KeithIsActuallyBad
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I was told he was AHL bound after the playoffs last year.
Player Discussion Stuart Skinner
- Thread starter yukoner88
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MessierII
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- Aug 10, 2011
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Funny how a lot of people are picking Skinner to make Team Canada for the next olympics, despite how much hate he gets on here.
brentashton
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Not saying that stu isn’t worthy but have you seen what’s available for Canadian goalies? Hart is now persona non grata as well. If you have a pulse your are in contention.
TheNumber4
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- Nov 11, 2011
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Rebound Truthers are back. If Skinner is so bad at rebounds then explain why he's 11th best in the League for giving up Rebounds per shot this year. These are Goalies with Minimum 10GP so we can fit Pickard onto the list. With minimum 20GP Skinner ranks 7th best. The chatter around here makes it sound like Skinner is the only goalie in the league that gives rebounds, I can assure you even the best goalies in the League give rebounds. Maybe that's why Knoblauch realizes that it's the goalies job to make the first save and for the team to clean up the mess. Don't get it twisted, the best performing goalies in this League are getting plenty of help when they too give up rebounds.
Associated Athletic article about the Stat: Which NHL goalies are giving up the most — and fewest — rebounds per save?
Money Puck Stats themselves are here if you want to check other rebound stats: NHL Goalie Statistics
| Dan Vladar | 0.038 |
| Marc-Andre Fleury | 0.041 |
| Jake Oettinger | 0.044 |
| Cayden Primeau | 0.044 |
| Calvin Pickard | 0.044 |
| Charlie Lindgren | 0.044 |
| Filip Gustavsson | 0.045 |
| Carter Hart | 0.048 |
| Tristan Jarry | 0.049 |
| Laurent Brossoit | 0.05 |
| Stuart Skinner | 0.05 |
| Lukas Dostal | 0.05 |
| Sergei Bobrovsky | 0.05 |
| Karel Vejmelka | 0.051 |
| Alex Nedeljkovic | 0.051 |
| Jeremy Swayman | 0.051 |
| Adin Hill | 0.051 |
| Ilya Samsonov | 0.052 |
| Samuel Ersson | 0.052 |
| Scott Wedgewood | 0.052 |
| Joey Daccord | 0.053 |
| Petr Mrazek | 0.053 |
| Kevin Lankinen | 0.053 |
| Cam Talbot | 0.054 |
| James Reimer | 0.054 |
| Connor Ingram | 0.054 |
| Mackenzie Blackwood | 0.054 |
| Ilya Sorokin | 0.055 |
| Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen | 0.055 |
| Alex Lyon | 0.055 |
| Philipp Grubauer | 0.055 |
| Daniil Tarasov | 0.056 |
| Vitek Vanecek | 0.056 |
| Arvid Soderblom | 0.056 |
| Martin Jones | 0.056 |
| Juuse Saros | 0.057 |
| John Gibson | 0.057 |
| Logan Thompson | 0.058 |
| Joel Hofer | 0.058 |
| Linus Ullmark | 0.059 |
| Pyotr Kochetkov | 0.059 |
| Andrei Vasilevskiy | 0.059 |
| Joseph Woll | 0.059 |
| Alexandar Georgiev | 0.06 |
| Darcy Kuemper | 0.06 |
| Ivan Prosvetov | 0.061 |
| David Rittich | 0.061 |
| Jacob Markstrom | 0.061 |
| Semyon Varlamov | 0.061 |
| Jordan Binnington | 0.062 |
| Jonathan Quick | 0.062 |
| Casey DeSmith | 0.063 |
| Elvis Merzlikins | 0.063 |
| Kaapo Kahkonen | 0.063 |
| Joonas Korpisalo | 0.063 |
| Igor Shesterkin | 0.064 |
| Sam Montembeault | 0.064 |
| Jake Allen | 0.065 |
| Akira Schmid | 0.065 |
| Thatcher Demko | 0.066 |
| Spencer Martin | 0.066 |
| Connor Hellebuyck | 0.067 |
| Nico Daws | 0.067 |
| Ville Husso | 0.067 |
| Anthony Stolarz | 0.069 |
| Anton Forsberg | 0.071 |
| Devon Levi | 0.071 |
| Jonas Johansson | 0.074 |
| Antti Raanta | 0.076 |
Associated Athletic article about the Stat: Which NHL goalies are giving up the most — and fewest — rebounds per save?
