Well, The lines are changed, just hooe tolvanen nail a shot now, then he might have a Good game against USA, but he seams troubled right now
WJC: Team Finland 2019 U20 WJC Roster Talk
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Hokinaittii
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2015
- 2,497
- 1,293
If they really are considering Raipe for a job as important as being U20 head coach is, I'll just throw one name out of the hat out there that is a better option than him. Juha Juujärvi seems like a clever guy based on the studio talks he has had for the last couple seasons and he seems to have some good merits as well, at least more than Raipe has:
- 2011-2012
- 2012-2013
- 2013-2014
Best team in the tournament just starting to heat up. Watch for it boys, for the domination is about to begin with the best prospect in the tournament leading the way.
Team Cozens
Registered User
Four games, two wingers and countless opportunities later, it's time to split the Kupari-Heponiemi pairing. They play together for Kärpät, sure, but it's unacceptable that they combine for 1 goal in this entire tournament so far. Changes must be made, so that there's any semblance of hope against Canada.
Heponiemi/Kakko - Lundell - Kakko/Heponiemi
Heponiemi is useless without the puck, Lundell and Kakko are useless without ice time. Win-win?
Talvitie - Kupari - Tolvanen
Name of the game: Talvitie and Kupari on the forecheck, play any loose pucks to the slot for Tolvanen. If Tolvanen is still not scoring despite this, swap Ylönen here as the RW.
Nyman/Moilanen - Virtanen - Ylönen
The best of the rest, I guess.
Moilanen/Nyman - Vainionpää - Puustinen
It is what it is, can't be helped. Hopefully Vainionpää doesn't get suspended for that head hit on Robertson, otherwise this team is down a center vs Canada.
As far as the defense is concerned, Honka needs to be stapled to the bench vs Canada. Sure, Laaksonen/Utunen/Heinola weren't great either, but Honka was especially bad.
I'd give UPL another chance. He wasn't great vs USA, but he also wasn't the main reason why Finland lost.
Heponiemi/Kakko - Lundell - Kakko/Heponiemi
Heponiemi is useless without the puck, Lundell and Kakko are useless without ice time. Win-win?
Talvitie - Kupari - Tolvanen
Name of the game: Talvitie and Kupari on the forecheck, play any loose pucks to the slot for Tolvanen. If Tolvanen is still not scoring despite this, swap Ylönen here as the RW.
Nyman/Moilanen - Virtanen - Ylönen
The best of the rest, I guess.
Moilanen/Nyman - Vainionpää - Puustinen
It is what it is, can't be helped. Hopefully Vainionpää doesn't get suspended for that head hit on Robertson, otherwise this team is down a center vs Canada.
As far as the defense is concerned, Honka needs to be stapled to the bench vs Canada. Sure, Laaksonen/Utunen/Heinola weren't great either, but Honka was especially bad.
I'd give UPL another chance. He wasn't great vs USA, but he also wasn't the main reason why Finland lost.
Easy to say now after we lost to USA but these are the top-6 lines the coaches should have made before the tournament began or even before the Canada game:
Talvitie-Kakko-Tolvanen
Heponiemi-Lundell-Kupari
I must wonder what would've happened if the coaches had done that in the beginning. First line has two guys with NA seasons behind them and Kakko just is very gritty player whose style fits NA sized rink well it seems, while the second unit has all players in SM-Liiga this season. I guess it's too late now to start doing changes as drastic as that.
A more realistic change that they can still do is to put Talvitie in the first line instead of Nyman like many of us were asking a while ago. I think that they will finally do this change now.
Also as Juujärvi suggested, revamp the PP units completely. In my opinion put Talvitie and Kakko together and build first unit around them and these guys must have increased PP minutes. 1 minute and 20 secs to full 2 minutes since they are the 2 best forwards of our team this tournament. Perhaps Jokiharju would be part of that unit and I still believe Tolvanen's goal scoring can be found if he has all the right pieces around him. Fifth piece could be Heponiemi for assists or another D-man. Maybe still roll the second PP unit with 4 forwards though.
