Team Toughness

[zeke]

Team toughness (Clifford, simmonds) is what cost us the game tying goal against the avs.

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

Team toughness (Clifford, simmonds) is what cost us the game tying goal against the avs.

This is the problem with this team. They have 2 “tough” guys who play 8 minutes a game. That isn’t team toughness. The whole team needs to be tough. Finishing checks. Taking hits to make plays. Physically battling for pucks. Unless the entire team, and I mean literally the entire team, starts doing this, we’ll go nowhere in the playoffs. This is what the Bruins were doing in the two series against us. No matter who was forchecking, you knew they were gonna finish their hits. Why do you think so many of our collapses involve turnovers by our defensemen? It’s because they know they’re going to get hit and made a dumb move, instead of making the right play and taking the hit

 

[ToneDog]

This is the problem with this team. They have 2 “tough” guys who play 8 minutes a game. That isn’t team toughness. The whole team needs to be tough. Finishing checks. Taking hits to make plays. Physically battling for pucks. Unless the entire team, and I mean literally the entire team, starts doing this, we’ll go nowhere in the playoffs. This is what the Bruins were doing in the two series against us. No matter who was forchecking, you knew they were gonna finish their hits. Why do you think so many of our collapses involve turnovers by our defensemen? It’s because they know they’re going to get hit and made a dumb move, instead of making the right play and taking the hit

You mean they have to play outside their comfort zone because playoff teams are not going to allow them to play shinny ??

 

[zeke]

Why do you think so many of our collapses involve turnovers by our defensemen?

because we've had so much trouble scoring that they've been forced to gamble a bit in the attack.

It’s because they know they’re going to get hit and made a dumb move, instead of making the right play and taking the hit

Seems like their issues have come from holding the puck for too long and trying to make the extra plays, not coughing up the puck quickly because they're scared of being hit.

You don't hold onto the puck longer and try to make extra plays when you're scared of being hit.

 

[zeke]

You mean they have to play outside their comfort zone because playoff teams are not going to allow them to play shinny ??

what's their comfort zone and how have the teams that have beaten us this year made us play outside it?

 

[ToneDog]

what's their comfort zone and how have the teams that have beaten us this year made us play outside it?

Teams generally don't turn it up during the regular season. The closest we came to playing a playoff hockey game was against Minny, Winnipeg and Boston. We were 1-1-1. The Tampa games were close.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The only thing that matters and counts in this hockey played now is getting points (everything else is useless) .. as season closes and teams fight for playoff spots then game picks up pace and gets tougher .. then in playoffs refs change da way game is called and let players decide games on da ice .. skill gets trumped and board men rule .. teams need to be built to get enough regular season points and then have enough speed and toughness to succeed in playoff hockey .. this team will not be allowed to play a passing puck possession game in playoffs .. so we need to build a D core for playoffs in next month before TDL

 

[zeke]

The closest we came to playing a playoff hockey game was against Minny, Winnipeg and Boston.

What does this mean?

 

[ToneDog]

What does this mean?

If you are being genuine and not trolling, read post #77. If that does not give you what you are looking for, I can't help you.

 

[zeke]

If you are being genuine and not trolling, read post #77. If that does not give you what you are looking for, I can't help you.

Trying to understand what you're saying is all - are saying that those 3 games (and only those 3 games) were particularly physical? that that's what made them playoffs hockey? or was it something else?

 

[weems]

I guess it depends on what you consider team toughness.

Is it a bunch of goons running around looking for fights and trying to intimidate your opponent or is is having a entire team that is willing to play a certain style that involves taking hits to make plays, forechecking and finishing your hits, taking the puck directly to the front of the net when you know you're going to get smoked, blocking shots, winning 50/50 puck races that will end in physical contact etc etc.