Money Puck Stats themselves are here if you want to check other rebound stats: NHL Goalie Statistics
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
- Mar 3, 2004
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I dont think that giving up rebounds is necessarily the problem. Its how uncontrolled the rebounds are that becomes the problem.
One of the traits of a quality goalie is his ability to control rebounds as much as possible.
Some goalies are better at it than other goalies.
TheNumber4
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It's part of the overall rebound picture. There's rebound direction (which can be good or bad, and not captured by this stat) and then there's overall rebound control (the ability to corral and prevent rebounds in general, which is captured by this stat). Atleast on the rebound control front, we know Skinner is doing it at an above average NHL level. If people want to criticize rebound direction quality, then I'd like to see some examples backing that up. I've seen plenty elite goalies give up Grade A rebounds too. Sometimes a hard shot off the pads without much reading opportunity just happens.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
A few things.
The Oilers are really good this season at blocking shots. Meaning that shots that would often be screened and harder to track are often gobbled up by the Oilers. Also a lot more getting sticks in to deflect shots away. The shots that are getting through, generally on Skinner are from shooters that he can see,.
Another obvious factor is NHL miscellaneous stats are generally garbage. I don't trust the bean counters. The NHL seldom does a good job on this and thier stats are very subject to rink to rink to rink distortion and who's bothering to keep the stats. Its natural that some counters may be more diligent than others.
Another thing would be what is being constituted. How clearly defined is the rebound stat and does it include rebounds given up that are later swallowed by the goalie when he finds them. Skinner does the latter a lot and because the D box out well giving him that time to find pucks.
TheNumber4
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Oilers are doing a much better job not screening the goalie under Knob than Woody I agree. It’s an obvious directive under Knob to ensure that happens. All great defensive teams with associated great goaltending do the same. Whether they are better at shot blocking, I don’t know, has stats to back that up? Wait we can’t use stats though apparently cause bean counters are wrong.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
NHL beancounting on such things as Miscellaneous stats, like Hits, or TKA or GVA are bad, and subject to interobserver reliability bias and lack of standardization. That compounded with the above stats being very subject to what is omitted or counted and the whole range in numbers could be explained by questionable counting.
Even in the above do you posit or accept that Dan Vlader is the best goalie in the league at limiting rebounds? I don't.
Also of note Pickard gives up less than Skinner according to the stat, and that both goalies are disproportionately high in the stat. This would even seem to support my supposition that counter reliability is key. Given that Oilers play half their games at home these would be subject to whoever we have counting here. I do though ftr feel Pickard is better than Skinner at limiting rebounds but by no means do I see Pickard or Skinner as among the best when I watch games.
The stat is pumping out real oddities. The stat would have one believe Connor Hellebuck is among the worst in the league giving up rebounds. Hogwash, visually he's one of the best at eating pucks.
This list does a questionable job delineating as based on where respective goalies fall on the list.
TheNumber4
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Even with error in there and there is going to be a margin of error. It still paints a picture that the narrative that’s he horrible at rebounds is dumb.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
Rebound control vs rebound uncontrol would be highly subjective. It would basically be the opinion of the counter. Stats tend to fail as useful instruments when observables can be hard to classify or are poorly quantified. Any stat is only as good as the methodology, delineation, and quantification and counting of the stat.
Indeed in Skinner experiments (not the hockey Skinner, but behavioral Psychology it was quickly determined that counting henpecks or such thing was highly unreliable, that different counters would have profoundly different tallies of the same observed experiments. So much so that observation was ruled as useless and replaced with sensors that detect whether a henpeck occurred or not at sufficient strength to elicit reinforcement or schedule of reinforcement paradigm.
TheNumber4
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K you don’t like rebound stats cause whatever. How bout save percentage and Goals saved above expected which show that Skinner has been elite under Knob defence?
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
It doesn't paint anything other than it could all be counter bias and subject to rinks. It could even paint that some counters would be dilligent as I stated in counting all instances and others not. AFAIRC the NHl hasn't even been tabulating this for as long as some of their other miscellaneous stats.
