Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.

[belfour30]

No, Stan Bowman was trying to save his job and take attention off a sexual assault coverup...

Bowman only got fired because of the coverup. They gave him an extension shortly before he resigned.

 

[Amadeus]

Luck did play a part big time for him in Tampa as his scouting staff drafted really well in his tenure.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Their rebuild, their actual rebuild has only been going on for MAYBE 2 years, all you have to do to prove that is look at The Seth Jones trade.

Prior to 2022-2023 there was no rebuild in Chicago, there absolutely should have been but there wasn't..

If they are still shit by 2027 then yes.

If anything they are a failure for not starting the rebuild sooner.

You made it very clear:

If you haven’t made then post season in 5 years, you’re a failure.

So why is there suddenly context?

 

[SirKillalot]

I think most of the negativity is pushback against the over-the-top hype he was getting around the time he returned to Detroit. He was talked about with this aura of infallibility like he was the Belicheck of GM’s, head and shoulders above everyone else.

Some people were overhyping him, but most agreed he was doing a fantastic job as a GM in Tampa. They went to the Cup Final in 2015, maybe that was a bit too early, and didn't win until 2020 and 2021, maybe that was slightly too late given the Columbus-farce. Now they had some more pieces in place and hit well on both picks turning into solid players and trades turning into solid players.

Haven’t really seen an FO guy put on a pedestal like that before or since. It’s to be expected that rival fans would take some satisfaction in his being knocked down a few pegs.

Well if one gonna knock someone down a "few pegs" one better do it based on realism and not just make up that the team gonna contend too early.

It's quite fair to say that Yzerman's reign so far is, as I put it, a "moderate failure", because the club missed the playoffs last season (and the four seasons prior, though not really any fault of Yzerman's). The idea that they weren't even trying to win is absurd. Every NHL team is trying to win every game -- that's the nature of the beast. It's not a League where you get points for trying or even making logical moves. It's a League where you get points for winning. In Yzerman's reign so far, they haven't won. So, no matter what Yzerman did (even if he made mostly good moves), it's a still a "moderate failure". Sorry, but that's how big-League sports works.

If the four seasons prior isn't Yzerman's fault and they missed it one season. Let me ask this, what where they going to do in the playoffs? What is a success there? No a moderate failure is how you view it not the sports world in a cap league. If Yzerman for whatever reason had to leave the Red Wings today, his tenure so far would be seen as the opposite, a moderate success. More so, as a they did well, set up a prospect pool, got players into the lineup, started being competitive, having more players coming (whether they will succeed of getting into the lineup and becoming regulars we shall see, but the plan and opportunity is there for them).

In Yzerman's reign so far they haven't been expected to win yet.

I'd say the Wings are a year behind where they wanted to be. If they make the playoffs in 2025, most things will look rosy again for Yzerman and his legacy. Then, if they make it again in 2026, suddenly his reign will change to a "success" from where it is now, a "moderate failure".

It's a yes and a no. If they have had top 2 picks once or twice then I'd tend to agree, also lets say a little bit in the way that they were in a playoffs spot with some margin but lost out, it's sort of they would have liked to be there when the opportunity was there, but not from a that would make them much closer to winning. It would have given some playoffs experience yes.

But, to be clear, he's not a success yet -- not even close. Results are the only thing that counts.

And the results so far is they have been progressing every year, unlike most teams.

Believe it or not, I understand this. But you're talking about Yzerman's "goal" in autumn 2023. How about his goal in 2019? Did he say: "The goal is to miss the playoffs for five straight years and lose more games than we win, but to simultaneously develop the prospect pool"? No, he didn't.

Yzerman always said this would take time, he expressed it in the media, he expressed it to ownership, he expressed it anywhere. They hired him based on the knowledge that this is going take 7-8 years minimum, realistically anywhere from 8-12.

Nowhere did I say the Red Wings need to win the Stanley Cup to be considered a success.

So what is a success, making the playoffs and bouncing out?

2019-20: 45 points (pro-rated)
2020-21: 70 points (pro-rated) +25
2021-22: 74 points +4
2022-23: 80 points +6
2023-24: 91 points +11

This is what he is been doing, building a team. Yes, have they needed place fillers or pieces there who are stop gaps in reality just to learn the younger ones or be competitors for the younger ones to have something to reach too and get past, yes.

One could (not me) also argue that another GM could have had them in the playoffs by now.

And those GM's would have to trade future for present or overpay more for free agents as there been no luck per highest draft picks possible in terms of drafting high end franchise players. Short term questions whether that would be successful or not.

And you didn't answer my question: If they miss the playoffs in 2025, is Yzerman a failure? In 2025 and 2026? 2027? At what point is he a "failure"?

