Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.

[The Panther]

Even by that (extremely narrow-minded) view of success vs. failure, where do you draw the line?

It's not a narrow-minded view of success. In pro-sports, success equals winning. Period.

If you get points for winning, what is winning? Winning the cup? In that case, 31 teams are failures each year. 31 GMs should be criticized each year. Or is simply making the playoffs enough?

I didn't think I had to clarify this, but since some of you think I'm an idiot, I will: Obviously, each franchise, in each stage of development, has different standards for relative "success". Yeah, I learned that, like, 40 years ago, but thanks for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

Nowhere did I say the Red Wings need to win the Stanley Cup to be considered a success.

Why are Montreal, San Jose and Chicago fans happy right now despite, in your eyes, their recent seasons being failures?

I can't speak for Montreal, San Jose, and Chicago fans, but why do you think they're happy? If I was them, I wouldn't be.

Or do you concede that there's wildly differing definitions of success and failure depending on where a team is in their competitive cycle?

Again, I'm not "conceding" something I've always known.

But this works both ways. Let me ask you, since you apparently are convinced Yzerman is already a success as a GM: At what point of missed playoff seasons will he become -- in your eyes -- a failure? 8 in a row? 10? 20? Or are you happy to miss the playoffs every year as long as the team improves by 1 point each season?

This is what I'm saying -- it's a results-driven business.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

I don't think teams that are in a rebuild are expected to make the playoffs. Even with that they almost made the playoffs last season. And you can't count the season they haven't even played yet as part of his failure. Just looking at roster moves is no way to completely judge a GM. And even judging roster moves is very subjective.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But this works both ways. Let me ask you, since you apparently are convinced Yzerman is already a success as a GM: At what point of missed playoff seasons will he become -- in your eyes -- a failure? 8 in a row? 10? 20?

I don't think Yzerman (in Detroit) is "already a success" overall. I think that's TBD.

I do however think you're still not quite acknowledning that success is measured differently based on where a team is at in their competitive cycle.

Stop talking about 8, 10, 20 years. Yzerman has been here 5 years. One could argue there's been 1 out of 5 seasons, the last, where playoffs were even an optimistic, best-case-scenario type of target for the team. They very nearly achieved that, which would have proven nearly every fan, expert, analyst, hfboards poster and betting site wrong about them.

Now, expectations are going up. Playoffs is a much bigger target now, with much harder questions being asked if they don't make it.

Or are you happy to miss the playoffs every year as long as the team improves by 1 point each season?

2019-20: 45 points (pro-rated)
2020-21: 70 points (pro-rated) +25
2021-22: 74 points +4
2022-23: 80 points +6
2023-24: 91 points +11

Can we stop with this "improve by 1 point" narrative until it actually happens at least once?

 

[The Panther]

I don't think Yzerman (in Detroit) is "already a success" overall. I think that's TBD.

We agree then.

I do however think you're still not quite acknowledning that success is measured differently based on where a team is at in their competitive cycle.

As I said, this isn't news to anyone. We all know it.

Stop talking about 8, 10, 20 years. Yzerman has been here 5 years. One could argue there's been 1 out of 5 seasons, the last, where playoffs were even an optimistic, best-case-scenario type of target for the team.

One could (not me) also argue that another GM could have had them in the playoffs by now.

Now, expectations are going up. Playoffs is a much bigger target now, with much harder questions being asked if they don't make it.

Again, we agree.

2019-20: 45 points (pro-rated)
2020-21: 70 points (pro-rated) +25
2021-22: 74 points +4
2022-23: 80 points +6
2023-24: 91 points +11

Can we stop with this "improve by 1 point" narrative until it actually happens at least once?

I wasn't talking about the past. I was talking, speculatively, about the future -- i.e., from here on.

And you didn't answer my question: If they miss the playoffs in 2025, is Yzerman a failure? In 2025 and 2026? 2027? At what point is he a "failure"?

