The Armchair GM Thread - LXXVII

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Virtanen2Horvat

BoHorvat53
Nov 29, 2011
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Its a bit early but Konecny and Strome interest me next draft.

Future:

Strome/Konecny
Horvat
Guance
Cassels (The Dark horse maybe he is more capable of 4C, but definitely a bottom six player)
 

Bleach Clean

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Yes, it may not be sufficient, but looking at the top scorers in the NHL, it is almost without fail a necessary condition. A top junior scorer may not become an elite offensive player, but its very unlikely you get a top offensive player without drafting a top junior scorer.


The issue being the degree of the condition, and not the condition itself. The players we are talking about in this range all have good scoring totals. Some better than others, but none that outline a cause for concern.

A PPG player vs. a 1.21 PPG player (Virtanen vs. Ritchie). Or, 1.65PPG vs. 1.42 (Ehlers vs. Barbashev). Then with Nylander producing 7 points in 22 games in the SHL... These players all project well as scorers, as we can find previous examples of top NHLers producing at similar rates in junior.

Getzlaf, Perry, Benn, Pavelski, Sharp and Iginla immediately spring to mind. But then this could come down to your definition of "top offensive player".


I'd have taken Nichushkin in that position. Limited to CHL players, there wasn't really anyone comparable to a guy like Ehlers, for example, in terms of production. Shinkaruk is probably the closest thing, and he would have been a defensible pick there for sure (without the hindsight of a lost post-draft season).


I liked the Bo Horvat pick, so we differ in opinion there. Guess we'll see how it turns out.

Interesting to cite Shinkaruk as the comparable. You're right, he would have been a defensible pick there, but he did drop. This is where scouting projection can overrule pure production. HS can make a lot of other GMs look foolish, or he can validate their opinion. But production alone was not a determinant for him.
 
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monster_bertuzzi

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Really?

Just about the entire board favours one way small skilled players as opposed to a PWF or a 2-way C. Dig up a Bo Horvat thread.

I prefer a two way guy myself. I prefer guys who can impact games outside of the box score.

You're damn right I want us to draft offence...how did that defensive forward thing workout for us again?
 

monster_bertuzzi

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The Horvat pick? TBD.

Im not talking about the Horvat pick, Im talking about our forward crop other than the Sedins for the past few seasons - especially 2012 with Sami Pahlsson as our big move. :facepalm:

Horvat looks like a beast at both ends. Of course you need a mix of everything like LA, but they have freaking SKILL with Kopi/Gaborik/Carter etc.
 

Bleach Clean

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Im not talking about the Horvat pick, Im talking about our forward crop other than the Sedins for the past few seasons - especially 2012 with Sami Pahlsson as our big move. :facepalm:

Horvat looks like a beast at both ends. Of course you need a mix of everything like LA, but they have freaking SKILL with Kopi/Gaborik/Carter etc.


Ah, well you do need skill, true. Kopitar and Carter are quite skilled, while also being big. Gaborik is the one that stands out to me. He's not like the others, but that's because he's the 'accent' to the base (and not the base).

Put this another way, if our pipeline lacks most things, then some people would choose to _start_ building with a certain type of player. That's what this discussion seems to be about. What to start with... Some choose to start with heavy minute, 2way forwards. Others want pure skill players right away. And yet others want Dmen. It just comes down to preference.

- A 2way player can be a very good skill guy - Kopitar/Carter.

- A pure skill player can also buoy scoring - Gaborik.

- A norris Dman is often cited as a requirement - Doughty.

A great team could use all of these things. Just depends on where you want to start...
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Ah, well you do need skill, true. Kopitar and Carter are quite skilled, while also being big. Gaborik is the one that stands out to me. He's not like the others, but that's because he's the 'accent' to the base (and not the base).

Put this another way, if our pipeline lacks most things, then some people would choose to _start_ building with a certain type of player. That's what this discussion seems to be about. What to start with... Some choose to start with heavy minute, 2way forwards. Others want pure skill players right away. And yet others want Dmen. It just comes down to preference.

- A 2way player can be a very good skill guy - Kopitar/Carter.

- A pure skill player can also buoy scoring - Gaborik.

- A norris Dman is often cited as a requirement - Doughty.

A great team could use all of these things. Just depends on where you want to start...

Kopi and Carter I would call closer to pure skill than two-way, where as Mike Richards and Dustin Brown I would call excellent two-way. Gaborik and Williams pure skill. Doughty a legit #1 D obviously.

