The Advanced Stats Thread Episode VII: An Ode to the Sanity of Silverfish
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
I'm the only one who will admit this, but yeah, we pretty much think NHL teams are stupid. Question asked, question answers.
Go die on somebody else's hill.
Go die on somebody else's hill.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
I don't want to ignore Jon, he's a solid poster.
I just don't wanna have this argument in here. This thread was established so those arguments wouldn't happen.
So you want a safe space where the stats can never be questioned? Honestly, HG brought up ONE f***ing player that he thinks the stats didn't capture correctly. Do you realize that mathematicians and scientists spend their entire existence questioning whether their beliefs work under every possible circumstance? Or do you think that they just agree that the world is what we believe it to be in 2018 and close their eyes and put their fingers in their ears if someone brings up a counterpoint? Meanwhile you read some guy's blog and those beliefs can't be challenged even for one player. Do you realize how ludicrous that is?
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
He doesn't post in this thread and he came to argue with us with a tired old subjective counterpoint. Nobody asked.
A safe space for advanced stats is EXACTLY what this thread is. It's in the title. It's here for our sanity.
Kakko
Formerly Chytil
I thought the thread was also supposed to contain the arguments, and keep it out of other threads?
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
If so, then I think it should work the other way as well.
We should have a place for discussion without reading some form of "I watch him play" and appeal to authority.
What sanity? It's a hockey message board! If someone questioning advanced stats hurts your sanity you need to probably stop posting for a little bit.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Maybe don't question advanced stats in the advanced stats thread?
Shocking concept, I know.
Maybe don't question Nazi Germany in Nazi Germany. Maybe don't question Soviet Russia in Soviet Russia.
No advanced stats that I'm a big proponent of are not either of those things. But the second we stop questioning things is the second we move backwards and not forwards. Only sheep don't question things.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
If you question them -in this thread- then bring me some stats or some analysis to show me where they're wrong. That happens all the time in here without any trouble.
If you're going the route of "I've seen the guy play I've decided the numbers are wrong" then don't expect civility.
So does it work both ways? In any other thread if people say XYZ player is great because of the eye test should you not expect civility if you bring up advanced stats to show them that they're wrong? Asking for a friend.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
If there were an eye test thread (hey, have at it) I wouldn't go in there any say
"Your stance is dumb"
"NHL execs disagree"
"You just don't get it"
We were having an extremely civil discussion with another poster on what the stats miss with Franson until Jon decided to come in and stir the shit.
He didn't just disagree. He expressed sentiments against the very topic of the thread. Derailing threads is against the rules.
silverfish
got perma'd
This is a major reason why this thread began in the first place. Because posters were bringing up advanced stats in non advanced stats threads and then getting ridiculed for using advanced stats and derailing the thread. It got to the point where we couldn't discuss advanced stats in PGTs and I had to only post the post-game chart dumps in here because people looked at a chart that said Vesey had a bad shot-attempt game when he scored a goal and that charts and me are stupid. Pages and pages. So, that's why this thread is here.
I don't think @Machinehead is so wrong here to demand that there is some sort of standard in this thread. If you're going to question Advanced Stats in the Advanced Stats thread, it needs to be more of a counterpoint than: "This player sucks because I watched him suck and he's not on an NHL team". It's not that they are unfair points to make but in this thread that relies on objectivity, if you're going to make that point, it needs to be backed up by something else.
Actually, that's not true. It doesn't need to be backed up, but it is expected that you back it up.
If you want to talk about how Franson sucks because you watched him play five games and he's not signed yet, do that in the spec thread or around the NHL?
But as you I believe have pointed out, every other thread is an eye test thread, that's why you need this thread. You have over and over offered a different perspective in other threads, including attacking eye test beliefs. I actually appreciate it because it's nice to have a different opinion. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
silverfish and I basically don't post anywhere else these days, save for draft day and July 1st.
silverfish
got perma'd
Not totally true. My troll game is on point, but I definitely avoid posting substance anywhere but here, or try to, that's for sure.silverfish and I basically don't post anywhere else these days, save for draft day and July 1st.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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To add to what @silverfish said:
Use the disagreement of viewpoints as a way to come up with ways to make communication about stats better. If you don't like them, at least explain why so we can discuss it like adults.
Like re: his Vesey point, I still stand by that he's not as bad as it showed because he was able to generate ixGF at a high rate at 5v5. That's useful to me in a 3rd line scoring forward when you factor in that he has size and speed. He's a bad shot share player, but he's useful in transition and around the net.
Use the disagreement of viewpoints as a way to come up with ways to make communication about stats better. If you don't like them, at least explain why so we can discuss it like adults.
Like re: his Vesey point, I still stand by that he's not as bad as it showed because he was able to generate ixGF at a high rate at 5v5. That's useful to me in a 3rd line scoring forward when you factor in that he has size and speed. He's a bad shot share player, but he's useful in transition and around the net.
Well Machinehead still posts in every GDT and PGT about advanced stats, which I'm happy about but he does do that. And I think questioning the validity of advanced stats in a certain case (Jon questioned it in the case of ONE player) should be within the scope of this thread. Limitations of advanced stats seems to be in the territory of advanced stats. If Jon thinks that advanced stats in this ONE situation are misleading how would him bringing up advanced stats make sense?
silverfish
got perma'd
Question them. Question them all god damn day. That's the only way I learn.
But if your counterpoint is only 'eye-test' and 'appeal to authority' I don't know what to do with that.
silverfish and I basically don't post anywhere else these days, save for draft day and July 1st.
Maybe I'm behind the times, if so I apologize.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
I don't think it's a problem for people to come in here and question advanced stats. Outright attacking them, however, is a different story (unless there is a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally solid argument against a certain stat or two).
This shouldn't a safe space for advanced stats. Discussion/critics/whatever of advanced stats should be encouraged here.
Advanced stats are still not an exact science in hockey, but it's making progress. Discussion about what works/what doesn't, as well as discussing the world of advanced stats in general, as long as it's civil, helps everyone learn and should be the focus here.
No echo chamber, please. That helps no one and just causes more rifts and arguments that anyone needs in their life.
This shouldn't a safe space for advanced stats. Discussion/critics/whatever of advanced stats should be encouraged here.
Advanced stats are still not an exact science in hockey, but it's making progress. Discussion about what works/what doesn't, as well as discussing the world of advanced stats in general, as long as it's civil, helps everyone learn and should be the focus here.
No echo chamber, please. That helps no one and just causes more rifts and arguments that anyone needs in their life.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
silverfish says overpay good players and underpay bad players. I like that. But allow me to add another layer.
Are they really overpayed? I mean, almost every player is overpaid if you go by the reaction to their contracts. Almost all of them.
If that's what they get now, and that's what the market dictates now, then they're not overpaid. Who's to say JVR isn't worth 7 when elite players get 10.5 minimum?
I would argue that the team cap celling isn't keeping up with these demands at all, but that's a different argument from saying the players are overpaid.
Are they really overpayed? I mean, almost every player is overpaid if you go by the reaction to their contracts. Almost all of them.
If that's what they get now, and that's what the market dictates now, then they're not overpaid. Who's to say JVR isn't worth 7 when elite players get 10.5 minimum?
I would argue that the team cap celling isn't keeping up with these demands at all, but that's a different argument from saying the players are overpaid.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
I agree with this sentiment but once it becomes "I said so" and "other people disagree" I think it becomes an attack.
Those arguments died in 2016 with the Dan Girardi arguments and we've all moved on.
silverfish
got perma'd
extreme Daniel Day Lewis voice in There Will be Blood yelling at Eli
PLAYER USAGE, MY BOY
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