TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

[Jussi]

That is so absurd.

Have a wonderful day!

Has someone hijacked your account? You never posted garbage like that before. Not to mention signed your posts before either.

 

[Mimsy]

I wouldn't characterize Picard at the start of "Tapestry" as angry. He was more stern, like a commanding officer who's tired of his subordinates goofing around. At the start of "Penance" (this season's 2nd episode), there's a look of anger and disgust on his face towards Q. It's a different, more emotional reaction... and since he acknowledges at the end of "Tapestry" and "All Good Things..." that he owes Q a debt of gratitude, why such bitterness now? Q seems bitter now, himself, as well as a bit menacing. He's supposedly dying, but he and Picard just being bitter towards one another isn't fun to watch.

The ship malfunctioning isn't a good excuse, IMO. If it could've resulted in them being transported in front of hundreds of people or into a solid structure or higher in the air, killing them, they shouldn't have risked it and should've fixed the transporter first. Obviously, that isn't good for the progression of the story, but they shouldn't preach all season long about the importance of being careful if they're just going to take risks like that left and right. Making the characters look like hypocrites is what makes it bad writing.

Pointing out that Raffi was a hot mess, an alcoholic and someone who's selfish and uses people to get what she wants supports my point that she doesn't act like a Starfleet officer.

I thought that Jurati's arc was terrible. She was the quirky, nervous comic relief who somehow had the courage to connect her mind to the Borg queen and then sing a 20th-century song on stage in a sexy red dress in front a hundred people. That performance was responsible for the Borg queen gaining control of her, so, basically, she became assimilated thanks to Pat Benatar. Then, after the queen used her body to smash up Los Angeles and mortally wound her friend, she was able to convince her with a short speech to listen to reason and become a good Borg (and if she's so good at persuasion, why didn't she just persuade the queen to give them the location of the Watcher in the first place instead of risking being assimilated?). Pill did her best, but her character's arc was absurd, IMO.

Since you asked for a positive, I'll say that the acting was OK, aside from Spiner, and I was surprised that John de Lancie was as good as he was, considering that I haven't seen him in anything in decades. It looks like he's mostly done voice work, so that's why I haven't seen him and he didn't seem rusty.

You and I have differing opinions here, so I won't push for a battle of wits. You argue your position respectfully, and I appreciate it.

I'll suggest only that Raffi, while not embodying the ideal Starfleet officer, is held in high enough regard by Picard that viewers might take a leap of faith and trust his judgment. We find similar characters in all walks of life. I once had a supervisor who was highly efficient at her job and whose personal life was a mess. Anyway, Raffi was my least favorite character in the main cast, mostly because her flaws make her harder to like. At least Seven, who had little to do this season, has a history and character that make her worth rooting for.

I think there were some good scenes for sure. De Lancie and Whoopi's returns were really fun. They did a better job with Jurati's character in S2 (though S1 sort of set a low bar for her I thought).

Once again, to their credit, I think they had some interesting ideas. A modern rehash of "Tapestry" / "All Good Things" is a great idea for this type of show IMO.

However, the execution was pretty poor in my personal opinion....to the point of being my personal least favourite season of Star Trek I've ever watched (which is pretty much anything TNG and beyond, not including the most recent season of Discovery or any of Prodigy)

I'm not a hater of all modern Trek. I am very critical of Discovery but enjoyed sections of S1 and S2 a fair bit. I love Lower Decks (maybe a bit of a guilty pleasure, but I think it does what it sets out to do wonderfully).

I desperately, DESPERATELY want to love Trek. I don't watch much TV at all but Trek is my favourite franchise by a mile.



My constructive criticism (for both seasons, but particularly S2) would probably be:

1) Focus. Too many ideas, too many threads, too many cooks in the kitchen is a major problem with both seasons of Picard. There are a lot of interesting ideas here but they tried to cram them all into one season and then tie them together. The problem is, they don't flow well together at all and any connections seem like a stretch at best...not enough is done to flesh out the ideas so they end up shallow and the connections that tie them together are nonsensical and half of the characters seem to have nothing to do at any given time.