2027 is a good estimate whether they are on to building a contender or not. Preferably they make the playoffs this coming season if they going to improve, then points wise it should reflect into making the playoffs. Now development is not always linear, so could be a year similar to last season, and then going up in 2026 and 2027. But, 2027 and beyond I'd say their goal is to be a tough outsider, then depending on if players take the right development and/or if they manage to sign a top end player or two, they could move up into that contender status.

He's the same as almost every other GM and has an inflated reputation because he got lucky on a few mid round draft picks.

When it happens multiple times it becomes a skill. But, some luck has to be involved yes as there are a lot of factors.

If you had asked an Yzerplan Stan 5 years ago where they would be now do you honestly think they would be satisfied with where it's at?

Yes, only thing that is lacking is having being abled to draft 1st or 2nd overall and get high high end prospect/franchise player. Even though they found some others later with their picks.

Especially the absence of any gamebreaker up front after Larkin (and I'm a fan of Raymond, but he's not elite of the elite as of yet).

Yes that is what the team is lacking, either one has to be drafted, developed or traded for/signed. But, you mention a critical point. Raymond is not elite of the elite as of yet, exactly. So why is the expectations from some that Detroit should be. They can't be until Raymond among others grow into it right. So give them the time.

So patience is good as a fan, and he's building a team that will be competitive. But I don't see this core winning cups as it's appearing to be built, and his biggest fans have to admit that he's a mortal and that a lot of good fortune goes into looking like a genius GM in the contemporary NHL.

Well with good skills comes good fortune. Thing is and this has been said before and implied on multiple occasions, that the team might not ending up having as many "franchise players" from the build of it, as one haven't been in position to get those. But, the overall team is going to be very good and then one have to strive to get some high end players through UFA or trades when the opportunity is there.

In reality, it took Colorado 10-12 years to see the fruits of their labor pay off from a rebuild.

This, Landeskog was drafted in 2011 as 2nd overall. He became their captain and they won in 2022. 11 years it took from him being drafted until they won, and they weren't really seen as a contender until 2020, big contender in 2021. Now some could argue 2019, I'd say outsider then. If you really want to stretch it to 2018 I guess its possible. And they had more high end pieces through draft. They luck Detroit hasn't had, and thus when Colorado didn't have that luck, they got Makar anyway who lets be honest have exceeded expectations. Not saying he wasn't expected to be good at 4th overall, but not Conn Smythe good compared to other options at the time.

It still took a perfect storm for TBL to do what they did. They turned Drouin into Sergachev, landed a future Vezina winner Vasi in the last 1st. Sprinkle in Kucherov in the 2nd round, Point in the 3rd and that's the foundation of those really good TBL teams.

From the time they drafted Stamkos to their first Stanley Cup.....was 12 years.

Exactly, 12 years. Even though they made one final earlier, maybe too early for their plan. And won slightly too late according to plan, but they made a team that was competitive for years and not just a one off.

5 years ago we still had hope some of Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, Athanasiou, Mantha and Bertuzzi could be core pieces. We still had hope in a lottery win some day.

Which also show some of the challenges with different teams and their plans. Some players just don't make it up to what their projectory is, and many take longer time than expected. Some have flaws or just because of different circumstances don't end up fitting within the planned window. Veleno and Rasmussen can still be good pieces let's see.

 

[thegazelle]

Unfortunately, some fans have shorter memories than others and in this day and age of "what are you doing for me now?", past history seems to matter less and there is about as much rope given to a veteran GM than there is to an inexperienced one. I see the same thing with Holland in Edmonton.

Now, that said...it is hardly wise to base all of one's evaluation on the past and just ride those past successes. Lots of managers and people in general have done that, and fans have maybe been a bit more understanding. It's like music - even though a touring band can't play well anymore, the lead vocalist has lost his voice, etc. - fans may be more understanding based on memories of the past and the emotions that came with success then.

It is true both Yzerman in Detroit and Holland in Edmonton have made some questionable moves, if I can put it kindly. But both also had top echelon success in Tampa Bay and Detroit respectively. Hard to explain what happened when they left those teams - were they just "lucky" and was at the right time and right place? They built those previous championship teams.

Yes it's been a number of years, but the Red Wings SEEM like they are on the precipice of a breakthrough in their rebuild. They may need to make some trades to garner immediate success, but I for one (if I was a Wings fan) would give Yzerman some more time - I think his past resume has earned fans' patience. I realize some teams like the Avs have turned it around in record time, but most team's rebuilds seem to take a more circuitous route. I think Yzerman is a good GM, but that is of course based on past success, but hopefully that counts for something nowadays.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Bowman only got fired because of the coverup. They gave him an extension shortly before he resigned.

True. I always said it was a shame Bowman would get fired for the coverup... Because he should've been fired for being a shitty GM.

