The Athletic - NHL awards watch: Leon Draisaitl leads a fascinating MVP field

[snag]

All around just means encompassing all factors. Not playing the PK just means you have to be better in the other areas than the ones that do. Also, playing on the PK doesn’t mean you’re any good at it. Having below-average numbers on the PK like Werenski and Makar isn’t exactly a positive.

And that isn’t to say Hughes should definitely be the Norris winner, because the other guys have had great seasons themselves, but it’s pretty asinine to eliminate him solely based on the PK.

All-round is all-round. You can't dissect it. But that there is exactly the problem anyway: it usually just goes to the highest scoring defensemen who don't play in all situations. The point of the trophy has largely been lost.

 

[barry halls]

Drai is now:
1st in 5v5 points , 1st in 5v5 goals,1st in 5v5 first assist
1st in goals overall, 1st in GWG
2nd in points and 2nd in PPG, both categories close to first
2nd in +/- also close to first
Top10 in Faceoffs won
Top20 in takeaways

If he keeps this up it could be one of the best seasons in the last 20 years.

Fun fact:
And this with his ppg almost exactly the same as his ppg without McD in the lineup over the last 7 seasons.

It's very impressive to me, though not surprising, that he is having a season like this AFTER securing a giant contract extension. It really shows his quality as a competitor when compared to the many examples of other star players who have amazing contract years, sign a big deal, and then fail to live up to it (a player he played against last night comes to mind). He's playing his ass off to hold up his end of the bargain.

 

[Toby91ca]

All around just means encompassing all factors. Not playing the PK just means you have to be better in the other areas than the ones that do. Also, playing on the PK doesn’t mean you’re any good at it. Having below-average numbers on the PK like Werenski and Makar isn’t exactly a positive.

And that isn’t to say Hughes should definitely be the Norris winner, because the other guys have had great seasons themselves, but it’s pretty asinine to eliminate him solely based on the PK.

But voting has been pretty clear. If you don't play PK....you aren't getting the Norris. Karlsson's 3 wins are super outliers....along with Hughes win last year. But even then, they had around 30+ sec of PK still....huge outliers as the lowest other than that was around 1:30....lots in the 4-5 min range.

I think it would be extremely hard for Hughes to win this year playing as little as he's played PK.

 

[Regal]

All-round is all-round. You can't dissect it. But that there is exactly the problem anyway: it usually just goes to the highest scoring defensemen who don't play in all situations. The point of the trophy has largely been lost.

It’s not dissecting it, you’re just trying to make it something it’s not. It doesn’t say “most rounded”. Your definition suggests a defenseman could be twice as good at 5v5 (where 80% of the game is played) than any other defenseman in the league and still not be considered the best defenseman because he doesn’t PK. Factor the PK into evaluations, but as I said, eliminating a defenseman from the Norris because he doesn’t PK is dumb.

But voting has been pretty clear. If you don't play PK....you aren't getting the Norris. Karlsson's 3 wins are super outliers....along with Hughes win last year. But even then, they had around 30+ sec of PK still....huge outliers as the lowest other than that was around 1:30....lots in the 4-5 min range.

I think it would be extremely hard for Hughes to win this year playing as little as he's played PK.

I think that’s likely more due to the fact that Norris level defensemen usually PK than defensemen who don’t PK getting ignored. I don’t think there’s any examples of a defenseman being one of the best at 5v5 and the PP not finishing high in Norris voting because of a lack of PK time. Karlsson and Hughes are pretty big outliers in terms of those types of players. That said, I do expect Makar and Werenski to end up ahead of him in voting if things stay similar to they are.

 

[bucks_oil]

This is including his rookie year and (I believe, Oil fans please confirm, before last nights 3 points).

Factoring out his rookie year (where he was not truly NHL-ready and got sent back to junior: 37GP, 2Goals, 7assists) and adding in last night gets you to:

GP: 22
Goals: 20
Assists: 35
Points: 55

Exactly 2.5 points per game including a quarter-season's worth of games over the last decade without McDavid.

Jeezus... It's actually pretty unbelievable. You give the guy wingers, tell him he's got to lead, and this is what you get.

Can we please never hear the "but McDavid" argument again?

 

[KlefDown]

This is including his rookie year and (I believe, Oil fans please confirm, before last nights 3 points).

no this this probably excluding, technically they weren't teammates then

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

View attachment 966472

This is including his rookie year and (I believe, Oil fans please confirm, before last nights 3 points).

Factoring out his rookie year (where he was not truly NHL-ready and got sent back to junior: 37GP, 2Goals, 7assists) and adding in last night gets you to:

GP: 22
Goals: 20
Assists: 35
Points: 55

Exactly 2.5 points per game including a quarter-season's worth of games over the last decade without McDavid.

Jeezus... It's actually pretty unbelievable. You give the guy wingers, tell him he's got to lead, and this is what you get.

Can we please never hear the "but McDavid" argument again?

Don't think thats right. I think this is looking at the Drai's games without McDavid while Mcdavid was in the league (2015-16 onward).

The biggest chunk of these games being from November 3 to February 2 of McDavid's rookie season. During that stretch Draisaitl went 9-21-30 in 37 games.

