Taxes on UFAs signing in Montreal.

[salbutera]

Gotcha, a couple of those are before my time.

Andreychuk, Ohlund, Strawman, Maroon, Shattenkirk and Filppula isn't bad at all.

I think I'd pick Samsonov, Hamrlik, Cammalleri, Gionta, Cole, Radulov and Toffoli over that bunch.

That Habs batch is actually really solid when you think about it although Samsonov flopped here before bouncing back in Carolina.



Mike Cammalleri in 2009. Claude Giroux in Ottawa.

Giroux was end of his career

Cammy was never in prime Briere, Hossa, Tavares, Stamkos, Panarin category of player

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Giroux was end of his career

Cammy was never in prime Briere, Hossa, Tavares, Stamkos, Panarin category of player

Yeah and most of the teams in the NHL have never signed these guys either because those caliber of players don't make it to the UFA market every year. And I went with your standard. Cammalleri was a PPG player before he signed here.

Not sure why you're counting Stamkos and not Giroux though. Stamkos too is nearing the end.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yeah and most of the teams in the NHL have never signed these guys either because those caliber of players don't make it to the UFA market every year. And I went with your standard. Cammalleri was a PPG player before he signed here.

Not sure why you're counting Stamkos and not Giroux though. Stamkos too is nearing the end.

Especially when Giroux, near the end, allegedly, scored 79 points after signing with Ottawa and Stamkos, apparently not in the same stage in his career, scored 81 points last year.

 

[BLONG7]

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

I'm saying that the Canadiens have done very well on the Free Agent market in the last 20 years. They've attracted a lot of quality players because they've had to due to lack of prospect development.

Montreal doesn't struggle in Free Agency is my point.

With the BIG names they do
We have gotten some good players but never big stars

 

[Spring in Fialta]

With the BIG names they do
We have gotten some good players but never big stars

How many teams have?

A lot of these guys I mentioned for Montreal were first-liners/top-6 guys and Hamrlik was a top-pairing defenseman.

Seriously, what is the complaint here?

 

[salbutera]

How many teams have?

A lot of these guys I mentioned for Montreal were first-liners/top-6 guys and Hamrlik was a top-pairing defenseman.

Seriously, what is the complaint here?

That’s the entire point - those “names” 95% of the time end up in the same location - NYC or a US market w no / very low state tax

 

[Spring in Fialta]

That’s the entire point - those “names” 95% of the time end up in the same location - NYC or a southern market w no state tax

Like Minnesota? Or Chicago? Toronto?

Who's the biggest free agent the Florida Panthers have signed? An old Jagr? What about Dallas? Ed Belfour in the 90s? What about Carolina? San Jose?

Sounds like some poor reading of the tea leaves because of pre-existing beliefs that don't actually hold up to scrutiny.

 

[salbutera]

Like Minnesota? Or Chicago? Toronto?

Who's the biggest free agent the Florida Panthers have signed? An old Jagr? What about Dallas? Ed Belfour in the 90s? What about Carolina? San Jose?

Sounds like some poor reading of the tea leaves because of pre-existing beliefs that don't actually hold up to scrutiny.

As mentioned Tavares is the only “star” player in his 20s to have ever signed w a Cdn market.

Chicago hasn’t signed a star UFA since Hossa in 2010. I also have mentioned numerous times mid western players like (Parise & Suter) like playing close to home which is why Jets have been so successful holding on to players form that area (over 30% of their roster year over year are mid westerners) - but point being like CBJ w Gaudreau there is a 5% outlier when star UFAs don’t go to NYC or a no tax locale but it’s very rare.

Just read the Athletic articles, agents are now being very open they tell their UFA players not to sign w a Cdn market : JP Barry was very forthcoming this week high taxes + high cost of living makes it not worth it.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

As mentioned Tavares is the only “star” player in his 20s to have ever signed w a Cdn market.

Chicago hasn’t signed a star UFA since Hossa in 2010. I also have mentioned numerous times mid western players like (Parise & Suter) like playing close to home which is why Jets have been so successful holding on to players form that area (over 30% of their roster year over year are mid westerners) - but point being like CBJ w Gaudreau there is a 5% outlier when star UFAs don’t go to NYC or a no tax locale but it’s very rare.

Just read the Athletic articles, agents are now being very open they tell their UFA players not to sign w a Cdn market : JP Barry was very forthcoming this week high taxes + high cost of living makes it not worth it.

Can you share those articles?

It honestly just sounds like different players have signed in different places for different reasons and that there's no overarching narrative here.

I don't doubt that Canada may be a harder sell for some players (especially if it's not Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver) but I also look at the guys we've signed over the ears and free agency is the last place where I'd be crying the blues over our fortunes. We've done really well there.

I'm pretty sure even total busts like Alzner were pursued by many teams at the time.

 

[Shred]

Other than Leafs / Tavares no Cdn team has ever been able to sign a PPG UFA F

Mats Sundin in Vancouver.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Other than Leafs / Tavares no Cdn team has ever been able to sign a PPG UFA F

Habs have been able to sign 2nd & 3rd tier talents not top-20 scoring talents - in the rare exception one is available they always sign with a large US market (NYR, Phi, Chi) or a southern no tax market.