We have added some good players that fit that mold in Kase, Bunting but I dont really believe those are the ones that will decide our ultimate fate. I believe if we're going to win 4 intense playoffs rounds where with each advancement the games only get tougher (You wont be playing with as much health and strength in round 2 as you did in round 1) it's going to have to come from our best players, the ones who get the most icetime and will be the ones who set the entire tone for a series.

I hope our core 4 can bring this type of play where the necessary physical commitment is needed because we will face teams that will be attempting to play a certain way against us and we know the refs put their whistles away come playoff time. I wouldnt blame anyone if they arent totally sold on these 4 players being able to do that but they're still relatively young and should have certainly learned by now what it takes to win in the postseason.

 

[Fogelhund]

The only thing that matters and counts in this hockey played now is getting points (everything else is useless) .. as season closes and teams fight for playoff spots then game picks up pace and gets tougher .. then in playoffs refs change da way game is called and let players decide games on da ice .. skill gets trumped and board men rule .. teams need to be built to get enough regular season points and then have enough speed and toughness to succeed in playoff hockey .. this team will not be allowed to play a passing puck possession game in playoffs .. so we need to build a D core for playoffs in next month before TDL

There is no question, that our best players, need to be paying at their best, and be ready for the increased physicality in the playoffs. That being said... Nylander was last year, Tavares was out, and Matty had the wrist injury making his shot very poor... had Matty been fine, he would have projected to score 6 more goals against Montreal (If you assume his regular shooting percentage), and Marner would have had similar assists. It was basically Tavares out and Matty being injured that doomed us last year. Some piece of bad luck. I think it Matty is healthy, and Tavares was playing, we'd be talking about these things differently.

But, we still haven't proven they can win in the playoffs, even though we "should" have, and there are legitimate reasons we failed last year. No question, the pressure is on them, and our top four need to perform here. I think most of our team is good, but I do agree with my man @JT AM da real deal , that a physical D man would be an addition we wouldn't regret... if it's the right one. I hate to infect this thread, with Evander Kane talk, but this is a power forward, who plays a physical game and size.. he can help wear down a D core.... No cost... yes, I get all the reasons not to bring him on, but a free player, on minimum... who brings exactly what we need on the ice, and we lack that element now.... I mean... jeez...

Then on D, we don't need the sexiest name... but I'd look at Andrew Peeke from Columbus... young, cost controlled, being heavily used in the D zone, decent PK, size... I think he's another guy, who in a couple of years, people are going to talk about him, like Weegar... maybe not the offensive side, which is a bonus, but the physical brand of hockey, and defensive capabilities. If you can pull a young guy like that, who is doing pretty well, with heavy use, that's a big win.


Hakanpaa, Lyubushkin, even Larsson at 50% (But that would cost a ton)... I just think we need to upgrade on Holl, and bring more sandpaper to the table. It's a very good team, but we can improve...

 

[ToneDog]

Trying to understand what you're saying is all - are saying that those 3 games (and only those 3 games) were particularly physical? that that's what made them playoffs hockey? or was it something else?

The Jets played the dirtiest game and basically ran us out of the building. I was impressed by their comeback vs Minny (very high intensity) and they played well vs Boston (again higher intensity) although the Bruins were not as physical as the Jets. Wins against sadsacks such as Ottawa and Edmonton (minus 97) are good for the 2 points but they don't help us get ready for playoffs. The 3 games I mentioned are great win or lose.

 

[glue]

If 'Team Toughness is referring to the physical aspect of this team, then I really don't think there's anything for us to 'add' there. Guys like Simmonds/Ritchie are sufficient. Plus gritty players like Kerfoot, Bunting, Kamph, Kase are exactly what we need. To me this comes down to 'mental' toughness and its their stars that need to show that they will be as good if not better in the playoffs than in the regular season. Last year Nylander showed that he can play as well and even step up, Matthews was ok & Marner was flat out not good (I would argue he was good defensively, but we need more from him). This year if the big 4 remain healthy & all 4 play to their standards, I don't care who we face, I believe we can beat anyone. So to me its the 'mental' toughness from our top guys that has to show, don't play afraid, play confident, play the way they are more than capable of playing. And to be fair, we need the entire team to play well under pressure, no freebies!