 

[Pavels Dog]

One could (not me) also argue that another GM could have had them in the playoffs by now.

I don't doubt it. Many GMs lack patience and mortgage their teams futures for short-term gains.

And you didn't answer my question: If they miss the playoffs in 2025, is Yzerman a failure? In 2025 and 2026? 2027? At what point is he a "failure"?

It's not that binary, but I would say 25-26 is around where I start to view the NHL team performance as more important than the pipeline. Meaning if there aren't some benchmarks being hit, such as making the playoffs, I think it would cast a lot of doubt on the overall rebuilding effort from Yzerman.

24-25 is still a year where I'd say at least 50% of my opinion on Yzerman is based on what happens with the prospect pipeline. Missing the playoffs would still be a disappointment, but it's not the be-all, end-all of the rebuild.

 

[saska sault]

I don't doubt it. Many GMs lack patience and mortgage their teams futures for short-term gains.


It's not that binary, but I would say 25-26 is around where I start to view the NHL team performance as more important than the pipeline. Meaning if there aren't some benchmarks being hit, such as making the playoffs, I think it would cast a lot of doubt on the overall rebuilding effort from Yzerman.

24-25 is still a year where I'd say at least 50% of my opinion on Yzerman is based on what happens with the prospect pipeline. Missing the playoffs would still be a disappointment, but it's not the be-all, end-all of the rebuild.

Well said. I view Detroits chances at 50/50 of making the post season. Much depends on improved team defense, consistent goaltending and not having the huge low points/stretches.

A good rookie season from Edvinsson, Tarasenko being an even slight upgrade over Perron, another step by Seider and Raymond and a full season from Kane will all only improve the teams performance. Berggren and Johansson could help push the ceiling even further if they come in ready to be contributing players.

Coaching may be the wild card of all of it, think Lalonde and staff may be the biggest wild card of all this coming year. Can this team be ready to play game in and game out, because last year more often than not. They were not.

 

[Albatros]

The obsession about making the playoffs while they're not yet ready to be contenders is silly. Better to let the new generation learn how to swim mentored by the veterans rather than rely on those vets to make a run that isn't going to lead anywhere anyway.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Rebuilds are tricky man just look around the league you have Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa, Montreal, Columbus, Philadelphia, Utah, Anaheim, San Jose, Calgary, Chicago that have been rebuilding for awhile now it's not just Detroit. Rebuilds are not an exact science!View attachment 901748

Buffalo and Ottawa's have gone on to long too, although Ottawa gets a little bit of slack because up until recently they were run by a man that didn't give a single f*** at all, like if he could give negative f***s he would have.

I think Terry and Kim care about the Sabres I just think they are stupid.

Regardless you don't have the point you think you have you don't.

 

[SA16]

He's the same as almost every other GM and has an inflated reputation because he got lucky on a few mid round draft picks.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

The arguments about Yzerman is because there were a lot of smug types on these boards, and I'm not even singling out Wings fans, but the sorts who myopically focus on advanced stats and personality cults to form their opinions, who were dunking on every single other team and saying 'trust the Yzerplan'. Who weren't even assessing his moves, but just assuming the move must be 5d chess if HE was making it.

His career, his mythos, his success with Tampa, and then his Seider pick had people thinking he was infallible.

I think he's a fine GM, he shouldn't be fired or anything. But those folks are having a hard time acknowledging that to say, "Well what else would you have him do?" Is a massive movement of goalposts for a lot of posters.

Yes, he's been fairly mediocre. He's built a decent stable of prospects who, other than perhaps Edvinson, project to be low-end top-liners at best.

I'm not a proponent of tanking, and I'm glad the league has somewhat disincentivized it. But he didn't manafest a superstar out of thin air and Yzerman has done basically an average job which is fine, and we will see what he has when we see what Edvinson, Kasper, Danielson and Sandin-Pellikka become.

