In the end one gold per season is good enough when it comes down to WHC, U18, U20, Olympics and World Cup. Keep that every year and I won't complain. This season was a success in the big picture.
WC: Team Finland
- Thread starter Jarey Curry
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BullLund
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2017
- 1,327
- 1,489
Winning is more important than playing exciting hockey.
If Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. start beating Finland regularly, then you've got to adapt to what they are doing. And what they're doing isn't necessarily "exciting hockey".
You can't play outdated hockey strategies but you can't also let a bunch of 19-20 years determine the strategies for crucial games. Safe to say that in 5-6 years, all of those young players will have a much different perspective on what's truly the best type of hockey. It's the one that wins Stanley Cups and world championships. Not the stuff that's "fun to play".
If you look at the Stanley cup series right now, you'll see a lot of trapping and slowing down of gameplay being done, along with fast gameplay, at the opportune moments.
Gassing yourself out with a 1 period rush, then getting your wind back by the end of the match, isn't smart gameplay. And if you're going to get gassed out then you better learn how to slow it down.
DoubleGold
X2
The reason I rejoice wins in U18 and U20 is because it's a promise of a better tomorrow, getting high quality players so that they can win in men's series. I just wish we we're able to produce more medals where it counts.
DoubleGold
X2
Good points but I think the last best-on-best tournament, WCH, was a good indication of what happens when Finland plays with outdated strategies. We we're humiliated, the opposing teams utilized their speed and it got to us.
FinRanger
Registered User
- Jan 15, 2013
- 972
- 788
I think that was anything but exciting. Team was very lucky against Canada and USA. And wtf they played a lot of trap against them. Also the whole team played like sissys. Where were all the big hits, the determination to drive to the net, and also where were emotion. This is the worst kind of hockey. Yeah they made some nice passing plays here and there but overall it was more like floorball. They should man up and bring back that hard checking finnish hockey and also get someone to motivate them and shout at them to fire them up when they are playing poorly.
DoubleGold
X2
I wasn't talking about checking. Yes, it's currently lacking in Finnish hockey and it's a shame since it can turn a game around. Finland trapped at times, but it was a lot more galvanized than in some previous tournaments.
BullLund
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2017
- 1,327
- 1,489
That's because Marjamäki couldn't get people to play his strategies properly. And most likely, his strategies just sucked. He's just a worse coach than those who always managed to bring Finland some glory throughout the 90's, the 00's and early 2010's.
Relying on "speed" when you've only got like 2-3 forwards with speed, and a bunch of cocky defensemen who all think they're the 2nd coming of Erik Karlsson (without being anywhere near his league), only spells trouble for me.
Finland's national team will always be mostly SM league guys. To make best use of them, you've got to play a strategic game. Not a game of pure talent.
We don't want to turn into what everybody's perspective of Russia has been, talented guys with no ability to work as an effective team. Team work, coordination and smart gameplay are still essential to successful Finnish hockey. We're not mass-producing super-athletic megastars, and the chances are that even if we did, those super-athletic megastars won't bother coming to world championship games, anyway. Not on a regular basis.
If a guy like Laine doesn't want to play Finnish hockey, that's too bad, but the team can live without him. He's a guy who requires set plays in order to succeed, anyway.
DoubleGold
X2
I think Finland is producing quality players at such a pace that we don't have to solely rely on "meidän peli" tactics in the future. The attendance of these players will remain unanswered for now however, people like Ristolainen (best Finnish defenseman currently) has already shown how loyal he is when it comes to playing for his country. But yes, we shouldn't trust in our talent too much. Even if we're able to produce more quality players, we're not going to get past countries like Canada, USA and Russia in output. I think there's a middle ground between teamplay orientated strategy and just letting our superstars do whatever they feel like.
BullLund
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2017
- 1,327
- 1,489
As I said, I just don't think there's any indication that those players will be playing for the Finnish national hockey team.
"Meidän peli" is still the game that we should play, for the most part. Just not "Marjamäen peli" which was shit. We shouldn't confuse what Marjamäki played, with what Jalonen played, for example.
