards representing that nation?

Why force someone who is saddled with living where their parents work to represent a nation they have little connection to potentially against one they have real affinity for?

Just seems like you are caught up in this weird development jingo, as if the majority of these kids had no talent at age 7 and some grassroots coach who no one has heard of really shaped them into a future NHL’er and needs credit for that in the way of them representing that specific country. The way pro athletes usually develop is they had a genetic history that predisposed them to being athletic and then they took up an early interest in a sport and worked hard through their own work to becoming good at the sport. Countries don’t really develop athletes. Their hockey system gives them opportunities to hone their craft, but the real work is on these kids.

Of course countries develop players... hence why the vast majority of NHLers come from so few countries. I also think your view on the pride the players have is quite naive. A lot of players will go wherever they have the best opportunity, pride or whatever else. They aren't tortured patriots "saddled" with their parents' career choices in any realistic situation. What do we actually know? Where a player was developed. I don't really care if a player raised in Canada thinks he's an American or vice versa, or a player from Sweden thinks he's Norwegian or anything else. You're from where you're from. There are cases where a player really is actually from more than one country, and in those rare cases I'm open to them having leeway.

The IIHF rules do demonstrate an inkling of this idea that players should represent the country that actually developed them, as seen in the rules for dual citizens. All they should do is lengthen the requirement for a dual to represent a country and a lot of these cases disappear.

 

[My3Sons]

Just pretend he’s Cajun.

Not unless he starts getting up at 4 am to go fishing and eats any food so long as it's fried.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Of course countries develop players... hence why the vast majority of NHLers come from so few countries. I also think your view on the pride the players have is quite naive. A lot of players will go wherever they have the best opportunity, pride or whatever else. They aren't tortured patriots "saddled" with their parents' career choices in any realistic situation. What do we actually know? Where a player was developed. I don't really care if a player raised in Canada thinks he's an American or vice versa, or a player from Sweden thinks he's Norwegian or anything else. You're from where you're from. There are cases where a player really is actually from more than one country, and in those rare cases I'm open to them having leeway.

The IIHF rules do demonstrate an inkling of this idea that players should represent the country that actually developed them, as seen in the rules for dual citizens. All they should do is lengthen the requirement for a dual to represent a country and a lot of these cases disappear.

The whole pool of hockey players that can become professionals comes from a very small number of countries and the best countries usually have the most kids that try to play the sport, so I’m not sure there’s much to your argument that it’s proven that countries give off some tangible proof of developing players when you examine the pool of NHL’ers. It’s only logical that Canada will have the most and then USA and then Sweden, Russia, Finland, and Czechia. Those are the countries around the world with the biggest presence in ice hockey.

What is even to gain from this argument? Is there some trophy because a country developed a player, if I was to take your argument? It seems stupid to force someone to have to play for a country to contribute to a statistic that realistically means very little. International sports has plenty of tones in nationalism and patriotism. Thats the point of it for most people. It neuters that to force someone to either not participate or take part for a country they don’t feel those tones towards. You become a mercenary towards a statistic a few people on a message board and no one else seem to care about.

 

[jj cale]

If it's a battle then Canada has already been knocked out.

 

[JackSlater]

The whole pool of hockey players that can become professionals comes from a very small number of countries and the best countries usually have the most kids that try to play the sport, so I’m not sure there’s much to your argument that it’s proven that countries give off some tangible proof of developing players when you examine the pool of NHL’ers. It’s only logical that Canada will have the most and then USA and then Sweden, Russia, Finland, and Czechia. Those are the countries around the world with the biggest presence in ice hockey.

What is even to gain from this argument? Is there some trophy because a country developed a player, if I was to take your argument? It seems stupid to force someone to have to play for a country to contribute to a statistic that realistically means very little. International sports has plenty of tones in nationalism and patriotism. Thats the point of it for most people. It neuters that to force someone to either not participate or take part for a country they don’t feel those tones towards. You become a mercenary towards a statistic a few people on a message board and no one else seem to care about.

It's a bizarre stance to suggest that countries don't develop players. It's tangential here, but bizarre.

Again, you're taking a very naive view of things. You are in fact promoting a mercenary approach. Doing what you can to ensure that players play for the country that they actually come from is preventing mercenary behaviour. I've literally never heard of a player refusing to play for a country because of some idealistic sense of pride you are talking about when they have only one option. We have seen plenty of demonstrable mercenaries - Hull, Deadmarsh, Foligno, Walman, Scott, Tverberg, Pominville, Brown, Day, Galchenyuk, and various others I'm sure. I'm sure there are cases along the lines of what you describe, but there will be far more cases where someone just goes with a country where they have the best opportunity. That kind of thing renders international hockey pointless. We already have the NHL where players who come from different countries play on the same team for a common goal.

Thankfully the IIHF recognizes that players should actually play for countries that they developed in to at least some degree. They should just strengthen the existing rule.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's a bizarre stance to suggest that countries don't develop players. It's tangential here, but bizarre.