For example, S2's Q/Picard/Guinan alternate history plot, the Borg Queen plot, and the Watchers/Traveller (apparently that's the same thing now?) plot are three interesting ideas that could be three separate seasons/arcs/episodes, but instead are tied together like a plot Frankenstein that ends up messy enough to hurt the overall story.

This criticism is why I'm interested in SNW, because I think these writers would do better with an episodic format where they could tell multiple stories that are only somewhat tied together.


2) Likely a more sensitive item, but If you want to have a message in your work, make sure you're actually saying something. This probably directly ties into trying to do too much and not fleshing things out well enough, but most of the time the commentary/allegory on modern issues are either incomplete so as to say not much of anything and not be very compelling as a result, or in some cases can even come across as the opposite of what they are trying to say.

Trek has always had plenty to say politically and ethically, and was fantastic at making it compelling and thought-provoking by showing complexity and perspective. Picard falls very short of that level of quality (see: Rios ICE subplot).

------

One more minor item:

3) I know they are trying to do their own thing, but if you're going to rely extensively on existing characters and callbacks, maybe do a few minutes of research to understand basic existing details about your characters. The show loves its references but sometimes makes you wonder if they understand what they are referencing. Some big examples are Q's existing family, Seven's opinions on Borg, Guinan's previous experience with Earth and its problems...

You can call it nitpicking and I would understand your point, but if you're making these deep references to begin with you are obviously trying to invoke something in the Trek nerd crowd and...well, it comes across as sloppy and low effort.

Way more feedback than expected! Thoughtful reply. I share many of your criticisms of Picard. Still, I like the show enough that I'd welcome a multi-season run with these characters, even though I know it's not happening. Even when the show falters, I can cut generous slack. Just seeing Stewart onscreen conjures enough fond memories and goodwill that I can overlook flaws. My own debt of gratitude for what TNG gave me.

I'm excited for Season 3 with the returning TNG cast. Since season 2 wrapped, I'm surprisingly regretting some of the cast departures. I was indifferent to Rios in season 1. He wasn't given anything of consequence to do in season 2, but I liked his acting more (I was distracted by the hologram craziness of Season 1). Wish he had a third season and a better script. Alison Pill earned carte blanche from me, but alas....

Biggest point of agreement with Picard is the show's lack of focus. Begins the season with an intriguing, albeit familiar idea, has a strong opener, and then uses its momentum to drive the story into the forest. I'm mystified why the creative team doesn't see these story problems when mapping out the season. They're blatant.

I've watched every episode of DISCO. I'm more critical of it than Picard. I credit the show for making some dramatic course corrections following its first two seasons. Some things still feel off (I can't warm up to certain characters or know almost nothing about them), but I'll never miss an episode and want the show to succeed. It feels more like cosplay Star Trek than Star Trek, but I can live with that. I wish they'd do a season of episodic Trek. At the very least, maybe write a serial that doesn't involve a galaxy-wide threat.

I watched Lower Decks after reading some positive comments here. It's not entirely my thing. but season 2 trended upward. For me, the show needs to be either more funny or more serious. Pick a lane. Season 2 callbacks to 90s Trek were welcome.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Osprey]

You and I have differing opinions here, so I won't push for a battle of wits. You argue your position respectfully, and I appreciate it.

I'd like to echo that. You argue respectfully, as well, and I appreciate that. We disagree on a lot, but that's fine and I'm not trying to contradict or convince you. I argued back this time only because you directly addressed my points. I wish that I could overlook the flaws, like you. We have the same love for TNG, just different expectations.

 

[Guardian17]

Has someone hijacked your account? You never posted garbage like that before. Not to mention signed your posts before either.

@Jussi , we've had this conversation before on other threads.

I like people who disagree with me because they help me to learn and grow as a human being.


On the "Will Smith slapped Chris Rock Thread" I was convinced it was a phony stunt.

@Osprey posted a video which refuted most of my justifications for thinking that way.

I changed my mind and I respect @Osprey for having a civil discussion with me.


Instead of labeling people with a different opinion from you as "fragile, Walter Pecks who see women and other races as threats" maybe you could take a deep breath and listen to their concerns.

You know, like in Star Trek, where diplomacy is preferred over armed conflict.


