Olympics: Team Canada 2022, Part III

[The Professional]

Not that it matters a whole lot, but why do people keep listing Bergeron as the C and Crosby the RW on that line? The last two times they've played together (all of the World Cup and parts of the 2014 Olympics) Crosby was the center and Bergeron was the RW. The last time Bergeron was the center was the 2005 WJC when Crosby was 16 years old.

. Bergie is the better face-off man which is why I lined him up at center but I'm not the coach haha, if Sid at C works best then so be it, I didn't remember who was lined up where the last few times, just that they payed together.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm okay with the goaltending. Price, Fleury and Binnington. You've got a guy who just reached the Cup final with a team that had no business even being in the playoffs. You have the reigning Vezina winner, and you have a perfect third stringer who won a Cup in 2019. Sure, there isn't the depth I would like in net as we are used to in other years, but the top end is just fine in net. Why would people be worried about Price and Fleury? I'm not. Especially with that team in front of them.

Price hasn't played a game this season and we still don't know when his next game will be. That's a big reason to worry about him. Fleury is an inconsistent goaltender who has actually cost Canada a tournament (very few goaltenders can claim that) and has plenty of weak playoff performances. His Vezina doesn't mean very much when his team pretty much couldn't wait to get rid of him. His play this season has been better lately but nothing inspiring, and he also hasn't played a game internationally in 18 years. There is no clearly strong option for Canada at the moment. Ideally someone will go on a tear in the next month but I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I doubt he was on the long list but Drake Batherson leads the NHL in PPG for RW and is second to Marchand in PPG for all Canadian wingers...

 

[Silky Johnson]

Slightly underrating the Russian defence, in my opinion. It’s their strongest D in about 20+ years.

That could be true but they are by far the worst of the "favourites" countries. So much so that I don't think Russia stands a chance.

 

[Zybalto]

I can easily deny that it was best on best honestly. Canada and USA did not have free reign to select all of their best players, basically the primary prerequisite for a best on best, and two of the teams weren't even national teams, the other prerequisite within this context. One of the gimmick teams even pitted players against their own national teams within the tournament. That bad memory is passing though and I would rather not discuss gimmick tournaments that by their very nature were not best on best. It has some relevance for things like chemistry I admit but all I know of it is that Marchand Crosby and Bergeron played well.

Even though Canada and the US were not able to select anyone 23 and under, Canada was only missing maybe 3 players at most(?)and the US was an all-around disaster anyways and maybe it was better to keep the kids away from that team.

I do know that no one was slacking off and there were some great hockey games played that tourney and it really does bode well for Canada that they didn't have their complete A team and still won it all.

Just check out the Canada/Russia semi-final game again. Both teams giving it all to win with Russia having Ovi/Panarin/Malkin/Kuznetsov/Tarasenko/Kucherov up front for Canada to deal with. Great game.

 

[Big Phil]

Price hasn't played a game this season and we still don't know when his next game will be. That's a big reason to worry about him. Fleury is an inconsistent goaltender who has actually cost Canada a tournament (very few goaltenders can claim that) and has plenty of weak playoff performances. His Vezina doesn't mean very much when his team pretty much couldn't wait to get rid of him. His play this season has been better lately but nothing inspiring, and he also hasn't played a game internationally in 18 years. There is no clearly strong option for Canada at the moment. Ideally someone will go on a tear in the next month but I wouldn't bet on that.

Okay, fair enough with Price. His status is unknown. I have to say though, Fleury cost Canada the WJC in 2004 when he was 19! I mean, that's hanging onto things a bit much isn't it? He was the 3rd stringer on the 2010 Olympic team. He did win the Vezina, I don't know how that became a bad thing. Vegas got rid of him because they couldn't keep two very good goalies. Fleury was stellar in the Colorado series last year, definitely won that for the Knights. Struggled against the Habs though. But he somehow has posted 2 shutouts already with that Hawks team who are just plain bad. I am okay with him on there. I don't see him screwing up. We don't need a goalie to steal anything, just one that can basically be there sufficiently.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

That could be true but they are by far the worst of the "favourites" countries. So much so that I don't think Russia stands a chance.