Talvitie-Kakko-Tolvanen
Heponiemi-Lundell-Kupari
I must wonder what would've happened if the coaches had done that in the beginning. First line has two guys with NA seasons behind them and Kakko just is very gritty player whose style fits NA sized rink well it seems, while the second unit has all players in SM-Liiga this season. I guess it's too late now to start doing changes as drastic as that.
A more realistic change that they can still do is to put Talvitie in the first line instead of Nyman like many of us were asking a while ago. I think that they will finally do this change now.
Also as Juujärvi suggested, revamp the PP units completely. In my opinion put Talvitie and Kakko together and build first unit around them and these guys must have increased PP minutes. 1 minute and 20 secs to full 2 minutes since they are the 2 best forwards of our team this tournament. Perhaps Jokiharju would be part of that unit and I still believe Tolvanen's goal scoring can be found if he has all the right pieces around him. Fifth piece could be Heponiemi for assists or another D-man. Maybe still roll the second PP unit with 4 forwards though.
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Unless we would make Kakko a center. Vainionpää has been the worst forward of the team probably so it's only a gain if he gets suspended. Wasn't Kakko a center in last spring's U18 gold team? I can't remember but I think he was.
You are right that Kupari and Heponiemi just aren't the same without someone like Pyörälä being there with them. Talvitie is probably the closest thing to Pyörälä this team has, so either they should put Talvitie with them or like I said in my post, Kupari to wing and Kakko to center would free Lundell to be with Kupari and Heponiemi, so this way we still get some use of their Kärppä-chemistry.
I fully think UPL should stay in goal as well. He didn't have a good game but not the worst game either. He was the one who was in goal when we beat Canada in the practice game and let's not forget he has been a starting goalie in that gold winning U18 team few years ago. So there are enough reasons to give him another try instead of crucifying him.
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Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,938
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I mixed the threads since you guys have already long since gone ahead (of yourselves?) in the next year's 2020 WJC speculations; a token of an unavoidable and day by day approaching disappointment and disaster in this year's campaign, again. 
It would be more actual, to say the least, to get into that prospective foreshadowing of not the still ongoing but the next one of these competitions only after the coup de grâce, the final finishing hit ending the so-and-so teetering advance of Young Lions towards the coveted Gold flickering and wavering there somewhere in the horizon of mirages.
But this time, well, we all see what is coming long in advance. The infamous, the notorious, the much feared QF ousting, vive la Destruction!
So, after this concise prologue, let me rephrase and/or explicate the core analysis from its original thread, WJC 2020 Finland Roster, oh man!!!:
As said, things look dire indeed. This Jussi Ahokas, a nice guy with the jargon (("seliseli"), yes, but something is lacking. And with that something everything needed for the team to play up to their capabilities when it counts, stakes are high, all is hanging in a balance.
Well, this Ahokas dude came in with high hopes with the U18 Title on his belt (at the heights of the Rautakorpi disaster in the middle of the tournament 2017, two years back iirc) and said these memorable, immortal words - apparently memorizing a line or two from some junior coaching class manual - mutatis mutandis:
You must first reach these kids, talk their language, create a connection - and only then you can start to insert your playbook. First comes interaction, then tactics, guys.
We do remember these words still, Juice Clearing Oh! - or some similar sentence to the same effect. And what have we got during these two tourneys at the WJC level so far, you in the charge from the get go? The interaction? The playbook? Guess so then. It is just not enough, Juice Clearing Oh! It is not enough to get these "items" separately and slo as moleasses. Be a nice guy for the kids - and then be a nice guy still and play some nice guy still hockey as it should be played on some paper, issued by some Federation coaching class tutorial for nice guys . We need to rise above those preset conditions. We need to start coaching. In real time.
It would be more actual, to say the least, to get into that prospective foreshadowing of not the still ongoing but the next one of these competitions only after the coup de grâce, the final finishing hit ending the so-and-so teetering advance of Young Lions towards the coveted Gold flickering and wavering there somewhere in the horizon of mirages.But this time, well, we all see what is coming long in advance. The infamous, the notorious, the much feared QF ousting, vive la Destruction!