How many P/GP UFAs actually switch teams? And if we're talking about players who have hit P/GP, Cammalleri had seasons with 80 points in 81 games (with LA) and 82 points in 81 games (with Calgary). Gionta also had a P/GP season in NJ.

The dirty secret is that most UFA contracts, even for elite or 2nd/3rd tier talents turn out terribly. Tavares' and Panarin's UFA deals is actually one of the best period in the cap era. Usually they age far worse.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Giroux was end of his career

Cammy was never in prime Briere, Hossa, Tavares, Stamkos, Panarin category of player

Stamkos is 34, he didn't switch teams in his prime either. Hossa signed with the best up and coming team in the NHL. Tavares and Panarin signed with an up and coming teams that they wanted to play for and Toronto and New York actually have a slightly higher tax rate on big money contracts than Montreal. Briere at the time he signed with Philly was not playing at as high a level as Cammy was when he signed with Montreal and his contract aged terribly almost immediately.

The problem with this conversation is that signing UFAs almost never works out and when it does its either because a player was undervalued or the player fits an up and coming core that has been drafted and/or developed. You want Montreal to attract that "category of player"? Build a team where the guy can see himself competing for a cup with a clear role and make sure you have the cap space and flexibilty to sign him.

 

[JianYang]

Actually Brett Hull was *very* close to joining the Canadiens. He had essentially agreed to sign with Montreal. The Red Wings, Rangers, and Canadiens were in pursuit and Hull favoured the Wings because they were highly competitive at the time. But the Red Wings offer didn't entice him, and they fell out of the chase. The Canadiens offered Hull a two-year $10 million deal and Hull chose to join Montreal.

"About two weeks ago, when Detroit had left the picture (temporarily), I was firmly committed, I thought in my mind, to signing with the Montreal Canadiens," Hull said. "One afternoon, I called (agent) Mike (Barnett) and I was 100 per cent sure that I was ready to commit to the Montreal Canadiens."

The Red Wings then came back into the picture, offered $9 million and Hull went to Motown.

I think hull had mentioned that he had his bags packed for montreal and the Wings literally swooped in at the last minute.

I believe Gillette had just come into the picture and I guess he wanted to make a splash.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Duchene was another one who came close to signing in Montreal before signing with Nashville. In fact, Montreal was the only other team he actually visited in-person.

 

[OldCraig71]

Good drafting and development is more important than trying to lure big-name free agents. Build a good young competitive core and surround them with complimentary vets via free agency or trade. As for Pezz, he will get a shot to sign in a tax-free state south of the border once his deal ends here.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Duchene was another one who came close to signing in Montreal before signing with Nashville. In fact, Montreal was the only other team he actually visited in-person.

No way to know if he had any interest. Probably just trying to drive up Nashville's offer.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

No way to know if he had any interest. Probably just trying to drive up Nashville's offer.

He literally showed up in the city to tour it and meet in-person, which he didn't do with literally any other team than the one he ended up signing with.

Don't be ridiculous. No one's doing it all that for shits and giggles.

 

[salbutera]

Can you share those articles?

It honestly just sounds like different players have signed in different places for different reasons and that there's no overarching narrative here.

I don't doubt that Canada may be a harder sell for some players (especially if it's not Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver) but I also look at the guys we've signed over the ears and free agency is the last place where I'd be crying the blues over our fortunes. We've done really well there.

I'm pretty sure even total busts like Alzner were pursued by many teams at the time.

From July 23rd The Athletic article by Dan Robson:

“I think it comes down to Canada’s cost of living, Canada’s taxes,” says J.P. Barry, adding that from that standpoint, expensive markets like Toronto and Vancouver are at a particular disadvantage.

If the CRA successfully challenges ways that athletes have commonly used to reduce their tax obligation, even the appeal of playing for the team you used to dream of might carry a little less weight.

“It’s a significant enough difference that even if you wanted to play in Canada, when an agent, or financial advisor, or accountant points out how much the difference is in income, you might want to reconsider that decision. The stakes are high.”

https://x.com/i/web/status/1815817428225409306

From Aug’2023 The athletic article by Harman Dayal:

To hear agents explain it, the ideal market for many clients would strike the sweet spot between being a fun city with great restaurants, concerts/events and a vibrant downtown and also offering privacy so players can live somewhat anonymously. There’s peace of mind that comes with being able to relax and not think about hockey at all when you’re out in public, compared to some hockey-crazy cities where you may feel self-conscious about getting recognized or the pressure of always being “on.”

That’s why markets like Los Angeles, New York, Nashville, Dallas and the Florida teams are so attractive — you have the perks of a fancy, big-city lifestyle but don’t have to worry about getting mobbed by the public.

Stamkos, for example, has more of a laid-back personality which made the low-key lifestyle of living in Tampa Bay really appealing.