If you had asked an Yzerplan Stan 5 years ago where they would be now do you honestly think they would be satisfied with where it's at?

Especially the absence of any gamebreaker up front after Larkin (and I'm a fan of Raymond, but he's not elite of the elite as of yet).

So patience is good as a fan, and he's building a team that will be competitive. But I don't see this core winning cups as it's appearing to be built, and his biggest fans have to admit that he's a mortal and that a lot of good fortune goes into looking like a genius GM in the contemporary NHL.

 

[Indrid Cold]

As a Wings fan, I would say Y has done very well drafting, especially considering they constantly got biffed in the lottery. He's also done well with contracts for his own players. His FA signings, have been super bad though. I get the 'bridge player' concept, but the players, and the contracts giving to them, have been awful.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Thread created by a Toronto fan who was pissy that their own fan base ranked them less confident in their management than Detroit's.

 

[Mobiandi]

It’s actually impressive how little he has done in Detroit.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It’s actually impressive how little he has done in Detroit.

Yes. The team hasn't improved much from when he started, when their 2nd best player was Anthony Mantha and their top two prospects were Filip Zadina and Joe Veleno.

 

[ON3M4N]

The Avs went from 48 points to Cup champs in five years. How many more years does Yzerman need?

That's kind of a disingenuous argument. Lets not pretend like that 48pt season was the first year of their rebuild. That team had been "rebuilding" for some time. They had only made the playoff 1 time in the last 6 years leading up to that 48pt season in 2016-2017. starting in 2010 then drafted guys like....

Landeskog - #2OA
MacKinnon - #1OA
Rantanen - #10OA
Makar #4OA

In reality, it took Colorado 10-12 years to see the fruits of their labor pay off from a rebuild.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

That's kind of a disingenuous argument. Lets not pretend like that 48pt season was the first year of their rebuild. That team had been "rebuilding" for some time. They had only made the playoff 1 time in the last 6 years leading up to that 48pt season in 2016-2017. starting in 2010 then drafted guys like....

Landeskog - #2OA
MacKinnon - #1OA
Rantanen - #10OA
Makar #4OA

In reality, it took Colorado 10-12 years to see the fruits of their labor pay off from a rebuild.

We'll also pretend that it didn't take Toronto over a decade to turn it around because Matthews at #1 was the last of the core pieces they assembled.

 

[nbwingsfan]

the man has been there 5 years and hasn't even made these playoffs that can't be seen as anything but a failure

The Hawks haven’t made the playoffs in the 4 seasons (technically 5 already if you go by standings of the Covid year)

If they don’t make the post season this season… has their rebuild been nothing but a failure ?

 

[belfour30]

The Hawks haven’t made the playoffs in the 4 seasons (technically 5 already if you go by standings of the Covid year)

If they don’t make the post season this season… has their rebuild been nothing but a failure ?

Hawks weren't trying to rebuild until 2022-23. They were trying to make one last miracle run with an aging core.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Hawks weren't trying to rebuild until 2022-23. They were trying to make one last miracle run with an aging core.

No, Stan Bowman was trying to save his job and take attention off a sexual assault coverup...

 

[ON3M4N]

We'll also pretend that it didn't take Toronto over a decade to turn it around because Matthews at #1 was the last of the core pieces they assembled.

I think a lot of people underestimate how long rebuilds take. Tampa Bay didn't just happen over night either. They won the cup in '03-'04 and then failed to qualify for the playoffs in 4 of the next 6 seasons. While not every one of their top picks panned out, they still were picking pretty high for a 6 year stretch...

Stamkos - #1OA
Hedman - #2OA
Connolly - #6OA
Koekkoek - #10OA
Drouin - #3OA

It still took a perfect storm for TBL to do what they did. They turned Drouin into Sergachev, landed a future Vezina winner Vasi in the last 1st. Sprinkle in Kucherov in the 2nd round, Point in the 3rd and that's the foundation of those really good TBL teams.