So, after this concise prologue, let me rephrase and/or explicate the core analysis from its original thread, WJC 2020 Finland Roster, oh man!!!:
As said, things look dire indeed. This Jussi Ahokas, a nice guy with the jargon (("seliseli"), yes, but something is lacking. And with that something everything needed for the team to play up to their capabilities when it counts, stakes are high, all is hanging in a balance.
Well, this Ahokas dude came in with high hopes with the U18 Title on his belt (at the heights of the Rautakorpi disaster in the middle of the tournament 2017, two years back iirc) and said these memorable, immortal words - apparently memorizing a line or two from some junior coaching class manual - mutatis mutandis:
You must first reach these kids, talk their language, create a connection - and only then you can start to insert your playbook. First comes interaction, then tactics, guys.
We do remember these words still, Juice Clearing Oh! - or some similar sentence to the same effect. And what have we got during these two tourneys at the WJC level so far, you in the charge from the get go? The interaction? The playbook? Guess so then. It is just not enough, Juice Clearing Oh! It is not enough to get these "items" separately and slo as moleasses. Be a nice guy for the kids - and then be a nice guy still and play some nice guy still hockey as it should be played on some paper, issued by some Federation coaching class tutorial for nice guys . We need to rise above those preset conditions. We need to start coaching. In real time.
kelsier
Registered User
- Aug 17, 2013
- 4,280
- 1,741
Kakko playing 13:30 in a game with extremely high stakes speaks volumes about the lack of coaching. Ahokas was beyond terrible last year and it would seem he continues the trend and despite of having one of the best rosters at hands from the recent years. He has no fkin idea how to utlilize the team and get most out of the players. I kept noticing the very short shifts the lines played throughout the game. The first line could occasionally play a bit longer but second line was treated like they were the third or the fourth line and the TOI shows this quite clearly:
Eeli Tolvanen - 16:35
Anton Lundell - 14:15
Kaapo Kakko - 13:30
If I didn't watch the game I'd be blown away seeing the numbers, but I watched it and couldn't but help to think what the heck was happening. The difference for Tolvanen vs the other two came from the powerplay mostly, where Lundell's unit didn't see all that much ice just like on the EV.
The next game will be against Canada and knowing who's going to be standing behind the bench and "leading" the team, there's no point to hope for anything but a ticket home. I truly hope this is the last frigging time we have to see Ahokas dealing or handling any of our jr teams on the international stage.
*Oh and wtf is Nyman still doing in the top six? If I'm playing an online game and I notice someone from my team snoozing I'll tell them to wakethe*kup, but in this case it's the coach dozing so it's pretty much game over*
Eeli Tolvanen - 16:35
Anton Lundell - 14:15
Kaapo Kakko - 13:30
If I didn't watch the game I'd be blown away seeing the numbers, but I watched it and couldn't but help to think what the heck was happening. The difference for Tolvanen vs the other two came from the powerplay mostly, where Lundell's unit didn't see all that much ice just like on the EV.
The next game will be against Canada and knowing who's going to be standing behind the bench and "leading" the team, there's no point to hope for anything but a ticket home. I truly hope this is the last frigging time we have to see Ahokas dealing or handling any of our jr teams on the international stage.
*Oh and wtf is Nyman still doing in the top six? If I'm playing an online game and I notice someone from my team snoozing I'll tell them to wakethe*kup, but in this case it's the coach dozing so it's pretty much game over*
ZEBROA
Registered User
- Dec 21, 2017
- 3,938
- 2,555
Finland will beat Canada. They will play a lot better when it realy counts.
btw, what do you guys say about Finland not getting a goal because of a stupid refree and USA getting a goal even tho they pushed lukko into the goal? I think this game could have ended in a totaly different way. Now Finland will face Canada and finaly be the underdogs, where I feel Finland play at its best. Looking forward to one hell of a game tomorrow!
That happens, it's just hockey and it goes both ways. This time it bit us but the next game we may get the puck luck. What's more concerning is the stupid setup and approach by Ahokas. Why let the US sit back and pick us off from juicy counter attacks? Especially when we insist on repeatedly try to play our crappy setup game from our own zone that hasn't worked all tournament. Even if we by some miracle get the bounces and bounce Canada Finland still has to learn lessons from this tournament. The entire setup and preparation was wrong.