 

[Ezekial]

Buffalo and Ottawa's have gone on to long too, although Ottawa gets a little bit of slack because up until recently they were run by a man that didn't give a single f*** at all, like if he could give negative f***s he would have.

I think Terry and Kim care about the Sabres I just think they are stupid.

Regardless you don't have the point you think you have you don't.

Ottawa also got to trade a player like Karlsson to get the pick allowed them to draft Stutzle.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Their rebuild, their actual rebuild has only been going on for MAYBE 2 years, all you have to do to prove that is look at The Seth Jones trade.

Prior to 2022-2023 there was no rebuild in Chicago, there absolutely should have been but there wasn't..

If they are still shit by 2027 then yes.

If anything they are a failure for not starting the rebuild sooner.

That moment that you realize Chicago has graduated as many draftees since 2022 as Detroit has since Yzerman took over in 2019...

Man has repeatedly said he's going to build through the draft and some people still don't get it. The Red Wings fans in this crowd are the same geniuses that were pounding the table last summer demanding that we trade for EK65 (33) or Helle. (30)

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Good gms don't always have super succesful tenures , bad GM's sometime win cups or go on runs , if Detroit fans are ok with him whats the issue? Draft lottery hasn't been very kind to them

 

[Rebels57]

He did a good job in Tampa Bay. This article below is a refresher.



This is from his Tampa wiki.

While the Lightning would miss the playoffs in each of the next two seasons, Yzerman would draft Nikita Kucherov, Andrei Vasilevskiy, Brayden Point, Ondřej Palát, Anthony Cirelli, and Cal Foote, signed undrafted players Tyler Johnson and Yanni Gourde, and acquire Ryan McDonagh, Mikhail Sergachev, and Erik Černák via trade as future cornerstone roster pieces.

His biggest flaw there was drafting in the 1st round. He pretty much whiffed on all of their 1st rounders from 2010-2014, but yet somehow found amazing players beyond the 1st. Maybe that's luck, maybe it's scouting.


He's been pretty much awful in Detroit.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Like most GMs, he fell into the trap of handing out bad extensions to Tampa players he fell in love with.

He's been pretty much awful in Detroit.

Wat?

 

[Suntouchable13]

Good gms don't always have super succesful tenures , bad GM's sometime win cups or go on runs , if Detroit fans are ok with him whats the issue? Draft lottery hasn't been very kind to them

It's true. when you look at this division, can you tell me that Tre and JBB are better than Hughes and Yzerman?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It's true. when you look at this division, can you tell me that Tre and JBB are better than Hughes and Yzerman?

For as much shit as he gets (And he's made some stupid moves) Kevyn Adams has done a brilliant job structuring Buffalo's cap. Dahlin/Power/Tage/Cozens come in at around $33.5M through 29-30.

If they can ever get their shit together in other aspects, they'll have the cap to arm themselves with some serious depth.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He's made some questionable signings, but most of his picks haven't had time to develop yet to say that he hasn't drafted well. If he took over in 2019, was that draft under his watch? If so, drafting Seider on its own is a major win. Lucas Raymond is a good pick in the 2020 draft. Cossa looks like a good pick in 2021, and Edvinsson is too early to call a bust. It's too early for a lot of the later picks to have made a mark, so I don't think its fair to nail him to the wall for late picks not making it. Anyone in the 2022 or 2023 draft we can't comment on, as it is too early.

I won't say he's a great GM, but he had to rebuild the rebuild in a lot of ways. That takes time.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

He's made some questionable signings, but most of his picks haven't had time to develop yet to say that he hasn't drafted well. If he took over in 2019, was that draft under his watch? If so, drafting Seider on its own is a major win. Lucas Raymond is a good pick in the 2020 draft. Cossa looks like a good pick in 2021, and Edvinsson is too early to call a bust. It's too early for a lot of the later picks to have made a mark, so I don't think its fair to nail him to the wall for late picks not making it. Anyone in the 2022 or 2023 draft we can't comment on, as it is too early.

I won't say he's a great GM, but he had to rebuild the rebuild in a lot of ways. That takes time.

Not sure why anybody would call Edvinsson a bust right now considering he's looked like a stud in his NHL stints.

At this point he's probably a 2nd pairing D at worst.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Not sure why anybody would call Edvinsson a bust right now considering he's looked like a stud in his NHL stints.

At this point he's probably a 2nd pairing D at worst.

To clarify, I wasn't meaning to refer to him as a bust, it's more of not watching him and being unaware of his progress, in response to the OP's suggestion that Yzerman's draft picks aren't working out.

 

[DustyDangler]

It's factually true, nobody else will say it because It's Yzerman but it is the reality of the situation.

The man has been GM in Detroit since April 19 2019, and in that time the team has played in a grand total of 0 playoff games and let's be honest they don't look they are making it next year either, in fact they look like they took a step back.