 

[JT AM da real deal]

There is no question, that our best players, need to be paying at their best, and be ready for the increased physicality in the playoffs. That being said... Nylander was last year, Tavares was out, and Matty had the wrist injury making his shot very poor... had Matty been fine, he would have projected to score 6 more goals against Montreal (If you assume his regular shooting percentage), and Marner would have had similar assists. It was basically Tavares out and Matty being injured that doomed us last year. Some piece of bad luck. I think it Matty is healthy, and Tavares was playing, we'd be talking about these things differently.

But, we still haven't proven they can win in the playoffs, even though we "should" have, and there are legitimate reasons we failed last year. No question, the pressure is on them, and our top four need to perform here. I think most of our team is good, but I do agree with my man @JT AM da real deal , that a physical D man would be an addition we wouldn't regret... if it's the right one. I hate to infect this thread, with Evander Kane talk, but this is a power forward, who plays a physical game and size.. he can help wear down a D core.... No cost... yes, I get all the reasons not to bring him on, but a free player, on minimum... who brings exactly what we need on the ice, and we lack that element now.... I mean... jeez...

Then on D, we don't need the sexiest name... but I'd look at Andrew Peeke from Columbus... young, cost controlled, being heavily used in the D zone, decent PK, size... I think he's another guy, who in a couple of years, people are going to talk about him, like Weegar... maybe not the offensive side, which is a bonus, but the physical brand of hockey, and defensive capabilities. If you can pull a young guy like that, who is doing pretty well, with heavy use, that's a big win.


Hakanpaa, Lyubushkin, even Larsson at 50% (But that would cost a ton)... I just think we need to upgrade on Holl, and bring more sandpaper to the table. It's a very good team, but we can improve...

Bottom line to me if Holl is starting in out top 4 come playoff time and we have not added in that role then it will be another 1st round exit .. I know everyone likes da come from nothing and nowhere aspect of Holl (we all cheer for da little guy) but he does not have skating skills, puck skills, shooting skills, hitting skills or toughness to be a top 4 nhl defender .. yes he can simplify and maybe play a 6th (better as a backup 7th) but a Cup contending team does not have a Holl on its top 4 .. sorry not close to good enough

 

[zeke]

The Jets played the dirtiest game and basically ran us out of the building. I was impressed by their comeback vs Minny (very high intensity) and they played well vs Boston (again higher intensity) although the Bruins were not as physical as the Jets. Wins against sadsacks such as Ottawa and Edmonton (minus 97) are good for the 2 points but they don't help us get ready for playoffs. The 3 games I mentioned are great win or lose.

WPG, MIN, BOS seems a strange selection for "playoffs tough" teams tbh. They're not super elite teams or super tough teams.

Boston game is weird to mention - we crushed them.

the minny and winnipeg back to back came at our heaviest point in the schedule, after we had just gone on a 14-2-0 streak, but led the league in games played and had a number of injured guys in and out of the lineup.

we stayed with a similarly hot Wild team and came back from a sloppy start, and then on the 2nd night of the back to back had Woll in net and he imploded a bit, and we couldn't score enough to compensate.

Those weren't even close to our toughest games of the season.

Easily the opponent that has made us look the worst this year, more than once, is Pittsburgh. Even with Sid. Also TB made us look real bad in one game, though we made them look real bad in the other. -

And in general i'm not sure where you get the idea that the leafs only win against sadsacks. Some of our worst games of the year have come against the sadsacks (OTT, BUF, CHI). And we've been good against both the good teams (TB, VGK, BOS), and against the tough defensive teams like NYI.

 

[ToneDog]

WPG, MIN, BOS seems a strange selection for "playoffs tough" teams tbh. They're not super elite teams or super tough teams.