Serious leadership mistakes that need to be fixed for future tournaments: 1. Poor team setup 2. Poor mental preparation. 3 Poor basic tactics AND/OR execution 4. Poor special teams 5. Poor scouting of opponents 6. Poor adaptation to in game problems 7. Poor discipline
Jussi
Registered User
IIRC, the first unit played the most of the powerplays almost entirely because the puck stayed in the zones and they couldn't change lines. It also happened defensively at least once, the first line spent a long time in our own zone because they couldn't clear the puck and change lines. I think it's more coindicental than intentional.
Jussi
Registered User
It's also becoming apparent that Nordgren's injury hurt this team more than Vesalainen's "career choice". His right handed shot could have worked wonders with Kupari and Heponiemi while also having someone on the pp who can get the puck on the net.
The contribution of Mika Pyörälä to their line with Kärpät seems to be much greater than estimated.
The contribution of Mika Pyörälä to their line with Kärpät seems to be much greater than estimated.
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ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
Team Finland booms
Talvitie
Kakko
Lundell
Heinola
Team Finland busts
Kupari
Heponiemi
Tolvanen.
Nyman
Talvitie
Kakko
Lundell
Heinola
Team Finland busts
Kupari
Heponiemi
Tolvanen.
Nyman
kelsier
Registered User
- Aug 17, 2013
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It doesn't matter what excuse you make, when your star player ends up with 13:30 then you know something's went horribly wrong. It wasn't either coincidental nor intentional, but rather a result of incompetence. Ahokas kept the line changes swift and short, not really taking into account much what line was running - I kept noting that regularly. Normal teams you have first two lines that play longer shifts than the bottom lines but it seemed as if there were no kind of hierarchy whatsoever. It's like his tactics were taken from the old days where the ice time distributed evenly just to make sure everyone got to skate. Not sure which decade or century this guy is living but he sure as heck better wake up to what's happening today. I also mentioned earlier about Hepo's TOI and why it peaked that high compared to others, but you could explain that by first line getting slightly more ice time than others, PP and Heponiemi cheating with the changes (as he has throughout the tournament).
Hopefully they'll do some thoroughly analysis about this WJC and the things going south that we can avoid them in the future (under different coaching team). At first Ahokas decides to cut Kokkonen (rather than Honka), then after the games begin despite of damn awful showings Ahokas fails to demote Nyman off the top six, he hasn't done jackshit about first line that doesn't produce (other than add Nyman in it) and now this. I'm sure if someone goes into more detail, there's more but lets leave it later. Such are the most notable mistakes this far. Maybe he has another trick at the sleeves come QF (cannot go much worse, or can it). I'd swap him with Helminen in a heartbeat for the next game if someone gave me the chance and I'm not even joking.
Jussi
Registered User
It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Did you watch the game even? Kupari/Heponiemi/Nyman spent at least a minute in their own zone AT LEAST ONCE, so that increased their ice time above expected.
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
I'm not sure would Nordgren been any kind savior to Finland in these U20 WJC's.
Yes Nordgren is dangerous player when he has puck and he's double threat ( can make plays and score goals).
But he's still 174cm ( 5'9) tall and very raw physically and his skating isn't so good.
That kind player is easy eliminate to bigger and stronger opponents.
If Nordgren would have played with Heponiemi and Kupari that line would have been easy to shutdown.
Because Heponiemi and Nordgren aren't biggest guys on the ice and Kupari is more winger than center.
Sadly Canadians don't feel like they are the favorites when they lost to Finland 5-2 about 10 days ago or something. We all know how often between top countries when the other team wins the first game, it goes the other way in the second game and we are talking about the home team Canada being in that juicy position. It's not the ideal situation to go into this game for Finland but I still think the chances to win are about equal for both teams taking everything into account.
I think Finland will find their motivation against Canada and have close to as good game as they had against Canada in that practice game but is it enough because Canada has gone forward as a team since the last meeting. Canadians however are far from impressive and this is the meeting of the 4th and 5th best teams of the tournament. Sweden, Russia and USA are ahead based on results.