@Jussi when I tell you to "have a wonderful day" I mean it because I sense you are hurting.

We are all human beings who have a short time on this planet before we are gone and forgotten.

Clearly we both like many of the same things like the NHL, Star Trek and the MCU.

I do not see you as an enemy, so, stop treating me like one.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[Commander Clueless]

Anyway, Raffi was my least favorite character in the main cast, mostly because her flaws make her harder to like. At least Seven, who had little to do this season, has a history and character that make her worth rooting for.

I agree. I think the way she was written in season one was okay. Her past and resentment towards "JL" made sense with the story line. S2 Raffi though....yikes. She was immediately unlikeable.

I will say she achieved the most impressive feat in Star Trek history - somehow becoming poor in a society that doesn't use money......

Okay 2nd most impressive. Ash Tyler somehow managed to be the most boring character in Disco despite being a walking plot twist.


I think Seven's existing character carries her a lot, because if I hadn't seen Voyager and was judging her just on Picard....she's basically a psychopath and I have no idea why this crew trusts her with anything.

Way more feedback than expected!

Sorry, I may have gone overboard.

Very good reply. I wanted to single out a key point you made:

At the very least, maybe write a serial that doesn't involve a galaxy-wide threat.

I could not agree more with this statement. Holy hell.

They keep doing this, and it just creates fatigue and rips you right out of the story.


Please, please do not do this with SNW.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

To suggest "woke" has anything to do with Roddenberry's dream is nonsense.

A couple of season ago, the woke writers on Discovery went out of their way to mock Gene Roddenberry.




Have a wonderful day!

lol, Doomcock.

lololololololol
"Hi there, my name is Doomcock. I wear a funny mask, use a voice modulator, and dog whistle rant about how woke annoying the writing and acting is. "

 

[Mimsy]

I agree. I think the way she was written in season one was okay. Her past and resentment towards "JL" made sense with the story line. S2 Raffi though....yikes. She was immediately unlikeable.

I will say she achieved the most impressive feat in Star Trek history - somehow becoming poor in a society that doesn't use money......

Okay 2nd most impressive. Ash Tyler somehow managed to be the most boring character in Disco despite being a walking plot twist.


I think Seven's existing character carries her a lot, because if I hadn't seen Voyager and was judging her just on Picard....she's basically a psychopath and I have no idea why this crew trusts her with anything.



Sorry, I may have gone overboard.

Very good reply. I wanted to single out a key point you made:



I could not agree more with this statement. Holy hell.

They keep doing this, and it just creates fatigue and rips you right out of the story.


Please, please do not do this with SNW.

Had to laugh when you referenced Ash. He was foremost in my mind when I wrote about DISCO characters I disliked. I'm glad he didn't jump into the future with the rest of crew. He likely would have been cast in the rumored Section 31 spinoff that never materialized.

Fair point about Seven. If you're new to Picard and don't know Seven's history, her character is a bit frenetic.

 

[Osprey]

Star Trek Shows Argued Over Which Would Get to Bring Wesley Crusher Back

The second season finale of Star Trek: Picard brought back a beloved . A new behind-the-scenes look at the cameo reveals that the various current Star Trek shows competed to have Welsey appear in their episodes. In the video, released via the official Star Trek website and social media channels...

comicbook.com

 

[Lshap]

Overall, I enjoyed Picard.2, with reservations.

- The worst subplot was Picard's mother's backstory. I respect trying to give his iconic character an extra layer, but I don't buy the idea of Picard as a haunted man, crippled by a forgotten childhood trauma. Picard isn't a dark, sullen Bruce Wayne – the trauma didn't define what we know of the character. Some family context is nice; this event tried too hard for relevance.

- And speaking of Picard's family... what happened to his brother, Robert? Mild inconsistencies like that didn't kill it for me, but they didn't help.

- I really liked the Borg storyline. Creative and interesting. For those questioning the Borg Queen's motives in changing her mission, remember that she was forced into a unique position. No body. No collective. She was alone, in another time, sharing a consciousness with Jurati. She had less leverage than ever. Her rethink was logical and opens the door to solid story opportunities in the future.