Thats how you win cups, you dont spend ****ing 4-5 million on every single one of your D like we have - where you're left with a bunch of #2's and 3's but no big ticket #1, you spend your money in the top 9 forwards.
 

pitseleh

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The issue being the degree of the condition, and not the condition itself. The players we are talking about in this range all have good scoring totals. Some better than others, but none that outline a cause for concern.

A PPG player vs. a 1.21 PPG player (Virtanen vs. Ritchie). Or, 1.65PPG vs. 1.42 (Ehlers vs. Barbashev). Then with Nylander producing 7 points in 22 games in the SHL... These players all project well as scorers, as we can find previous examples of top NHLers producing at similar rates in junior.

I'm not comparing Virtanen to Ritchie or Ehlers to Barbashev. It's a question of Virtanen/Ritchie against someone like Ehlers.

(And, to be fair, I'm not strongly in anyone player's camp. I just want to see the team make the best pick. I don't proclaim to have any idea who that is. This, for me, is more about methodology/thought process that goes into a pick.)

Getzlaf, Perry, Benn, Pavelski, Sharp and Iginla immediately spring to mind. But then this could come down to your definition of "top offensive player".

Pavelski and Sharp both had top notch offensive production in their draft year.

Benn, Perry and Getzlaf are outliers, for sure. With something like this, you're never going to have 100% accuracy - occasionally players will have unexpected development. But most players with Perry and Getzlaf's numbers don't become elite scorers in the NHL, and most elite scorers come with the type of scoring stats a player like Ehlers has, not the type of scoring a player like Virtanen has.
 

Willting*

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Kopi and Carter I would call closer to pure skill than two-way, where as Mike Richards and Dustin Brown I would call excellent two-way. Gaborik and Williams pure skill. Doughty a legit #1 D obviously.

Thats how you win cups, you dont spend ****ing 4-5 million on every single one of your D like we have - where you're left with a bunch of #2's and 3's but no big ticket #1, you spend your money in the top 9 forwards.

Kopitar is up for the Selke... He's the most two way player on their team.

I agree with the spending on the top 9. Gillis was a joke, spending enormous amounts in the defense expecting them to put up 200 points a season. What is even more laughable is he didn't see how crucial Ehrhoff was to achieving that target.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Kopitar is up for the Selke... He's the most two way player on their team.

I agree with the spending on the top 9. Gillis was a joke, spending enormous amounts in the defense expecting them to put up 200 points a season. What is even more laughable is he didn't see how crucial Ehrhoff was to achieving that target.

Kopitar is just an awesome player, you're right. And yeah, Gillis sucked.
 

Barney Gumble

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STL has attempted this same route, but failed to accent the team properly.
Except this past season's trade deadline. Their "big move" was to 'upgrade' a position they didn't particularly need to 'upgrade' - goaltending. Yeah, Halak's biggest problem is his constitution - not being able to maintain consistancy in a long marathon that is the playoffs.

Problem is....that wasn't the Blues problem (running out of gas).
 

Bleach Clean

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I'm not comparing Virtanen to Ritchie or Ehlers to Barbashev. It's a question of Virtanen/Ritchie against someone like Ehlers.

(And, to be fair, I'm not strongly in anyone player's camp. I just want to see the team make the best pick. I don't proclaim to have any idea who that is. This, for me, is more about methodology/thought process that goes into a pick.)

Pavelski and Sharp both had top notch offensive production in their draft year.

Benn, Perry and Getzlaf are outliers, for sure. With something like this, you're never going to have 100% accuracy - occasionally players will have unexpected development. But most players with Perry and Getzlaf's numbers don't become elite scorers in the NHL, and most elite scorers come with the type of scoring stats a player like Ehlers has, not the type of scoring a player like Virtanen has.


Sharp had 27 points in 34 games in his draft year, ECAC. Is this top notch production?

Pavelski had 69 points in 60 games, USHL. By that same rate, Tuch produced at a higher rate (1.23PPG) and is ranked in the mid-late 1st in this draft...

I understand the point about these rules applying more often than not. I would certainly like the Canucks picks to have strong scoring rates in the lower leagues. Who wouldn't? However, there comes a point where the projection matters more. The threshold of production vs. toolset. I think we are at that threshold with Virtanen and Ehlers, even with the .65PPG difference. If you think we are not, then what would be the PPG gap at which you would start to assess "tools"? A .40 PPG threshold? More/Less?