People forget that Finland never had a lack of scoring because of a lack of chances. They suffered from a lack of finishers. Finland always produced a good amount of shots at the net. Enough to make you curse at the TV set, as they missed their 30th opportunity to score.
I don't see why people are in such a big hurry to get rid of a winning strategy, one that always produced results (until Marjamäki's shit interpretation of it), especially now that we actually have better players.
Jussi
Registered User
In hindsight, we might have been better off having Niemi in the line up instead of Tolvanen. We would have then had at least one proper center.
Blasb
Registered User
Finland deserved to lose. I mean who the **** thinks a team that only shows up in the 3rd period deserves to win. Luckily we will never see marjamäki again(worst coach since idk when).
Blasb
Registered User
On the other hand the last title in 2011 followed Finland's worst streak of poor performances in the juniors.
Jarey Curry
Avalanche of Makar
I'm glad that this Marjamäki bashing is finally over! He was certainly not the worst coach ever seen but Finnish bandwagoners gather up and throw him under the bus all the time. I can't help but wonder who are all these better choices over Marjamäki who is basically getting treated like he's next to a crap. Name 5 or even 3 CLEARLY better names... I can think of one clearly better and he's our next coach Mr Jalonen. That's about it. I would maybe like to see Marjamäki to coach Finland again if not for the improvement he has gone through to be even better but to see these bandwagoners faces when they hear their hated coach is back! 
I agree with that part and I would change this play style to a less exciting one if it would bring better results in winning the right games as the cliche goes.
I got confidence in Jukka Jalonen that he will find some way in between where our new NT generation can keep playing quite fresh without having to think too much and I'm hoping that the team will be more stable with their 5on5 defense and mentality.
I think that Marjamäki blew it with player selections a little bit. We lacked few true vets with leadership and those vets could have been centers capable of taking faceoffs as that was the problem for the entire tournament. Lajunen or even Jarkko Immonen comes to mind. Even if Immonen's skating has got worse he could have been useful in many ways. That was just an example.
There were more of that kind of guys available but since they aren't perfect players, Late would've had to sacrifice some qualities to get them. The selections were a little bit bold and greedy in that sense and it's just strange that he didn't ever stamp Niemi's tournament pass and chose Palola instead. He did a lot of small coaching mistakes, including small mistakes with player selections, which as a whole became a big reason for losing the game of death and the tournament is all about that one game.
Hmm I don't know. I kind of value U18 or U20 championships almost the same as WHC. The promise of a better tomorrow isn't everything to me, maybe the half of it. It's still simply about competing and wanting to beat everyone because you know that those opposing countries players and fans want to win the tournament badly as well and your team has a chance to take it from them. In juniors you get a greater number of your best players compared to WHC. It's closer to a best on best than WHC, maybe biggest exception being Canadians missing more players than others in U18.
If I'll try to describe it in numbers, I would say that U20 gold means to me 80% of what WHC men's gold means to me and U18 70%.
To win more WHC golds we need better coaching (done). Also we lack in the defensemen part still and we need to produce more Esa Lindell's who can do it all and have the size. Give more Olli Määttäs as well as long as they join to help the NT when they are available.
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I'm glad someone else noticed the luck part as well. McDavid hitting the shaft of the goalie's stick, Heiskanen's save etc, etc, etc. If some of those had gone in at crucial moments before Finland scored more goals, those games would've been totally different games. In a rematch Canada would've beaten Finland probably and bad faceoffing by Finland would've mattered a lot in that. Anything can happen inside single games but we would've probably ended up being in the bronze game. That in mind, QF exit isn't such a bad thing. It just sucks we didn't get to see the confirmation for this destiny of a bronze game.
To your other point. In MTV3's hockey studio OJ and Kivi discussed that the new NT generation doesn't need fear (shouting) to motivate them but I kind of disagree and you need someone like Duhva, Tomek Valtonen, younger Jortikka or even crazy Summanen to yell at them. Jukka Jalonen is capable of doing that himself better than Marjamäki. I would say that the best scenaro is to have one assistant coach who is mainly a tactician (Kivi) and one spiritual coach (Duhva is my preferred choice).