Again, you're taking a very naive view of things. You are in fact promoting a mercenary approach. Doing what you can to ensure that players play for the country that they actually come from is preventing mercenary behaviour. I've literally never heard of a player refusing to play for a country because of some idealistic sense of pride you are talking about when they have only one option. We have seen plenty of demonstrable mercenaries - Hull, Deadmarsh, Foligno, Walman, Scott, Tverberg, Pominville, Brown, Day, Galchenyuk, and various others I'm sure. I'm sure there are cases along the lines of what you describe, but there will be far more cases where someone just goes with a country where they have the best opportunity. That kind of thing renders international hockey pointless. We already have the NHL where players who come from different countries play on the same team for a common goal.

Thankfully the IIHF recognizes that players should actually play for countries that they developed in to at least some degree. They should just strengthen the existing rule.

What I am describing is common in other sports. Olympic sports and football. Athletes choose who they have allegiance towards and play for that country as long as they meet basic eligibility requirements, which they almost always do. To me that makes a lot more sense and the arguments are to let athletes make their own choices than force them to play for a country they have little allegiance to so whoever is interested can brag about developing a player. The way IIHF does it is stupid as I see it.

 

[JackSlater]

What I am describing is common in other sports. Olympic sports and football. Athletes choose who they have allegiance towards and play for that country as long as they meet basic eligibility requirements, which they almost always do. To me that makes a lot more sense and the arguments are to let athletes make their own choices than force them to play for a country they have little allegiance to so whoever is interested can brag about developing a player. The way IIHF does it is stupid as I see it.

Yeah I know how soccer does it, basketball too. Hockey's system is better. Lots of mercenary behaviour in soccer where players go to a team easier to make (or perhaps $$$) rather than the country they are actually from. No one is forced to play for a country in hockey. If a player is not eligible to play for a country it means that either they are not a citizen of that country or they are a dual citizen who has barely played in that country. The player can wait and go through the necessary steps if they are compelled to do so, but since it isn't a real issue I don't think I can recall it actually happening. I sort of remember something about Sean Day pursuing American citizenship (according to his father) after they were pissed that Canada left him off some team, and something about Daniel Sprong trying to get Canadian citizenship back when he was in junior but nothing ever came of either case. It's not like Day ever turned Canada down though, but I guess Sprong probably did turn down Netherlands even if he never did play for Canada.

Anyway I don't think either person is close to convincing the other here.

 

[CanadienShark]

Most of these players don't matter but it is still something that should be ironed out. A lot of these cases would be removed by the IIHF just strengthening its existing rule so that dual citizens had to play longer in one country, basically ruling out players who are from another country playing for USA at the U18 tournament. That would end ridiculous cases like Bordeleau or Emery playing for USA, which I suppose isn't that different than Chychrun playing for Canada, but you'd still see the Hughes brothers (from Toronto) playing for USA or Harley (from New York) playing for Canada in cases where they are only citizen of one country. There are also weird cases like Pominville being called out of the blue to play for USA, which he had never considered as a born and raised Canadian adult. It's a dumb part of international hockey but there are other sports with far worse rules. Players should play for the country that developed them. They can vote wherever they are a citizen.



Most of Sanderson's ability likely came from his father and his development time in Calgary, as already said. I remember in some WJC magazine they interviewed Sanderson and it talked about how he only went to the US national team after he didn't make the Brooks Bandits. It's not like it's to the degree of Brett Hull where it changes the results of a whole tournament.



I agree actually, but then USA should also be saddled with Alex. You win some you lose some.

Sorry, but you mean Quinn, Jack, and Luke? I'm a little confused, because I thought they're just straight up American kids who've only ever played in the US.

 

[JackSlater]

Sorry, but you mean Quinn, Jack, and Luke? I'm a little confused, because I thought they're just straight up American kids who've only ever played in the US.

They played most, almost all, of their minor hockey in the Toronto area. The older two anyway. For example, their father started working for the Leafs organization around the time Jack turned five, and Jack played in the Toronto area until he was 16. As far as I know they are only American citizens though.

 

[morganpt]

Where kids play hockey growing up is irrelevant to this conversation. Kids play hockey near where their parents live - end of story - regardless of their parents' citizenships or their own citizenship.

When kids grow up and have agency to choose where they play, they will go to wherever a) they and their families believe is the best development path for them and b) where they are qualified to go. When it comes to players with multiple citizenships, they simply have more options.

If Dayne Beuker, Thomas Bordeleau, etc had two American parents, only had US citizenship, and yet lived their whole life in Canada (or any other country), never played hockey in the US, and ended up playing for the NTDP, no one would dissent.

Beuker and other duel nationals are entitled to play wherever they are qualified to play, and who are we to say that they can only play for the country they grew up in rather than play for the country of their citizenship/s...?

 

[CanadienShark]

They played most, almost all, of their minor hockey in the Toronto area. The older two anyway. For example, their father started working for the Leafs organization around the time Jack turned five, and Jack played in the Toronto area until he was 16. As far as I know they are only American citizens though.

Ah gotcha. I wasn't aware of that!

 

[NyQuil]

It depends on what your objective is when it comes to international hockey.

If the goal is to create the largest talent pool and potentially the most entertaining tournaments, you allow some freedom for players to dictate their citizenship.

If the goal is to evaluate developmental systems through head to head competition, then you don’t allow any movement at all.

Personally I prefer the former when it comes to international competition in hockey.