Draisaitl has therefore scored 13-21-34 in 22 games without McDavid post 2016 season.

That's a 48-78-126 pace in a full season.

 

[Toby91ca]

I think that’s likely more due to the fact that Norris level defensemen usually PK than defensemen who don’t PK getting ignored. I don’t think there’s any examples of a defenseman being one of the best at 5v5 and the PP not finishing high in Norris voting because of a lack of PK time. Karlsson and Hughes are pretty big outliers in terms of those types of players. That said, I do expect Makar and Werenski to end up ahead of him in voting if things stay similar to they are.

I didn't do a real deep dive, I simply looks at winners and PK and it seemed clear....doesn't mean guys don't get votes without it though.

 

[snag]

I

It’s not dissecting it, you’re just trying to make it something it’s not. It doesn’t say “most rounded”. Your definition suggests a defenseman could be twice as good at 5v5 (where 80% of the game is played) than any other defenseman in the league and still not be considered the best defenseman because he doesn’t PK. Factor the PK into evaluations, but as I said, eliminating a defenseman from the Norris because he doesn’t PK is dumb.



I think that’s likely more due to the fact that Norris level defensemen usually PK than defensemen who don’t PK getting ignored. I don’t think there’s any examples of a defenseman being one of the best at 5v5 and the PP not finishing high in Norris voting because of a lack of PK time. Karlsson and Hughes are pretty big outliers in terms of those types of players. That said, I do expect Makar and Werenski to end up ahead of him in voting if things stay similar to they are.

It's not my definition....whay is your definition of all-round?

HHOF - James Norris Memorial Trophy

HHOF - James Norris Memorial Trophy

www.hhof.com

 

[Regal]

I


It's not my definition....whay is your definition of all-round?

HHOF - James Norris Memorial Trophy

HHOF - James Norris Memorial Trophy

www.hhof.com

I already went over this. “All around” means encompassing all aspects, not the most rounded. Nobody is going to be the best at everything, so how much we weight 5v5, PP, PK, etc is up to the individual.

I didn't do a real deep dive, I simply looks at winners and PK and it seemed clear....doesn't mean guys don't get votes without it though.

No I get it, it’s a fair point. It’s definitely not common, I just think Karlsson and Hughes are the type of players who are outliers in that regard.

 

[Stealth1616]

MVP race is not close at all this year.

Still half a season to go and anything can happen but Drai is running away with it at the moment

 

[nturn06]

Hard to fathom why Kucherov is behind McDavid when their stats are the same and he doesn't have the Hart favourite on his team.

If your only complaint is about players ranked by them outside top 5, then it is irrelevant.

P.S. On a serious note, these ratings show what happens when people who do not really understand statistics try to make a single numerical value who tells us how good a player is.

 

[tfwnogf]

View attachment 966472

This is including his rookie year and (I believe, Oil fans please confirm, before last nights 3 points).

Factoring out his rookie year (where he was not truly NHL-ready and got sent back to junior: 37GP, 2Goals, 7assists) and adding in last night gets you to:

GP: 22
Goals: 20
Assists: 35
Points: 55

Exactly 2.5 points per game including a quarter-season's worth of games over the last decade without McDavid.

Jeezus... It's actually pretty unbelievable. You give the guy wingers, tell him he's got to lead, and this is what you get.

Can we please never hear the "but McDavid" argument again?

That's actually disgusting lmao

 

[Toby91ca]

No I get it, it’s a fair point. It’s definitely not common, I just think Karlsson and Hughes are the type of players who are outliers in that regard.

But I’d also suggest it’s nit that it’s uncommon, it doesn’t happen at all. Karlsson and Hughes outliers, but even those years they still played on the PK

 

[Coffey]

Is Drai dragging around any merchant monikers like Mack/Kuch/McD before him?

I'm sure some loser is busy digging up advanced stats lmao

 

[benfranklin]

If so, then you can imagine how much worse the Hart reasoning is for any other player right now.

Pure clickbait. McDavid should be higher as well as Kucherov ahead of him. Im fine giving Draisaitl the nod for now and even give them props for having the balls to put Makar above MacKinnon. All of Eichel, Marner, Kaprisov, and Kucherov have an argument to be ahead of Makar/MacKinnon and Draisaitl/McDavid because they have eachother.

The Canucks are a WC team at best. Just because Miller and Pettersson cant figure out their own shit doent propel Hughes up the MVP board.

Where is Eichel and Marner? Easily should be ahead of Hughes, Werenski, and Reinhart.

I like Helle being on here, but we know its hard for goalies to get much more than 5th place votes. Also Connor and Sheif are playing lights out.

IMO Kaprisov or Eichel are the true MVP's whos teams would be nowhere near where they are without them. The others have guys to fall back on.

 

[VeteranPresence]

'member when 60 goals was enough to give Matthews the Hart despite him being sixth in points (and 17 back of the leader)? If Draisaitl nets 60 this year and finishes anywhere in the top 5 in points, he should be the unanimous choice... I mean, if the Toronto media were being intellectually honest in their choice, that is.