Artorius Horus T
sincerety
Lets recap:
Game 1 - vs Korea
- After two periods, the score 4-1
Finland with 2 SH goals,1 PP goal,
5 on 5 game after 2 vs Koreans 1-1,
Koreans scored their sole goal
after horrendous neutral zone
mistake by us which caused a break away
and a goal,the end score 8-1.
I think it was easily seen from the get go
that this team wasn't going places, people
just didn't see through the smoke screen,
- smokes and mirrors from start to finish
Game 2 - vs Latvia
- we start tart the game with early super easy goal,
and Aho scores the late killer in first to
a wide open net (btw. he scored tons of
those goals in this tournament, easy goals) 3-0 the score,
lucky result again for us. 2nd, period Latvians get lots of PP's
(5-3 as well) can't score, they have the puck more, skate well,
we in trouble, 4 on 4 situation, we score, Aho gets another easy goal,
then we capitalize Latvian's mistake, Savinainen scores its 5-0
and the game is finished, we score 3 pp goals in 3rd to make
the score look even more impressive what the game was
the end score 8-1, another blow out victory, but stil
the story remains the same.
Game 3 - vs Norway
- tough 1st period vs Norway, we can't really do much
but the luck keeps us up in these games, 2-0 after 1st
2 early goals for us kills the game, we pad the score
with 2 pp goals (1 x 5-3 goal) 6-0 after 2, we finish
the game with horrendous 3rd period, the end score
7-0, in the media almost everyone is going bonkers, 3
blow out victories, the fans too are super hyped, but
when you cut the game in peaces, its easy to see
why the tournament wen't how it wen't.
Game 4 - vs Denmark
- the first real opponent, the first real goalie we faced,
this time, there were no lucky bounces, no lucky goals,
the effort was there at times, we pretty much
played the way as we played first 3 games, but
what was good enough vs Korea,Latvia and Norway
wasn't enough against Denmark, they score first,we tie
it, they score again, we tie it again, they score last and win,
most of you probably say, we were better, deserved to win
Andersen stood on his head, Teräväinen dumb penalties
cost us the game, couldn't be more far from the truth,
this was on Märjamäki and his inability to coach his
team to get absolutely everything out of his players,
we were out coached, the better, smarter rather
team won this game, rightfully so. the end score 2-3 loss.
Game 5 - vs Canada
- not a single victory without tons of luck,by puck
bounces, opponent mistakes etc. etc. in these games,
the main reason why we beat Canada; shitttty performance
by their goalie, we got yet again lucky bounces and mistakes
on our favor from early on we score 3 goals in first,
our recipe for victory in this tournament; score 2-3 easy goal in first
and get a high morale boost for rest of the game, 2nd period 0-0
Canada plays well, our goalie is better, really good, 3-1 after 2.
in 3rd we score 2 super quick goals and make the score (5-1)
look much more favorable what in reality it actually is,
rest of the game is nothing but penalties for both teams
and the game is in the books; 5-1 win for us, bad game from them
yet another lucky game for us, the smoke veil thickens.
Game 6 - vs Germany
- this game was the best showcase of Marjamäki and how
horrible he is as a international team head coach, from
start to finish, i leave it that, the end score 2-3 ot loss.
doubters emerge, media&fans.
Game 7 - vs USA
- ah the notorious Yhdysvallat game, the final nail
to our smoke filled coffin. After game media super hype explosion,
laughing at your opponent, by players, fans and media
the cockiness, arrogance, all this without any merit.
The game was something inconceivable, the amount of
bad luck for them and good luck for us....NUTS. What
ever they tried, they failed on almost everything, what ever we tried
we excelled on almost everything. Someone quoted my post
in game, how luck is earned, yeah, i agree to some degree, but mostly
its BS, you have to be significantly better to "earn" your luck
we weren't, our luck was just pure luck, the same old schtick
the entire tournament when we were winning. First period
we scored 2 goals, surprise surprise, can i get a L, can i get a U,
can i get a C....after 2 we led the game 3-0 after late dagger by Rants,
we all remember what happened in 3rd, the score 6-2 and
everyone when nuts.