Yeah, they are the worst of the top 4 nations, better than Finland if we expand it to top 6. That said I do think they have a chance, if they pick the right players for D then I would describe the D as ‘competent’ at a best on best level, which it never was before. With Vasilevsky in net behind a competent defence, they definitely stand a chance.

 

[jfc64]

In my mind out of 10

Canada

O: 10/10 D: 9/10 G: 8/10 (+2) =28

USA

O: 8/10 D: 9/10 G: 9/10 =26

Russia

O: 9/10 D: 7/10 (+2) G: 9/10 (-1) = 25

Sweden

O: 8/10 (+1) D: 8/10 G: 8/10 (-1) = 24

Finland

O: 8/10 (+1) D: 6/10 G: 7/10 (-1) = 21

 

[JackSlater]

Okay, fair enough with Price. His status is unknown. I have to say though, Fleury cost Canada the WJC in 2004 when he was 19! I mean, that's hanging onto things a bit much isn't it? He was the 3rd stringer on the 2010 Olympic team. He did win the Vezina, I don't know how that became a bad thing. Vegas got rid of him because they couldn't keep two very good goalies. Fleury was stellar in the Colorado series last year, definitely won that for the Knights. Struggled against the Habs though. But he somehow has posted 2 shutouts already with that Hawks team who are just plain bad. I am okay with him on there. I don't see him screwing up. We don't need a goalie to steal anything, just one that can basically be there sufficiently.

Fleury providing the most memorably costly performance for a Canadian goaltender is memorable, especially when it is the most recent game he has played internationally. He also had another memorable gaffe just a few months ago in the playoffs against Montreal. Vegas didn't just get rid of him because there were two goaltenders, Vegas decided to go with a different goaltender during the playoffs and then traded him away. That was two years in a row where Vegas went with a different goaltender in the playoffs. The same way that Pittsburgh went with a different goaltender in the playoffs with Murray in 2016 (Murray started the playoffs in 2016, but after Fleury came back they let him play and then switched back to Murray) and 2017. He had plenty of trainwreck series for Pittsburgh and for most of his career has been roughly an average NHL goaltender with a propensity for costly errors. I'll give him credit for a very strong 2018 playoffs but other than that he's been a clear disappointment when the games matter during his professional career.

Again, this is a guy who had his team go to a different goaltender in the playoffs in four of the last six seasons, who was often cited as the biggest weakness in Pittsburgh for several years in the early 2010s, and whose last international game saw him provide shaky goaltending to let USA get back in the game before banking the championship winning goal into his own net. I agree that Canada doesn't need a goaltender to steal things but rather one who can just be steady, which is why Fleury is a bad option.

 

[centipede2233]

Fleury providing the most memorably costly performance for a Canadian goaltender is memorable, especially when it is the most recent game he has played internationally. He also had another memorable gaffe just a few months ago in the playoffs against Montreal. Vegas didn't just get rid of him because there were two goaltenders, Vegas decided to go with a different goaltender during the playoffs and then traded him away. That was two years in a row where Vegas went with a different goaltender in the playoffs. The same way that Pittsburgh went with a different goaltender in the playoffs with Murray in 2016 (Murray started the playoffs in 2016, but after Fleury came back they let him play and then switched back to Murray) and 2017. He had plenty of trainwreck series for Pittsburgh and for most of his career has been roughly an average NHL goaltender with a propensity for costly errors. I'll give him credit for a very strong 2018 playoffs but other than that he's been a clear disappointment when the games matter during his professional career.

Again, this is a guy who had his team go to a different goaltender in the playoffs in four of the last six seasons, who was often cited as the biggest weakness in Pittsburgh for several years in the early 2010s, and whose last international game saw him provide shaky goaltending to let USA get back in the game before banking the championship winning goal into his own net. I agree that Canada doesn't need a goaltender to steal things but rather one who can just be steady, which is why Fleury is a bad option.