- I also liked Rios' storyline. Butterfly shmutterfly – I'd rethink my place in the universe if I met someone like that doctor. A bit shmaltzy, I admit, but it worked for me.

- The young Guinan was perfect, especially since Whoopie is way past playing her younger self. The moment I saw her, the looks, mannerisms, and voice were instantly recognizable.

- I agree with the comments about the Watchers. Nice idea in a season packed with too many ideas. More distracting than impactful. It would've been more elegant to give her role to the FBI agent – enlist his help with the mission and have him save Renee.

- I enjoyed the Q/Picard resolution. Just because.

 

[les Habs]

Not a fan of Picard Season 2. I felt as though they brought it to earth to save on cgi or something. Show isn't great, but I preferred the first season

 

[Osprey]

I just read an interesting article on Picard Season 2. The gist of it is that the new showrunner, Terry Matalas, essentially pulled a Rian Johnson. There's also a likely explanation for the Picard grief subplot.

Sophomore Slump — Star Trek: Picard Second Season Overview - Reactor

After show-running the first season of Star Trek: Picard, Michael Chabon buggered off to work on the TV version of his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Klay rather than continue to run the day-to-day of Picard (though he still gets an executive producer credit...

www.tor.com

 

[johnjm22]

I just read an interesting article on Picard Season 2. The gist of it is that the new showrunner, Terry Matalas, essentially pulled a Rian Johnson. There's also a likely explanation for the Picard grief subplot.

Sophomore Slump — Star Trek: Picard Second Season Overview - Reactor

After show-running the first season of Star Trek: Picard, Michael Chabon buggered off to work on the TV version of his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Klay rather than continue to run the day-to-day of Picard (though he still gets an executive producer credit...

www.tor.com

Terry knows and loves Star Trek.

He did not have free reign over the show.

I think it's pretty apparent from watching it that there was many cooks in the kitchen, which was part of the problem.

If it's true that Terry actually gets to be in control for S3, I would expect it to be the best season of the show. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will be good of course.

 

[Osprey]

Terry knows and loves Star Trek.

He did not have free reign over the show.

I think it's pretty apparent from watching it that there was many cooks in the kitchen, which was part of the problem.

If it's true that Terry actually gets to be in control for S3, I would expect it to be the best season of the show. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will be good of course.

Well, we heard the same thing about Michael Chabon, who had sole control of S1. I imagine that most of the people involved in making these series know and love Star Trek. There are also surely people who know and love Star Trek who liked season 2.

Remember, Nicholas Meyer didn't know or love Star Trek before he made arguably the best Star Trek movie. I'm not saying to put such a person in charge of these series, but knowing and loving Star Trek might be a little overrated. You can be new to a franchise and "get" it and you can be a longtime fan and not.

Also, the third season was developed at the same time as the second and shot back-to-back with it, so I doubt that Matalas has much free reign. I suspect that the same cooks were in the kitchen for both seasons and Matalas is just being given more of the credit for the third.

 

[johnjm22]

Well, we heard the same thing about Michael Chabon, who had sole control of S1. I imagine that most of the people involved in making these series know and love Star Trek. There are also surely people who know and love Star Trek who liked season 2. It really doesn't mean much, IMO.

Remember, Nicholas Meyer didn't know or love Star Trek before he made arguably the best Star Trek movie. I'm not saying to put such a person in charge of these series, but knowing and loving Star Trek might be a little overrated. You can be new to a franchise and "get" it and you can be a fan of it your whole life and not.

Also, the third season was developed at the same time as the second and shot back-to-back with it, so I doubt that Matalas has much free reign. I suspect that the same cooks were in the kitchen for both seasons and Matalas is just being given more of the credit for the third.

I don't think Chabon had sole control of S1. Maybe there was reports saying he did, but I think it's pretty obvious from watching the season that it was being pulled in different directions and had many influences behind the scenes.

I know they're are ST fans that like S2. A few of them in this thread. But with all due respect to said fans, I don't actually believe them. I think they've convinced themselves to like it.

I agree that knowing and loving ST is not a prerequisite for making good ST, but I can't imagine someone who really loves Trek making S2 if they had full control.