Game 8 - vs Switzerland
- we were outplayed, out numbered, out coached from the get go.
Switzerland was by far the better team and without Säteri the numbers could
of been much worse, yes their goalie was really good too but, we really
didn't create that many dangerous scoring chances in the game (1st period),
they skated and checked the jeebus out of us and in 3rd they decided to give the game
to us and go full defence mode, -> the shoots on goal favored us because of that
and because 4 x 2 min minors for them 0 for us. the score 2-3 most deserved loss.
The games were nothing but a giant smoke screen from our part,
8-1, 8-1, 7-0, blow out wins pretty much doomed us, we were playing shitzzy
hockey and no one seemed to notice (or care) our players kept repeating the same
stuff in every interview after every win and even after Denmark&Germany losses
there were no worries among our players, because of those Canada&USA false / fake
wins...all of the false hope/ good feeling got crushed in the game 8, vs Switzerland.
The End
Game 1 - vs Korea
- After two periods, the score 4-1
Finland with 2 SH goals,1 PP goal,
5 on 5 game after 2 vs Koreans 1-1,
Koreans scored their sole goal
after horrendous neutral zone
mistake by us which caused a break away
and a goal,the end score 8-1.
I think it was easily seen from the get go
that this team wasn't going places, people
just didn't see through the smoke screen,
- smokes and mirrors from start to finish
Game 2 - vs Latvia
- we start tart the game with early super easy goal,
and Aho scores the late killer in first to
a wide open net (btw. he scored tons of
those goals in this tournament, easy goals) 3-0 the score,
lucky result again for us. 2nd, period Latvians get lots of PP's
(5-3 as well) can't score, they have the puck more, skate well,
we in trouble, 4 on 4 situation, we score, Aho gets another easy goal,
then we capitalize Latvian's mistake, Savinainen scores its 5-0
and the game is finished, we score 3 pp goals in 3rd to make
the score look even more impressive what the game was
the end score 8-1, another blow out victory, but stil
the story remains the same.
Game 3 - vs Norway
- tough 1st period vs Norway, we can't really do much
but the luck keeps us up in these games, 2-0 after 1st
2 early goals for us kills the game, we pad the score
with 2 pp goals (1 x 5-3 goal) 6-0 after 2, we finish
the game with horrendous 3rd period, the end score
7-0, in the media almost everyone is going bonkers, 3
blow out victories, the fans too are super hyped, but
when you cut the game in peaces, its easy to see
why the tournament wen't how it wen't.
Game 4 - vs Denmark
- the first real opponent, the first real goalie we faced,
this time, there were no lucky bounces, no lucky goals,
the effort was there at times, we pretty much
played the way as we played first 3 games, but
what was good enough vs Korea,Latvia and Norway
wasn't enough against Denmark, they score first,we tie
it, they score again, we tie it again, they score last and win,
most of you probably say, we were better, deserved to win
Andersen stood on his head, Teräväinen dumb penalties
cost us the game, couldn't be more far from the truth,
this was on Märjamäki and his inability to coach his
team to get absolutely everything out of his players,
we were out coached, the better, smarter rather
team won this game, rightfully so. the end score 2-3 loss.
Game 5 - vs Canada
- not a single victory without tons of luck,by puck
bounces, opponent mistakes etc. etc. in these games,
the main reason why we beat Canada; shitttty performance
by their goalie, we got yet again lucky bounces and mistakes
on our favor from early on we score 3 goals in first,
our recipe for victory in this tournament; score 2-3 easy goal in first
and get a high morale boost for rest of the game, 2nd period 0-0
Canada plays well, our goalie is better, really good, 3-1 after 2.
in 3rd we score 2 super quick goals and make the score (5-1)
look much more favorable what in reality it actually is,
rest of the game is nothing but penalties for both teams
and the game is in the books; 5-1 win for us, bad game from them
yet another lucky game for us, the smoke veil thickens.