You took the words out of my mouth

 

[centipede2233]

I’m done talking about roster construction with the news today about COVID protocol’s being strict 3-5 quarantine for infected players. It’s looking really grim now. COVID really did screw this world up real good.

 

[SportsFan94]

Tavares is definitely making team Canada barring injury, and will likely will be one of the leaders on the team.

 

[centipede2233]

Tavares is definitely making team Canada barring injury, and will likely will be one of the leaders on the team.

That’s if nhlers go…..

 

[Eye of Ra]

Kadri gets no love. He is just as good as Ryan O Rielly and others.

2.

Nazem Kadri (C)

Colorado Avalanche

22

11

23

34

1.55

30

7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If people think Kadri is a douche and therefore should not be on the team, then the same can be said about Marchand.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Kadri gets no love. He is just as good as Ryan O Rielly and others.

2.

Nazem Kadri (C)

Colorado Avalanche

22

11

23

34

1.55

30

7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If people think Kadri is a douche and therefore should not be on the team, then the same can be said about Marchand.

Lebrun said he isn't on the 50 man list. Which is kind of the end of the discussion.

 

[Big Phil]

Fleury providing the most memorably costly performance for a Canadian goaltender is memorable, especially when it is the most recent game he has played internationally. He also had another memorable gaffe just a few months ago in the playoffs against Montreal. Vegas didn't just get rid of him because there were two goaltenders, Vegas decided to go with a different goaltender during the playoffs and then traded him away. That was two years in a row where Vegas went with a different goaltender in the playoffs. The same way that Pittsburgh went with a different goaltender in the playoffs with Murray in 2016 (Murray started the playoffs in 2016, but after Fleury came back they let him play and then switched back to Murray) and 2017. He had plenty of trainwreck series for Pittsburgh and for most of his career has been roughly an average NHL goaltender with a propensity for costly errors. I'll give him credit for a very strong 2018 playoffs but other than that he's been a clear disappointment when the games matter during his professional career.

Again, this is a guy who had his team go to a different goaltender in the playoffs in four of the last six seasons, who was often cited as the biggest weakness in Pittsburgh for several years in the early 2010s, and whose last international game saw him provide shaky goaltending to let USA get back in the game before banking the championship winning goal into his own net. I agree that Canada doesn't need a goaltender to steal things but rather one who can just be steady, which is why Fleury is a bad option.

There has been a lot of "feast or famine" in Fleury's career. 2008, 2009 and 2018 postseasons were excellent. In 2017 he was still very good in the games he played, and he played more than Murray. It is obvious to me Pittsburgh made the wrong choice in getting rid of him and it looks like Vegas did as well. In the last 5 or so years of his career I don't know if there is a goalie who has gotten a shorter leash than him though. His career in Pittsburgh consisted of being excellent in bounce back games where he played poor the game before. I think he is on the roster, but they might have someone like Binnington or Blackwood as the starter if Price isn't available.

It may not matter in the end though. My spidey sense is telling me not to get terribly excited about the Olympics in China with so much uncertainty. We may not even be going, or NHLers may not at least.

 

[Big Phil]

I think that if Toews wasn't on the long list one of the media members who has a good read on these things would have floated that out there by now. Have to figure that he is there.

Also for all the gloom and doom of the goaltending situation, Canada still has obviously the strongest roster. You only need one goaltender and if the team in front is good enough the goaltending doesn't make a huge difference unless he gives the game away. The roster isn't as far ahead as it would have been in 2018 or as it was in 2014 and 2010 but it is the strongest roster. Of course the team can still lose and this time I'd take the field over Canada if betting, but team to team this should be the easy favourite.

I'll take Canada vs. the field here if I am betting. That forward corps is just sickening. We are debating whether or not Tavares/Stamkos/Scheifele types even make the team. Heck, there are questions about Marner, even before he got hurt. That's pretty darn good when last year's 1st team all-star on RW isn't a lock. On defense you can still argue Canada has the best core, or tied for it. Makar, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Ekblad, Rielly, Theodore.................that is a lot of people's top 6. Basically you are at the point where Dougie Hamilton is perhaps a bubble guy that may or may not make it. That's pretty good company. Only goalies are where we aren't deep, but still can at least bring at least 2-3 capable ones.