From the time they drafted Stamkos to their first Stanley Cup.....was 12 years.

It's why I don't get why so many fans are all about blowing it up and rebuilding. It takes 10+ years and you still need your top end draft picks to become superstars in the league + find a few diamonds in the rough.

-Buffalo feels like they've been rebuilding close to 15yrs and they still are no where close to being a contender.
-Ottawa kicked off their rebuild in 2018, so they're going into year 7 of their rebuild and still haven't sniff the playoffs.
-Sharks are in year 6 of their rebuild and they're still at the point of trying to get as many high end picks as possible.

The closest team to winning a cup that went the "rebuild" route is Edmonton. They're rebuild started back in roughly 2009, so they're up to 16 years. We all know that rebuild. They had (4) #1OA picks in a 6 year period, with one being a guy whose likely going to end up being one of the greatest players of all time. Add to that they've had another 5-6 players drafted in the top 10 during their rebuild as well.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If you had asked an Yzerplan Stan 5 years ago where they would be now do you honestly think they would be satisfied with where it's at?

5 years ago we still had hope some of Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, Athanasiou, Mantha and Bertuzzi could be core pieces. We still had hope in a lottery win some day.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Stamkos - #1OA
Hedman - #2OA
Connolly - #6OA
Koekkoek - #10OA
Drouin - #3OA

People also seem to forget that while he's gotten absolutely f***ed in the lottery and hasn't gotten a talent like Stamkos, Yzerman seemingly hasn't flubbed any of his first round picks like those three.

Even if you want to argue somebody like Kasper is a low ceiling player, he's likely going to be a better NHLer than Connolly, and almost certainly Koekkoek.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

5 years ago we still had hope some of Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, Athanasiou, Mantha and Bertuzzi could be core pieces. We still had hope in a lottery win some day.

... Don't think there were very many who considered AA/Ras/Veleno as having "Core piece" potential in 2019.

In fact I don't know that, outside a few psychos, anybody ever considered those guys as having "Core piece" potential. Maybe a few that thought Veleno was still the exceptional status level prospect, I guess.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The Hawks haven’t made the playoffs in the 4 seasons (technically 5 already if you go by standings of the Covid year)

If they don’t make the post season this season… has their rebuild been nothing but a failure ?

The Hawks haven’t made the playoffs in the 4 seasons (technically 5 already if you go by standings of the Covid year)

If they don’t make the post season this season… has their rebuild been nothing but a failure ?

Their rebuild, their actual rebuild has only been going on for MAYBE 2 years, all you have to do to prove that is look at The Seth Jones trade.

Prior to 2022-2023 there was no rebuild in Chicago, there absolutely should have been but there wasn't..

If they are still shit by 2027 then yes.

If anything they are a failure for not starting the rebuild sooner.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It's not a narrow-minded view of success. In pro-sports, success equals winning. Period.

I didn't think I had to clarify this, but since some of you think I'm an idiot, I will: Obviously, each franchise, in each stage of development, has different standards for relative "success". Yeah, I learned that, like, 40 years ago, but thanks for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

Nowhere did I say the Red Wings need to win the Stanley Cup to be considered a success.

I can't speak for Montreal, San Jose, and Chicago fans, but why do you think they're happy? If I was them, I wouldn't be.

Again, I'm not "conceding" something I've always known.

But this works both ways. Let me ask you, since you apparently are convinced Yzerman is already a success as a GM: At what point of missed playoff seasons will he become -- in your eyes -- a failure? 8 in a row? 10? 20? Or are you happy to miss the playoffs every year as long as the team improves by 1 point each season?

This is what I'm saying -- it's a results-driven business.

His results have been YOY improvement every single season.

That’s something no other team has done for5 straight years

Once that stops, then it can start being an issue

All of his success is going to be dependant on the prospect pool he has built.

They’re all for the most part going to be major factors over the next 2-3 years.

If they fail, then he’s been a failure.

Until then, it’s way too early to judge