You're right to be skeptical of course. The people running Star Trek have given us no reason to take their word for anything.

Interesting note about Terry, he watches RLM. The guys at RLM have been absolutely trashing S2. Much of their criticism has been right on point. In a PIC S2 episode, there was a line of dialogue "I'm half in the bag". One of RLM's shows is called Half in the Bag. Makes me wonder.

 

[Mimsy]

I know they're are ST fans that like S2. A few of them in this thread. But with all due respect to said fans, I don't actually believe them. I think they've convinced themselves to like it.

Ridiculous. Speak for yourself.

 

[Osprey]

Today is the 40th anniversary of the release of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (June 4th, 1982) and it'll be returning to theaters for a very limited time in September.

'Star Trek' Celebrates 'The Wrath of Khan' 40th Anniversary With the "Summer of Sweet Revenge" [Exclusive]

'Star Trek' has teamed up with Funko and Fathom Films to roll out an impressive slate of activities and celebrations.

collider.com

Also, in unrelated news, I read that DS9 will be leaving US Netflix on July 2nd, so you have a month to binge it if you care to.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Overall, I enjoyed Picard.2, with reservations.

- And speaking of Picard's family... what happened to his brother, Robert? Mild inconsistencies like that didn't kill it for me, but they didn't help.

We're his whole family killed in a fire offscreen in Generations?

Today is the 40th anniversary of the release of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (June 4th, 1982) and it'll be returning to theaters for a very limited time in September.

'Star Trek' Celebrates 'The Wrath of Khan' 40th Anniversary With the "Summer of Sweet Revenge" [Exclusive]

'Star Trek' has teamed up with Funko and Fathom Films to roll out an impressive slate of activities and celebrations.

collider.com

Also, in unrelated news, I read that DS9 will be leaving US Netflix on July 2nd, so you have a month to binge it if you care to.

Finished season 5 of DS9. Seasons 5 and 6 of DS9 have got to be my favorites from all the Star Trek series.

 

[Nolan Bombgardener]

We're his whole family killed in a fire offscreen in Generations?

I think Lshap meant child JL and how it was only him, his mom and dad when Robert is his older brother and one would think would make an appearance in his childhood memories.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

I think Lshap meant child JL and how it was only him, his mom and dad when Robert is his older brother and one would think would make an appearance in his childhood memories.

Ah my mistake apologies

 

[Guardian17]

Today is the 40th anniversary of the release of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (June 4th, 1982) and it'll be returning to theaters for a very limited time in September.

'Star Trek' Celebrates 'The Wrath of Khan' 40th Anniversary With the "Summer of Sweet Revenge" [Exclusive]

'Star Trek' has teamed up with Funko and Fathom Films to roll out an impressive slate of activities and celebrations.

collider.com

Also, in unrelated news, I read that DS9 will be leaving US Netflix on July 2nd, so you have a month to binge it if you care to.

 

[Osprey]

^Dude, have you heard of spoiler tags? I've been waiting 40 years to see this in the theater and you just gave away the ending.

 

[Jussi]

Robert Meyer Burnett just said on The John Campea Show that he's seen "something" from Picard season 3 and he thinks it's the Top Gun Maverick of Star Trek. He was blown away.

 

[johnjm22]

Yeah if you put someone in charge who knows and loves ST, and has some talent, you might actually get something good.

S3 of Picard has potential. Sounds like we're finally getting a singular vision, the lack of which has been CBS-Trek's biggest problem.

I listened to Terry talk at length about it. I'm actually looking forward to it.

 

[Osprey]

Yeah if you put someone in charge who knows and loves ST, and has some talent, you might actually get something good.

S3 of Picard has potential. Sounds like we're finally getting a singular vision, the lack of which has been CBS-Trek's biggest problem.

I listened to Terry talk at length about it. I'm actually looking forward to it.

Bless your optimistic heart, johnjm22. We know how this is going to end, though...
UsKurtzman.

 

[johnjm22]

Bess your optimistic heart, johnjm22. We know how this is going to end, though...
UsKurtzman.

Kurtzman will be listed as a producer for S3, because it's obligatory, but he had pretty much nothing to do with it.