It is funny, because I can remember 2002 and perhaps this is how paranoid we get in Canada over this stuff but when Roy pulled out of the Olympics there was a bit of panic. Funny now, right? But a legitimate concern then. Roy was clearly the #1 guy, and yet we still had Brodeur, Joseph and Belfour. Burke had a huge end of career burst and even then if you had to you still had Theodore breaking out, Luongo was probably good enough to be there if all you needed was a 3rd stringer. Potvin, Osgood, even Marty Turco to an extent. The field was deep, deeper than 2022 for sure for Canada. But I am just saying, we panicked in 2002 as well. Joseph hadn't won anything in his career, Brodeur still had that stigma that he was more a product of the Devils, Belfour had won by then, but he had a temper still. As Canadians we tend to nitpick all over the place. And yet we look at the 2002 goaltending and we were just fine. Shaky opening game by Joseph, but then solid goaltending the rest of the way, which is all you needed with that team, and with 2022 as well.

 

[centipede2233]

I'll take Canada vs. the field here if I am betting. That forward corps is just sickening. We are debating whether or not Tavares/Stamkos/Scheifele types even make the team. Heck, there are questions about Marner, even before he got hurt. That's pretty darn good when last year's 1st team all-star on RW isn't a lock. On defense you can still argue Canada has the best core, or tied for it. Makar, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Ekblad, Rielly, Theodore.................that is a lot of people's top 6. Basically you are at the point where Dougie Hamilton is perhaps a bubble guy that may or may not make it. That's pretty good company. Only goalies are where we aren't deep, but still can at least bring at least 2-3 capable ones.

It is funny, because I can remember 2002 and perhaps this is how paranoid we get in Canada over this stuff but when Roy pulled out of the Olympics there was a bit of panic. Funny now, right? But a legitimate concern then. Roy was clearly the #1 guy, and yet we still had Brodeur, Joseph and Belfour. Burke had a huge end of career burst and even then if you had to you still had Theodore breaking out, Luongo was probably good enough to be there if all you needed was a 3rd stringer. Potvin, Osgood, even Marty Turco to an extent. The field was deep, deeper than 2022 for sure for Canada. But I am just saying, we panicked in 2002 as well. Joseph hadn't won anything in his career, Brodeur still had that stigma that he was more a product of the Devils, Belfour had won by then, but he had a temper still. As Canadians we tend to nitpick all over the place. And yet we look at the 2002 goaltending and we were just fine. Shaky opening game by Joseph, but then solid goaltending the rest of the way, which is all you needed with that team, and with 2022 as well.

if nhlers go, and that’s a mighty big if, the goaltending for team Canada will be the worse on paper in best on best in over 40 yrs.

If I had money I’d gladly take the field vs Canada, without hesitation.

 

[JackSlater]

There has been a lot of "feast or famine" in Fleury's career. 2008, 2009 and 2018 postseasons were excellent. In 2017 he was still very good in the games he played, and he played more than Murray. It is obvious to me Pittsburgh made the wrong choice in getting rid of him and it looks like Vegas did as well. In the last 5 or so years of his career I don't know if there is a goalie who has gotten a shorter leash than him though. His career in Pittsburgh consisted of being excellent in bounce back games where he played poor the game before. I think he is on the roster, but they might have someone like Binnington or Blackwood as the starter if Price isn't available.

It may not matter in the end though. My spidey sense is telling me not to get terribly excited about the Olympics in China with so much uncertainty. We may not even be going, or NHLers may not at least.

Yeah with this new information about potential 3 to 5 week quarantine I've grown pretty pessimistic. If that is a realistic possibility then I do not expect the players to go.