A key point in Virtanen's favour is how his ES scoring stacks up to E.Kane, Eberle and Shinkaruk. He has surpassed all of them with 35 ES goals. After that, it comes down to your definition of "elite scorer".
 
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biturbo19

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Gaborik is the one that sticks out to me. He's not of their mould. His 2way game is still questionable, but he did surprisingly well in the playoffs. They took care of everything else, and he was allowed to flourish. To his credit, he stepped up big.

I've always thought of Gaborik as a defensively reliable player, he just goes about it in a more "quiet" way than a lot of others. And there have been times in his career where he's been a bit disillusioned for whatever reasons and hasn't put in the effort defensively...but the ability has always been there.

I mean, the guy broke into the NHL and became a star under Jacques Lemaire...that's not exactly typical of a "questionable 2-way player".
 

Bleach Clean

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I've always thought of Gaborik as a defensively reliable player, he just goes about it in a more "quiet" way than a lot of others. And there have been times in his career where he's been a bit disillusioned for whatever reasons and hasn't put in the effort defensively...but the ability has always been there.

I mean, the guy broke into the NHL and became a star under Jacques Lemaire...that's not exactly typical of a "questionable 2-way player".


And Lemaire was constantly on him to be better defensively... Everyone in MIN knew that Gaborik was inconsistent in this regard. Be it effort, reads, positioning etc...

I don't view him as a 2way player. Haven't delved into his underlying stats too much, but optically, he's never struck me as being defense oriented. In fact, often found cheating up the ice...
 

Willting*

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And Lemaire was constantly on him to be better defensively... Everyone in MIN knew that Gaborik was inconsistent in this regard. Be it effort, reads, positioning etc...

I don't view him as a 2way player. Haven't delved into his underlying stats too much, but optically, he's never struck me as being defense oriented. In fact, often found cheating up the ice...

Yeah he cheats alright. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=51238

You don't put up his goal totals on a Wild team without favouring offense over defense.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Gotta love how someone like Gaborik gets knocked because he's maybe not so defensively inclined. Goes to show what the state of the game is right now. Leave it for the 3rd and 4th line pluggers.
 

Bleach Clean

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Gotta love how someone like Gaborik gets knocked because he's maybe not so defensively inclined. Goes to show what the state of the game is right now. Leave it for the 3rd and 4th line pluggers.


Not a knock to call a 1way player a 1way player.

I think you too referred to him as "pure skill".
 

biturbo19

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And Lemaire was constantly on him to be better defensively... Everyone in MIN knew that Gaborik was inconsistent in this regard. Be it effort, reads, positioning etc...

I don't view him as a 2way player. Haven't delved into his underlying stats too much, but optically, he's never struck me as being defense oriented. In fact, often found cheating up the ice...

Lemaire was constantly on everyone to be better defensively. That was his shtick. :laugh:

Gaborik certainly is a more offensively inclined player, and takes more risks/shortcuts at times accordingly. Nobody has ever mistaken him for a shutdown defensive player...but he's never struck me as "questionable defensively" in anything other than effort level. Much like the Sedins, they're very adequate defensive players who "cheat" quite a bit because they're offensively inclined and relied upon to make things happen in that regard...and are given some extra leash accordingly. Gaborik has always been "capable" of playing a solid 2-way game though.
 

Verviticus

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Sharp had 27 points in 34 games in his draft year, ECAC. Is this top notch production?

Pavelski had 69 points in 60 games, USHL. By that same rate, Tuch produced at a higher rate (1.23PPG) and is ranked in the mid-late 1st in this draft...

27 points in 34 games is pretty good production in the ecac. i dont think the ushl and ecac are 1:1 comparable
 

me2

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Kopitar is up for the Selke... He's the most two way player on their team.

I agree with the spending on the top 9. Gillis was a joke, spending enormous amounts in the defense expecting them to put up 200 points a season. What is even more laughable is he didn't see how crucial Ehrhoff was to achieving that target.

That's just dumb. Your argument goes

Too many mid tier D
OMG why didn't Gillis sign another mid tier D????????


Gillis' plan made sense considering how hard it is to get a #1 Dman. How many have even come on the trade market during Gillis' time? Ufas: Suter, anyone else? If you really want one you have to aim to tank for 1st overall pick to be in that top drafting group teams. You think Benning is going to be allowed to do that after what happen to Nonis and Gillis after bad years?

I'm sure Benning will find one: couple of seconds and Schroeder for OEL anyone?
 