Game 6 - vs Germany
- this game was the best showcase of Marjamäki and how
horrible he is as a international team head coach, from
start to finish, i leave it that, the end score 2-3 ot loss.
doubters emerge, media&fans.
Game 7 - vs USA
- ah the notorious Yhdysvallat game, the final nail
to our smoke filled coffin. After game media super hype explosion,
laughing at your opponent, by players, fans and media
the cockiness, arrogance, all this without any merit.
The game was something inconceivable, the amount of
bad luck for them and good luck for us....NUTS. What
ever they tried, they failed on almost everything, what ever we tried
we excelled on almost everything. Someone quoted my post
in game, how luck is earned, yeah, i agree to some degree, but mostly
its BS, you have to be significantly better to "earn" your luck
we weren't, our luck was just pure luck, the same old schtick
the entire tournament when we were winning. First period
we scored 2 goals, surprise surprise, can i get a L, can i get a U,
can i get a C....after 2 we led the game 3-0 after late dagger by Rants,
we all remember what happened in 3rd, the score 6-2 and
everyone when nuts.
Game 8 - vs Switzerland
- we were outplayed, out numbered, out coached from the get go.
Switzerland was by far the better team and without Säteri the numbers could
of been much worse, yes their goalie was really good too but, we really
didn't create that many dangerous scoring chances in the game (1st period),
they skated and checked the jeebus out of us and in 3rd they decided to give the game
to us and go full defence mode, -> the shoots on goal favored us because of that
and because 4 x 2 min minors for them 0 for us. the score 2-3 most deserved loss.
The games were nothing but a giant smoke screen from our part,
8-1, 8-1, 7-0, blow out wins pretty much doomed us, we were playing shitzzy
hockey and no one seemed to notice (or care) our players kept repeating the same
stuff in every interview after every win and even after Denmark&Germany losses
there were no worries among our players, because of those Canada&USA false / fake
wins...all of the false hope/ good feeling got crushed in the game 8, vs Switzerland.
The End
You're ignoring one very important factor. In 2011, when Jalonen's team won the gold medal playing "Meidänpeli", hockey was nowhere near as fast as it is today. In that time, nobody was playing speed-based systems, so it was easier to implement a strategy like that. Look at Jalonen's U20 team in 2016 -- that squad was a perfect example of a take-no-prisoners, run-and-gun speed team, it looked as if Jalonen had completely abandoned "Meidänpeli" during that five-year span. As a coach, you can't just cling to whatever worked in the past, strategies and systems have to be adjusted, modernized and sometimes completely re-invented to suit the needs of the modern era.
Marjamäki tried to "Meidänpeli" vs Denmark, which failed miserably, as Denmark easily trapped the **** out of Finland. Finland's breakouts were so slow that Denmark had no trouble in setting up their defensive scheme, which Finland couldn't break with their weak neutral zone play. Even Marjamäki, who is definitely not the brightest coach out there, realized that there's no way he can continue with Meidänpeli, and instead opted to speed things up.
This team's number one weakness was the lack of proper defensive defensemen, along with an extremely weak center group that mostly consisted of wingers. ALL of our defensemen were better suited to an offensive role, which was a problem whenever they actually had to defend. Look at how Germany played in front of their own net and compare that to what Finland was doing.
If an inspiration for the future of Finnish hockey needs to be searched, look no further than the last two Finnish U18 teams. Those team had everything -- talent, speed, grit and sisu.
QnebO
Wheel, snipe, celly
- Feb 11, 2010
- 9,763
- 644
KalPa has probably best sytsem (IMO) in FEL. Just copy / paste that. Not saying only because Im Savonian and KalPa fan, but because its agressive, modern and it worked well against teams that had better material and we went surprisingly far with very young team.