Other than possibly replacing Perron with Tarasenko NOTHING Yzerman did this off season was good.

Trading Wallman and a 2nd literally for free, and then not replacing him was an awful choice.

Signing Jack Campbell and Cam Talbot was an awful choice because all it does is create a logjam in net, and yeah I know Campbell is probably going to be in the AHL but that still leaves you with 3 goaltenders that all expect NHL minutes and you can't give NHL minutes to 3 goalies that all know they are at least backups at this point.

Yeah there is a couple good draft picks in there and I know people will point that out but again those picks have led to 0 playoff games.

If it were any other GM in any other city, in any other sport and that GM missed the playoffs for 5 straight years that GM would get fired.

But It's Yzerman and Detroit so it won't happen but his track record is his track record he's missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, the team has missed the playoffs for 8 straight years, their goaltending is a mess, their defense is an overall mess, their forwards are OK.

If this team misses the playoffs again and they look like they it will be their 9th straight year and Yzerman 6th.

At what point do you stop living in denial and admit Yzerman has done a shit job?

5 years is not a fair marker for a full rebuild.

Yzerman was hired Apr 2019, & Bill Armstrong was Sep 2020. The two teams have had similar paths when it comes to total tear down and no lottery (end this dumb system) luck save for the bad kind. I think the two franchises are a good compare & contrast situation and the next few years will be interesting to see who did it better.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

To clarify, I wasn't meaning to refer to him as a bust, it's more of not watching him and being unaware of his progress, in response to the OP's suggestion that Yzerman's draft picks aren't working out.

OP still has a bug in his ass because of a poll indicating his own fan base is more negative on their management than Detroit on theirs lol.

 

[Sega Dreamcast]

If you're not a fan of the Wings and think Yzerman sucks, shouldn't you be happy that a competing team is being mismanaged?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Don't think people quite understand what "Building through the draft" means. When picks like Edvinsson/Cossa/Kasper/Danielson/ASP/MBN start busting, and he gets f*** all out of the later rounds, then Yzerman has failed.

Until then, people don't seem to get that Yzerman's "Questionable signings" have literally been plugs to keep the team competitive while those kids develop.

 

[jackp0t]

He was riding the Moritz Seider pick for the last of couple years,

 

[Shane Diesel]

That's kind of a disingenuous argument.

How so?

Lets not pretend like that 48pt season was the first year of their rebuild. That team had been "rebuilding" for some time. They had only made the playoff 1 time in the last 6 years leading up to that 48pt season in 2016-2017. starting in 2010 then drafted guys like....

Yeah, no kidding.

The Duchene - O'Reilly - Johnson rebuild starting in 2009 failed. We saw O'Reilly shipped out in 2015 and Duchene traded in 2017. The leadership of the team then moved to MacKinnon and Rantanen beginning in 2017. Makar doesn't see regular season ice until 2019.

Landeskog - #2OA
MacKinnon - #1OA
Rantanen - #10OA
Makar #4OA

In reality, it took Colorado 10-12 years to see the fruits of their labor pay off from a rebuild.

If that's the logic we're going to use, that a rebuild starts as soon as one of the core players is drafted, then Detroit has been rebuilding since 15/16, or Larkin's first year. Detroit is now going on year ten with nothing to show for it. Ouch.

The 16/17 season is generally viewed as the beginning of the current core's window, just because Landeskog and MacKinnon were on the team prior to that season doesn't mean the franchise was in the same organizational cycle.

Especially after winning the division in 13/14 and attempting to make the playoffs by adding at the trade deadline the next two seasons.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Oh, cool. Thread #246 with a title criticizing Yzerman on the mains.

At what point do the mods just start shooting these down and pointing them to the dozens of other threads?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

He was riding the Moritz Seider pick for the last of couple years,

Yeah bruh, his other picks have been terrible lmao.

People already starting to eat shit on the Cossa bust predictions.

 

[Fatass]

How so?


Yeah, no kidding.

The Duchene - O'Reilly - Johnson rebuild starting in 2009 failed. We saw O'Reilly shipped out in 2015 and Duchene traded in 2017. The leadership of the team then moved to MacKinnon and Rantanen beginning in 2017. Makar doesn't see regular season ice until 2019.


If that's the logic we're going to use, that a rebuild starts as soon as one of the core players is drafted, then Detroit has been rebuilding since 15/16, or Larkin's first year. Detroit is now going on year ten with nothing to show for it. Ouch.

The 16/17 season is generally viewed as the beginning of the current core's window, just because Landeskog and MacKinnon were on the team prior to that season doesn't mean the franchise was in the same organizational cycle.

Especially after winning the division in 13/14 and attempting to make the playoffs by adding at the trade deadline the next two seasons.

Yup. This is Yzerman’s first rebuild group and they aren’t looking so good. He might have to pivot