Boston game is weird to mention - we crushed them.

the minny and winnipeg back to back came at our heaviest point in the schedule, after we had just gone on a 14-2-0 streak, but led the league in games played and had a number of injured guys in and out of the lineup.

we stayed with a similarly hot Wild team and came back from a sloppy start, and then on the 2nd night of the back to back had Woll in net and he imploded a bit, and we couldn't score enough to compensate.

Those weren't even close to our toughest games of the season.

Easily the opponent that has made us look the worst this year, more than once, is Pittsburgh. Even with Sid. Also TB made us look real bad in one game, though we made them look real bad in the other. -

And in general i'm not sure where you get the idea that the leafs only win against sadsacks. Some of our worst games of the year have come against the sadsacks (OTT, BUF, CHI). And we've been good against both the good teams (TB, VGK, BOS), and against the tough defensive teams like NYI.

We've laid a few eggs this year (see Pens game). My point is that they played with the most intensity vs those 3 teams and vs TB.

Not sure where you came up with me claiming we only beat sad sacks. I said we do not get much out of games like the last games vs Ottawa and Edmonton. We slept through those games whereas we upped our intensity vs Minny, Winny and Boston. Those are the types of games that tell me whether they can up their games in the playoffs. Tonight and Saturday should be those types of games if Vegas and STL bring their best.

 

[Knies iT]

Team toughness (Clifford, simmonds) is what cost us the game tying goal against the avs.

Players that can hardly handle a regular shift hurt the team, exactly the point. The team lacks physicality in meaningful areas of the lineup because they've attempted to fill the "toughness" quota with 4th line goons that can't play.

If Ritchie/Clifford are going to sit in favour of Engvall, which is likely the best lineup, then Simmonds is the only player in the lineup with that element. Muzzin's physicality is declining rapidly since the start of last year.

Furthers the need for a physical top 4 D or top 9 F.

 

[zeke]

Players that can hardly handle a regular shift hurt the team, exactly the point. The team lacks physicality in meaningful areas of the lineup because they've attempted to fill the "toughness" quota with 4th line goons that can't play.

If Ritchie/Clifford are going to sit in favour of Engvall, which is likely the best lineup, then Simmonds is the only player in the lineup with that element. Muzzin's physicality is declining rapidly since the start of last year.

Furthers the need for a physical top 4 D or top 9 F.

The evidence for this lack of toughness is losing to....the least tough team in the league.

 

[supermann_98]

Nobody got a lineup to post yet? Liljegren better be in

 

[Leafsfan74]

This will be answered, once again, this upcoming playoff.

If they fail, once again in the playoffs, only vital changes will make a difference.

As it were, there is a part of me that has accepted that MLSE runs their corporation like, well, a corporation.

Thus, they probably prefer marketable, "safe" types over other "less desirable" types.

They may find it increasingly difficult to attract mentally strong men of fortitude if they continue to fold when the game enters the trenches.

Just saying " we really want it more" will mean little until they show this to be true against an opponent in a seven game series.

 

[Gabriel426]

I don’t think it was toughness that caused first round exits in the past few years. Our core, leaders and top stars need to show up and dominate like they do in the regular season.
AM can’t just score ONE goal in a 7 games series. MM needs to be better.
Willie needs to continue the way he dominated in last playoffs. While Reilly needs to show he is a true No.1 Dman. Jack needs to make saves like he can.

 

[Knies iT]

The evidence for this lack of toughness is losing to....the least tough team in the league.

And how do they look in the playoffs?

 

[NoGoalCaufield]

The team doesn't need to find more toughness, the star players do

This exactly. Although a lot of people won’t agree, taking the body is a very important part of the game which is even more important in the playoffs. Montreal last year everyone finished checks, from KK to Weber to Suzuki. Tampa Bay, same story.

Until I see players like Nylander and Marner finishing a hit, it’s hard to believe they will be successful in the playoffs.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Our no.4 can't stay upright if a forechecker touches him, so I'm a no in this poll.