Team Toughness

[Knies iT]

Polarizing topic on here.

Camp1 seem to think it’s unnecessary/not a current team need and that it's not a reason why the Leafs have lost when it matters.

Camp2 want to see it improved and view it as a significant weakness come playoff time. I fall in this group.

Current lineup, for reference:

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Mikheyev - Kampf - Kase
Ritchie - Spezza - Simmonds
[Clifford, Engvall]

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren
[Dermott]​

• Is this team physical enough for a long playoff run?
• If not, where does this lineup need an injection of physicality at the TDL and/or off-season? Be realistic.

Click to read more...

 

[LeafChief]

I think the D needs less Holl and the replacement to be a real tough guy to play against.

 

[PromisedLand]

Team toughness to me means not just being physical but also be able to take the body to make plays because in playoffs making fancy plays never cut it because pretty much everybody is dialed in. Another aspect IMO of team toughness is mental aspect and mindset i.e. work through the adversity to get the job done.

Do I believe we have team toughness? No

Will I happily eat crow? Oh Hell Yes!!!

We don't really have cap room to make any maneuver; we will go as far as our the 4 guys take us. And of course Campbell.

 

[Leafidelity]

The team doesn't need to find more toughness, the star players do

 

[PromisedLand]

The team doesn't need to find more toughness, the star players do

This is the right answer!

 

[Knies iT]

The team doesn't need to find more toughness, the star players do

Agree and disagree. Nylander's willingness to engage and strength on the puck have progressed more than the other core players, but you can't change a tiger's stripes. They will never be physically imposing players and don't necessarily have to be. Agree that you need more from them though.

Realistically you have to better insulate them. Love the player but Bunting cannot be your most physical top 9 forward and we've seen in year's past that a tough 4th line does not equate to overall team toughness.

IMO 2LW and 4RD are the primary areas of need without changing the entire line/pair's identity.

 

[Nineteen67]

I say yes. They showed us they can be physical, they’ve shown they can stick up for each other, but the question is will they? Do they care enough to fight for each other?

You’ll never see the superstar on a Cup champion team being rag-dolled, like Chiarot did last year to Matthews, without a vicious response. They guys on the ice have to do it. Not a fluke Brayden Point has his name, in two spots, on the Cup.

 

[Torontonian]

I think the D needs less Holl and the replacement to be a real tough son of a bitch to play against.

Needs to be able to play though, there are players such as Gudbranson that are "tough to play against", but are really bad hockey players. I do think an upgrade at Holl and probably in top 6 to move bunting down the lineup is needed.

 

[LeafChief]

Needs to be able to play though, there are players such as Gudbranson that are "tough to play against", but are really bad hockey players. I do think an upgrade at Holl and probably in top 6 to move bunting down the lineup is needed.

100%. Not looking for a Gudbranson. More of a Manson from 2-3 years ago when he was good.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Can the forwards play a different style when space disappears? A team needs balance and different looks as required. That question has yet to be answered by this group, though I see some definitely improvements. Kase and Bunting are two additions who drive some drive on the puck.

One stat I liked when Marner returned is that he tied for the team lead in hits that game with three. It's clearly just one game and possibly even a major anomaly. Regardless, just maybe during his time off he watched the games and considered the thought "I have to get out of my comfort zone just a little bit".

They can outskill any team on any given night, the old adage "who wants it more" truly matters. If a player doesnt have a point, but gives a few hits (when the situation makes sense), some blocked shots, takeaways and great PK work? That can spell the difference between a Cup or a First Round exit. That is how closely teams are matched.

Also, who wouldn't want a Slavin on their backend come playoffs? Who wouldn't want a physical Holl and Muzzin of a year ago? Who doesn't enjoy watching this the team from time to time cycle hard and hems the opposition in their zone for two minutes? That is the "toughness" and commitment I look for. I hope Dubas can find a stud at the deadline.

You are engaged when you have skin in the game, when you dislike your opponent. "I am going to give and take some hits, I am going to dump it in from time to time and make the opposition go 90 feet whenever they clog the neutral zone". It's outworking the opponent, committing to the puck with authority and wearing them down because you are in better shape and want it more.

The skill will then dictate the result since the will to win is stronger than the opponents. My concern will remain until proven otherwise, that some don't bring it when the game gets into the alley. If refs call a straight game, it wouldn't matter as much.

 

[Dave92]

Matthews was pretty physical the past playoffs.

But the fact that Matthews, Nylander and Marner have player what 50-60 years of hockey combined and there is no evidence of any of them ever being in a fight. Does say a lot of the type of core this team has.

One of the Tkachuks would be the dream addition for this team. Even players like Ovechkin and Kucherov play with a mean streak this team is lacking.

 

[Buds17]

They need to be able to generate more (and probably even concede less) come Game 7. A fully healthy lineup would also obviously be incredibly helpful. They ultimately have to get the job done when the opponent is on the brink of elimination. Team toughness will be required in the event it can unquestionably aid with any of the aforementioned.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Matthews was pretty physical the past playoffs.

But the fact that Matthews, Nylander and Marner have player what 50-60 years of hockey combined and there is no evidence of any of them ever being in a fight. Does say a lot of the type of core this team has.

One of the Tkachuks would be the dream addition for this team. Even players like Ovechkin and Kucherov play with a mean streak this team is lacking.