Give you another. For Years Drai wasn't being given credit for the enormous amount of TKA's that he gets. But this season suddenly these are being counted and he leads the league. His game hasn't changed all that much and he's always been good at TKA. The NHL just wasn't good at quantifying and counting what they considered a TKA. These stats evolve, and the way they are counted evolve.
TheNumber4
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Counter bias. Or maybe the skinner haters have a bias of their own they’re not willing to admit. In any case, rebound stats that’s an Athletic writer relied on to write his article can be dismissed entirely if you choose. But the fact of the matter is Skinner makes the first save which is exactly what Knob and most any coach expects of him, which is leading him to elite numbers in save percentage and GSAx under Knob hockey. So however you want to parse his performance, he’s doing something right on the level of Demko who he’s performing just as well as under Knob hockey.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
No need to get flippant. I've carefully described why counting stats are often unreliable. Stats involving sensor detection are better. This is not an opinion, its fact, but its not a fact that would be well known to the NHL or a league that can barely tabulate any stat or properly enforce its rules.
TheNumber4
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Yeh sorry I’m a bit flippant cause no matter what it doesn’t matter what I say or what Skinner does as reflected by stars that prove he’s been a great goalie. So I’m using stats and because you’ve dug your heels in on a player, you’re just going to dismiss all the numbers to continue being “right” about him. Seen this story with Nuge, so kinda know where this is going already. Let’s just agree to disagree, i think Skinner is a good goalie and I think stats even with error margins considered show that. You don’t, for whatever reason.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
That Skinner ordinal is among best in the selective stat and Demko among league worst is just another thing that should lend you to pause for further look. The listing of these goalies seems almost random for the most part.
That said I do feel that Skinner could be > average at stopping first shots. His size alone would facilitate some of that just in terms of how much net his stature covers. The pure probability is that a puck will hit a goalie the size of Skinner the majority of times.
TheNumber4
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Yeh it’s just cause he’s big. Like there’s not ever big goalies in this league that let softies leak through them. Size is all thats needed. Not focus. Not form. Not anticipation. Not consistency in squaring up properly. Not calmness.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
The stats don't prove this. Its also not a given that Skinner is "a great goalie" or that he's been this. That you believe this and word this is also your distortion.
My own distortion, admitted, still allows me to believe Skinner is an average starting goalie in the NHL. Not elite or great. That even Pickard basically an after thought is running better numbers in any stat while facing stiffer opponents can possibly show that Skinner may not be great as you allude.
Nuge? I was right on some of it. When this guy was putting up 40-50pt seasons I was saying he could do a lot more and that it was unfortunate his best season was his rookie season. I was critical of him not developing to do more, to be the Allstar type player he could be. That remained true during my expectations that Nuge could be a better player with bigger impact. Indeed Nuge these past two seasons for the most part has shown that he can be a more impactful and productive player. So that the criticism of Nuge not playing to his abilities in prior seasons to his 100pt season could be seen to have some merit.
I never said this. Just mentioned size as one factor. All other skillsets being equal I would pick big goalie over small. It is an advantage for Skinner to be big and I'm glad he has that while working on other aspects.
I've conducted the discussion in good faith. cheers in anycase while we disagree, which is fine. I still enjoy discussing things with you and will continue to beyond this disagreement.
TheNumber4
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I mean stats are used for any other goalie in the league to determine their level of performance or quality. Contracts are signed based on it. Teams are managed based on it. So why can’t we use save percentage or GSAX specifically for Skinner. That doesn’t make much sense to me. Maybe we can excuse the Rebounds stats based on error, but even then I wouldn’t completely dismiss them. It paints a general picture that should be considered. Skinner has size as an advantage but you made it sound like that’s all he had. Which can’t be true, no NHL goalies puts up his numbers with size and not much else. I feel you are focusing and magnifying his weaknesses of which they do exist and ignoring all his strengths.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
You're stating this in the middle of a game in which Skinner is being outplayed by an AHL goalie in his first NHL start. Skinner has every advantage in this and isn't facing McDrai, Boochbombs etc. For a first game this game would be a nightmare. Skinner isn't having to face that and is down.
Booch makes two perfect shots on the Young Yotes goalie, he stops both. They were the same shots as Bjugstad beat Skinner with. Yotes are also shooting high, got the memo.