I think KalPa has like two systems and three keypoints:
1. Puck Controll in any case is kept
Styles to do it:
2. Fast Chezian turn game / run and gun/ modern forecheck, what ever you call it
Or
3. Some times use some plays of Pekka virta playbook
From what Ive seen, its mostly modern hockey, alot of times you see the Defenders being two first guys deep in opponent zone, but they can suddenly chance to jätön jätön jättö if opponent plays out the run and gun too well. So hybrid of two things to my eye. This mix is Kapanens hockey I guess. Its like players make the selection based on their instincts.
Its hard to tell actually what System is KalPas system but it definitely feels and seems that it is a system, while Marjamäki seemed more Luomu guy at least this WHC.
I think KalPa has like two systems and three keypoints:
1. Puck Controll in any case is kept
Styles to do it:
2. Fast Chezian turn game / run and gun/ modern forecheck, what ever you call it
Or
3. Some times use some plays of Pekka virta playbook
From what Ive seen, its mostly modern hockey, alot of times you see the Defenders being two first guys deep in opponent zone, but they can suddenly chance to jätön jätön jättö if opponent plays out the run and gun too well. So hybrid of two things to my eye. This mix is Kapanens hockey I guess. Its like players make the selection based on their instincts.
Its hard to tell actually what System is KalPas system but it definitely feels and seems that it is a system, while Marjamäki seemed more Luomu guy at least this WHC.
DoubleGold
X2
I agree. I'm happy that Nutivaara came along, he showed what it means to be a NHL defenseman. Ristolainen is currently our best defenseman but he clearly isn't interested, it makes me sick. I doubt that the Stars and Pens make it past the 2nd round next year, so lets hope we land Linden and Määttä.
I think Marjamäki was really counting on Hakanpää and Ohtamaa being the leaders on the own end, but they were both injured late in the playoffs, as a result he ended up picking 6 offensive d-man.
Would've been nice to see Mikkola in action too, but not sure why he didn't even get one game.
I'm glad that this Marjamäki bashing is finally over! He was certainly not the worst coach ever seen but Finnish bandwagoners gather up and throw him under the bus all the time. I can't help but wonder who are all these better choices over Marjamäki who is basically getting treated like he's next to a crap. Name 5 or even 3 CLEARLY better names... I can think of one clearly better and he's our next coach Mr Jalonen. That's about it. I would maybe like to see Marjamäki to coach Finland again if not for the improvement he has gone through to be even better but to see these bandwagoners faces when they hear their hated coach is back!
Come on, maybe sometimes the Marjamäki bashing has gone over the top and the QF loss is on the players I think, you can't just fall apart like that for 5 minutes in a game. Maybe some other coach could've yelled them straight or something, but in any case in the end a black moment like that is on the players IMO. Looking at Marjamäki's tenure as a whole it's about results and Marjamäki has the worst NT resume for a coach since the 80s or something... so yeah, I'm 100% sure there are more than one coach who could've done better during this time with the players he had available. But that's a what if and we'll never know. Right down to player choices he made some odd ones - there's always those, and generally I don't question them but if the results never follow then at some point one starts to wonder...
On the positive side, I think this was by far the best tournament the NT has played under Marjamäki and personally I saw some signs he could've ended up an OK coach for NT and if he actually coaches NT again, I'm sure he'd do better. I don't think he's a bad coach per se and I'm confident he's capable of learning, but clearly his strengths as a coach were not well suited for NT and he made a lot of mistakes and quite simply just didn't seem ready for the job. His first 20 or so games as a coach the results were absolutely horrible, it took him 2 years to get to "OK". When he was picked as a coach I was happy, I had high opinion of him but that has unfortunately changed and in hindsight he was chosen like 5 years early. Clearly the lack of experience in national level and the lack of time compared to league coaching was something he couldn't cope with. Also in one game tournaments like that, I think the emotional/psychological side within a game is important and that seems to be something Marjamäki is sorely lacking.
Dufva was not Jalonen's assistant in the 2011 tournament, he quit after the 2010 games. The assistants in 2011 were Petri Matikainen and Pasi Nurminen.
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