“I tell people ‘You have enough notoriety if you need to (pull strings to) get a reservation or go anywhere, but it’s not over the top,'” said Stamkos. “That’s what is pretty special about it — you have the sold-out rinks, the passionate fans but you can go to the beach or movies, and not get recognized.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1689318279826087937

Then there’s Marchessault who said #1 factor was Preds offered 2-years more term, which Hughes confirmed, and second factor was he had concerns about his young children being picked on at school if he had a bad game or was going through a bad stretch, which wouldn’t be the case in non traditional markets

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

He literally showed up in the city to tour it and meet in-person, which he didn't do with literally any other team than the one he ended up signing with.

Don't be ridiculous. No one's doing it all that for shits and giggles.

In baseball they do it all the time. Didn't Stamkos do it. I am sure players would do it to make other teams think they are serious. Duchene may have visited Montreal but he might only have been interested if his preferred team didn't make a good enough offer.

 

[JianYang]

From July 23rd The Athletic article by Dan Robson:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1815817428225409306

From Aug’2023 The athletic article by Harman Dayal:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1689318279826087937

Then there’s Marchessault who said #1 factor was Preds offered 2-years more term, which Hughes confirmed, and second factor was he had concerns about his young children being picked on at school if he had a bad game or was going through a bad stretch, which wouldn’t be the case in non traditional markets

This is basically what I've been saying for years using the Rangers as the case study, since they are traditionally the most attractive market for free agents.

You get big city amenities and perks while having all the privacy you need. The high cost of living would be a secondary factor, otherwise, the Rangers would not be as universally attractive as they are.

As for Tavares, I think he had poor advice. If he purchased a home in Toronto after signing his deal, he is giving the CRA an argument to challenge his residency status.

I presume this is where his case differs from a guy like matthews who is paying a very low tax rate by keeping his ties in Arizona.

I need the full facts of the case to have a better idea, but if you are going to structure the deal like Tavares and matthews, you probably want to rent a home in Canada for starters rather than purchase one and then spend your offseasons in the US (keeping your principal residence in the US).

I doubt guys like caufield are living in Montreal, for example. Even hugo I'm sure are not "living" here either, and I think there are potential tax benefits for them this way.

 

[salbutera]

This is basically what I've been saying for years using the Rangers as the case study, since they are traditionally the most attractive market for free agents.

You get big city amenities and perks while having all the privacy you need. The high cost of living would be a secondary factor, otherwise, the Rangers would not be as universally attractive as they are.

As for Tavares, I think he had poor advice. If he purchased a home in Toronto after signing his deal, he is giving the CRA an argument to challenge his residency status.

I presume this is where his case differs from a guy like matthews who is paying a very low tax rate by keeping his ties in Arizona.

I need the full facts of the case to have a better idea, but if you are going to structure the deal like Tavares and matthews, you probably want to rent a home in Canada for starters rather than purchase one and then spend your offseasons in the US (keeping your principal residence in the US).

I doubt guys like caufield are living in Montreal, for example. Even hugo I'm sure are not "living" here either, and I think there are potential tax benefits for them this way.

It’s very simple per Canada / US tax treaty you can’t be double taxed & if you are physically present on Cdn soil for 6-months + 1-day you are considered a Cdn resident & don’t get tax benefit of bonus payout since Canada views bonus as salary. Tavares resides in Toronto pretty much the entire year…. he f*cked himself

 

[salbutera]

In baseball they do it all the time. Didn't Stamkos do it. I am sure players would do it to make other teams think they are serious. Duchene may have visited Montreal but he might only have been interested if his preferred team didn't make a good enough offer.

Shanahan did it, even got a city tour w Gainey in a helicopter all the while knowing his wife had no interest in leaving the U.S. because of their young kids at the time

 

[salbutera]

Good drafting and development is more important than trying to lure big-name free agents. Build a good young competitive core and surround them with complimentary vets via free agency or trade. As for Pezz, he will get a shot to sign in a tax-free state south of the border once his deal ends here.

Absolutely - my belief has been for a long time Habs need to be what the Expos were due to necessity, completely focused on being the best homegrown program in their league.

Hopefully under HuGo this may come to fruition over time.

 

[OldCraig71]

Absolutely - my belief has been for a long time Habs need to be what the Expos were due to necessity, completely focused on being the best homegrown program in their league.

Hopefully under HuGo this may come to fruition over time.

If we can get 300-400 points a season from Suzuki, Caufield, Slaf, Demidov and Newhook we are set. We can add talented veteran depth to complement these guys. Buying big names rarely works out anyway.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

I really don't care about UFA signings to be honest. Habs shouldn't ever sign big ufas anyways if they construct teams properly. Asset management turns into good trades to fill gaps. Sign team friendly contracts. Utilize TDL to bolster depth. UFA is only good on the 2nd day when all the crappy contracts have pretty much been given out. It's to acquire depth. Any team that uses UFAs to add core pieces have lost the plot. If UFAs don't want to come to Montreal, that's fine. It's not a big deal.