Shareefruck

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Kopi and Carter I would call closer to pure skill than two-way, where as Mike Richards and Dustin Brown I would call excellent two-way. Gaborik and Williams pure skill. Doughty a legit #1 D obviously.

Thats how you win cups, you dont spend ****ing 4-5 million on every single one of your D like we have - where you're left with a bunch of #2's and 3's but no big ticket #1, you spend your money in the top 9 forwards.
Kopitar's a far better defensive player than Brown, IMO.
 

Bleach Clean

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Lemaire was constantly on everyone to be better defensively. That was his shtick. :laugh:

Gaborik certainly is a more offensively inclined player, and takes more risks/shortcuts at times accordingly. Nobody has ever mistaken him for a shutdown defensive player...but he's never struck me as "questionable defensively" in anything other than effort level. Much like the Sedins, they're very adequate defensive players who "cheat" quite a bit because they're offensively inclined and relied upon to make things happen in that regard...and are given some extra leash accordingly. Gaborik has always been "capable" of playing a solid 2-way game though.


Capable of playing, and actually playing, are two different things.

My impression of Gaborik is that he's been a suspect 2way player for a long time. Both watching him, and with Lemaire trying to shackle him specifically. Positioning doesn't come naturally to him. Effort level certainly doesn't. That's what makes him "questionable" to me.

I'm not sure what can be said beyond that...?


27 points in 34 games is pretty good production in the ecac. i dont think the ushl and ecac are 1:1 comparable


Need a reference point. I'm guessing most ECAC players are sub-PPG usually?

Pavelski and Tuch are both USHL players, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyways, this was about finding the points threshold, or gap, to where toolset would take over in the projection. A very hard question to answer. Each poster would have a different answer. I imagine that most scouts will as well...
 

Shareefruck

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Lemaire was constantly on everyone to be better defensively. That was his shtick. :laugh:

Gaborik certainly is a more offensively inclined player, and takes more risks/shortcuts at times accordingly. Nobody has ever mistaken him for a shutdown defensive player...but he's never struck me as "questionable defensively" in anything other than effort level. Much like the Sedins, they're very adequate defensive players who "cheat" quite a bit because they're offensively inclined and relied upon to make things happen in that regard...and are given some extra leash accordingly. Gaborik has always been "capable" of playing a solid 2-way game though.
I think you can be considered questionable defensively even given these asterisks you've pointed out.
 

Willting*

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That's just dumb. Your argument goes

Too many mid tier D
OMG why didn't Gillis sign another mid tier D????????


Gillis' plan made sense considering how hard it is to get a #1 Dman. How many have even come on the trade market during Gillis' time? Ufas: Suter, anyone else? If you really want one you have to aim to tank for 1st overall pick to be in that top drafting group teams. You think Benning is going to be allowed to do that after what happen to Nonis and Gillis after bad years?

I'm sure Benning will find one: couple of seconds and Schroeder for OEL anyone?

No...my argument was that Gillis was asking too much from the defense. He tried to build an expensive dcorps that could put up 200 points a season. However, he forgot re-sign the catalyst of that offense from the blueline which was Ehrhoff thus making his efforts to have a well rounded but productive defense faulty at best.

Due to the 20+million devoted to the blueline, it made efforts to sign or trade for a top 6 winger for Kesler less likely. Gillis' desire to build a team to fit his model of success failed because having 4 mid-tier defensemen is not the same as having a true #1 that carries your defense.

Long story short, Gillis overspent in an area of excess while never patching up an area of need, which was secondary/depth scoring.
 

Desai87

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No...my argument was that Gillis was asking too much from the defense. He tried to build an expensive dcorps that could put up 200 points a season. However, he forgot re-sign the catalyst of that offense from the blueline which was Ehrhoff thus making his efforts to have a well rounded but productive defense faulty at best.

Due to the 20+million devoted to the blueline, it made efforts to sign or trade for a top 6 winger for Kesler less likely. Gillis' desire to build a team to fit his model of success failed because having 4 mid-tier defensemen is not the same as having a true #1 that carries your defense.

Long story short, Gillis overspent in an area of excess while never patching up an area of need, which was secondary/depth scoring.

I dont remember people saying this when we went to finals or even when we won the presidents trophy after Ehrhoff left.

I loved the guy. He was my fav player when he was here but we had to choose between Bieksa and Ehrhoff and Bieksa was playing with Hamhuis on the #1 D pairing. Bieksa was also taking less money.
 
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