I'll take Canada vs. the field here if I am betting. That forward corps is just sickening. We are debating whether or not Tavares/Stamkos/Scheifele types even make the team. Heck, there are questions about Marner, even before he got hurt. That's pretty darn good when last year's 1st team all-star on RW isn't a lock. On defense you can still argue Canada has the best core, or tied for it. Makar, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Ekblad, Rielly, Theodore.................that is a lot of people's top 6. Basically you are at the point where Dougie Hamilton is perhaps a bubble guy that may or may not make it. That's pretty good company. Only goalies are where we aren't deep, but still can at least bring at least 2-3 capable ones.

It is funny, because I can remember 2002 and perhaps this is how paranoid we get in Canada over this stuff but when Roy pulled out of the Olympics there was a bit of panic. Funny now, right? But a legitimate concern then. Roy was clearly the #1 guy, and yet we still had Brodeur, Joseph and Belfour. Burke had a huge end of career burst and even then if you had to you still had Theodore breaking out, Luongo was probably good enough to be there if all you needed was a 3rd stringer. Potvin, Osgood, even Marty Turco to an extent. The field was deep, deeper than 2022 for sure for Canada. But I am just saying, we panicked in 2002 as well. Joseph hadn't won anything in his career, Brodeur still had that stigma that he was more a product of the Devils, Belfour had won by then, but he had a temper still. As Canadians we tend to nitpick all over the place. And yet we look at the 2002 goaltending and we were just fine. Shaky opening game by Joseph, but then solid goaltending the rest of the way, which is all you needed with that team, and with 2022 as well.

There will always be dramatics in Canada when it comes to picking a best on best roster but the goaltending situation is on a whole other lower level now. I imagine that it would get significantly more scrutiny if Canada was coming off two tournament failures as was the case in 2002. There was always going to be hysteria in 2002 due to 1996 and 1998.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Lebrun said he isn't on the 50 man list. Which is kind of the end of the discussion.

Is there any other leaks from this “list”?
I read on here that apparently Devon Toews may not be in that list which is downright hilarious.

 

[SAK11]

Is there any other leaks from this “list”?
I read on here that apparently Devon Toews may not be in that list which is downright hilarious.

I know Ian Mendes said that Batherson wasn’t on it. Not that surprising given his status coming into the year but he’s played great this season.

 

[AB13]

Well, let’s take a look. Here’s the roster that I have seen most frequently in the USA thread (and I sincerely doubt Zegras was on their long list)…

Kreider-Matthews-Kane
Pacioretty-Larkin-Gaudreau
Guentzel-Miller-M.Tkachuk
Connor-Zegras-B.Tkachuk
*Pavelski/Hartman

Slavin-Fox
McDonagh-McAvoy
Werenski-Jones
*Fowler/Pesce

Hellebuyck
Campbell
*Demko

…and here’s us…

Huberdeau-McDavid-Stone
Stamkos-MacKinnon-Point
Marchand-Crosby-Bergeron
Tavares-O’Rielly-Marner
Scheifele/PLD

Toews-Makar
Doughty-Ekblad
Theodore-Pietrangelo
Pelech/Hamilton

Price
Binnington
Hart

…and now let’s compare head to head:

Huberdeau >>> Kreider
McDavid >>> Matthews
Stone = Kane
Stamkos >>> Pacioretty
MacKinnon >>>>> Larkin
Point > Gaudreau
Marchand >>> Guentzel
Crosby >>>>> Miller
Bergeron > Tkachuk
Tavares >>> Connor
O’Rielly > Zegras
Marner >>> Tkachuk
Toews > Slavin
Makar = Fox
Doughty > McDonagh
Ekblad > McAvoy
Theodore = Werenski
Pietrangelo > Jones

Goaltenders favour USA in theory, but there is no reason to doubt Price and looking at the above, does it really matter?

Once again, despite the rhetoric, the US may very well not even be our biggest threat.

I think this is an overblown assessment. I am Swedish, and have no horse in this race, but I think you are overestimating just how much better than the USA this Canadian team is.