Yes, but Matthews for one definitely isn't intimidated. That is an important element to be considered and I've seen him hit hard and even toss a man as big as Weber down when he was pissed.

You don't need your stars to fight, but, they HAVE to be willing to stand up for themselves, and more importantly, each other. I think the opposition realizes "don't wake up the bear". Such as when Crosby woke up against the Blues after he got into a fight when down 2-0.

Pens took over the game after that. Crosby has too much pride and the fight just forced him to show them who is really boss.

 

[ACC1224]

Playoffs are a long way off.

 

[axlrose87]

I would love to see us add a tough, stay at home right side defenceman. I would also like to add a tough top nine forward to replace someone like Engvall on the roster.

 

[Martin Skoula]

If Bunting was 6'2 210 and Holl used his size as aggressively as he could we'd be ideal. A Wilson and a prime Gudas is what we need, adding more Simmonds and Cliffords to play 10 minutes a night isn't doing it.

 

[jaric1862]

Assuming Ritchie sricks around, I'd say add one more aggressive defenceman and they're good.

 

[justashadowof]

No but hopefully not in a way that just about any opponent can just turn on the physical play and guarantee themselves a series win against the Leafs.

Would be nice to add:
1 - another rugged defender especially as insurance if Muzzin is lost to injury
2 - a physical winger capable of taking a regular shift with the big boys (what Ritchie was hoped to be)

In terms of the defender, there are certain forwards on every opponent who need a hard nosed approach especially in the more permissive climate of the NHL playoffs. Expecting Muzzin to handle this heavy lifting on his own isn't wise.

About a tough winger playing with the big guys, it has been done since the early days of the NHL that there are certain times when teams would send out a pair of its star forwards with a less talented more aggressive linemate to discourage the other team from abusing the star forwards. You can scoff at this if you wish but it is what was done. Also, a winning team in the NHL playoffs isn't reactive as much as dictating the state of the game. You want your opponent to get mad at you rather than you trying to keep your cool as they ragdoll you for 7 games in a row hoping to make them pay on the power play.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Only way to change the culture IMO is to over index on toughness over a period of time so that it "rubs off" on the team, players, and culture. Else just having one tough guy on the roster is not going to magically enable the other players to stop playing like princesses. Should that be done now? Who knows.

 

[Mess]

Only way to change the culture IMO is to over index on toughness over a period of time so that it "rubs off" on the team, players, and culture. Else just having one tough guy on the roster is not going to magically enable the other players to stop playing like princesses. Should that be done now? Who knows.

This is what the Leafs management never understood by having just Matt Martin in the past. A lone wolf needs a pack to be successful.

That is why NYI's "Identity line" is so successful and impactful because its not 1 man toughness but goes toward team toughness.

This is particular important come playoff time when the games get much harder hitting and tighter checking and intimidation to slow down highly skilled players is often very effective at leveling the playing field.

Now it seems we've loaded up in toughness Ritchie, Simmonds, Clifford up front as Leafs attempt to address this issue of the past this playoff year. I think we could use a solid 3rd pairing physical Dman that unloads on the opposition regularly with some big hits and makes going to the net a lot more uncomfortable.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The core has to step it up and be ready to go to war in the playoffs. They haven't yet and until that changes having a few tough guys won't matter much

 

[Mickey Marner]

I'm more concerned about mental toughness and intensity.

 

[AvroArrow]

I doubt either of these happen but ideally if we could add a guy like Josh Anderson on the left wing and Josh Manson on RD, I think we'd be poised to make a deep playoff run. They address the 2 biggest positions of need and you get some major size/grit/physicality with both of those players. Haven't looked up their salaries/cap etc. so I dunno how realistic it would be, but ideally I'd like to add 2 guys like that and I think we'd have a real shot. The core is good enough, we need that extra edge to help put us over the top though.

 

[Sypher04]

I doubt either of these happen but ideally if we could add a guy like Josh Anderson on the left wing and Josh Manson on RD, I think we'd be poised to make a deep playoff run. They address the 2 biggest positions of need and you get some major size/grit/physicality with both of those players. Haven't looked up their salaries/cap etc. so I dunno how realistic it would be, but ideally I'd like to add 2 guys like that and I think we'd have a real shot. The core is good enough, we need that extra edge to help put us over the top though.

Josh Anderson would certainly fit well into our top 6 wing I think, but 5.5 with several years left would be very hard to pull off. Especially with Rielly extension hitting the books next year and soup needing a new contract. I don’t know how it could be done tbh.

Manson I’d assume simply won’t be available if Anaheim continues to play well.

But yeah, maybe there are “lite” versions of these guys out there to be had who could be had for “lite” payments and cap hits

 

[Sypher04]

Team toughness to me means not just being physical but also be able to take the body to make plays because in playoffs making fancy plays never cut it because pretty much everybody is dialed in. Another aspect IMO of team toughness is mental aspect and mindset i.e. work through the adversity to get the job done.

Do I believe we have team toughness? No

Will I happily eat crow? Oh Hell Yes!!!

We don't really have cap room to make any maneuver; we will go as far as our the 4 guys take us. And of course Campbell.

i mean, thats just generally true that playoff teams only go as far as their core takes them. I’d say for us that’s Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Rielly and Campbell. They need to be our best players if we’re going to succeed.