Mackinnon - McDavid - Kane
Huberdeau - Matthews - Marner
Gaudreau - Crosby - Stamkos
Marchand - Eichel - Point
Connor - Bergeron

Slavin - Fox
Werenski - Ekblad
Toews - Makar
McDonagh - McAvoy

Hellebuyck
Gibson
Campbell/Price

Would be my combined Canada + USA team. I think Canada ceirtainly have more offensive firepower but the difference isn't as large as you are making out. The defense is where I think your assessment is really strange though. I think the USA have better defencemen, and a more balanced set of abilities/roles among their defencemen.

They US have slightly better goaltending in theory. I do think Canada have the better team, of course, but not by much. And in a short tournament any of the big 5 have genuine chances really (although I don't think Finland are on the same level as Canada, USA, Sweden or Russia, they lack depth and good defencemen).

 

[Dominance]

I think this is an overblown assessment. I am Swedish, and have no horse in this race, but I think you are overestimating just how much better than the USA this Canadian team is.

Mackinnon - McDavid - Kane
Huberdeau - Matthews - Marner
Gaudreau - Crosby - Stamkos
Marchand - Eichel - Point
Connor - Bergeron

Slavin - Fox
Werenski - Ekblad
Toews - Makar
McDonagh - McAvoy

Hellebuyck
Gibson
Campbell/Price

Would be my combined Canada + USA team. I think Canada ceirtainly have more offensive firepower but the difference isn't as large as you are making out. The defense is where I think your assessment is really strange though. I think the USA have better defencemen, and a more balanced set of abilities/roles among their defencemen.

They US have slightly better goaltending in theory. I do think Canada have the better team, of course, but not by much. And in a short tournament any of the big 5 have genuine chances really (although I don't think Finland are on the same level as Canada, USA, Sweden or Russia, they lack depth and good defencemen).

Address the direct comparisons I made, then. It’s easy to make blanket opinion statements. Point out exactly how the US and Canadian players match up in your eyes, and prepare for ridicule - there’s not much factual basis for disagreement.

 

[AB13]

Address the direct comparisons I made, then. It’s easy to make blanket opinion statements. Point out exactly how the US and Canadian players match up in your eyes, and prepare for ridicule - there’s not much factual basis for disagreement.

The direct comparisons you made are quite unfair since I don't think the best possible US lineup was used. Like not even close to it. Kreider obviously isn't a first liner for example. Paccioretty won't be on the second line or close to it. But sure. I will replace some players and say.

Huberdeau > DeBrincat
McDavid >>> Matthews
Stone <<< Kane
Stamkos = Gaudreau
MacKinnon >> Eichel
Point = Connor
Marchand >>> Guentzel
Crosby >> Larkin
Bergeron > M.Tkachuk
Tavares >>> Kreider
O’Rielly < Zegras
Marner >>> B.Tkachuk
Toews = Slavin
Makar = Fox
Doughty > McDonagh
Ekblad = McAvoy
Theodore << Werenski
Pietrangelo << Carlson (who you for some reason left off)

 

[Dominance]

The direct comparisons you made are quite unfair since I don't think the best possible US lineup was used. Like not even close to it. Kreider obviously isn't a first liner for example. Paccioretty won't be on the second line or close to it. But sure. I will replace some players and say.

Huberdeau > DeBrincat
McDavid >>> Matthews
Stone <<< Kane
Stamkos = Gaudreau
MacKinnon >> Eichel
Point = Connor
Marchand >>> Guentzel
Crosby >> Larkin
Bergeron > M.Tkachuk
Tavares >>> Kreider
O’Rielly < Zegras
Marner >>> B.Tkachuk
Toews = Slavin
Makar = Fox
Doughty > McDonagh
Ekblad = McAvoy
Theodore << Werenski
Pietrangelo << Carlson (who you for some reason left off)

Kane’s not better than Stone anymore on either side of the puck.

Point = Connor is hilarious and you know it.

O’Rielly < Zegras is absurd at this point and you know it.

You won’t find much support for Carlson being better than (or even on the same level as) Pietrangelo, and if you’re saying Werenski > Theodore then you better say Toews > Slavin and Ekblad > McAvoy because the gaps are just as notable.

And all this aside…look how many more “bolded” players even you put on the left than the right.