Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.

[norrisnick]

Doesn't that kind help my point? If ONE injury can do that, that's not a good thing and that's on Yzerman

You've mentioned a few times now that you have no idea what Yzerman is doing. Hop on youtube and listen to any one of the dozen plus press conferences that Yzerman has given since taking over. Building a contender in '23-'24 was never his intention. The vast majority of the pieces he's counting on haven't made the NHL yet and the vast majority of his free agent acquisitions were never intended to be anything other than a warm body so the kids don't get caved in on a nightly basis. The plan/hope is that once the kids he's drafted make the team that the loss of any one of them, won't result in as catastrophic of a drop in play as it does currently.

If the Wings were floundering and see-sawing back and forth between bubble and basement, yeah, you can start questioning the rebuild. But so far it's been steady progress from one of the worst rosters of all time. The Wings roster he inherited in 2019 was "old expansion rules" bad.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

How do you measure this fact exactly?

This was the first year where they could have gone to the playoffs. It's not a playstation game where you can trade Matthews for a couple of picks and 3rd and 4th liners.

Actually his best move was not signing anyone from the outside to huge albatross contracts that will hurt the team 4-6 years from now.

This I'd say was a bad move in a sense that if he waited he could have gotten a return. He wanted to do a move now, Wallman became a cap casualty because of what seems to be some off ice issues.

Oh no, a log jam of goalies most others don't want, how shall they survive this?

Maybe let those picked players mature enough to be given the chance to make the team or get into the team. Some gonna play in Sweden this coming season, you think tossing them out there too early is gonna help them make the playoffs?

What other teams do is their own fault. Detroit following a process they accepted taking about 8 years to do from Yzerman got into the position, with the first 2-3 being how to ship out contracts and see what core pieces are there and what's needed.

Yes, of course, making the playoffs is everyone's dream! Where is the parade and the hand out of the You Made the Playoffs-Trophy to put in the cabinet next to the You made it again on the Golf Course-Trophy? As a Leafs-fan I guess you should know this right?

And if that is what is needed to become stronger bit by bit for long term success then that is what will happen and its perfectly fine.

Agree, Yzerman is not a good GM, he is a Great GM!

Also why do you even bother with the post, when they become a solid contender Leafs got one more team to lose to, so why are you bothering? Are you scared?

Fear the Red Wings? Nah I hope he's GM for the next 10 years, because I 1000% believe he's bad at his job

 

[Stephen]

I do not think anybody claimed here that Avs were already a formed contender in 16-17. People are just pointing out Avs have started on their rebuild road quite a few years prior to that. Avs made the playoffs 3 times from 06-07 to 16-17. How can people say their rebuild started in 16-17 and keep a straight face?

Detroit will need another mini meltdown in 2025-2027 to scoop up a couple of franchise level players in Makar and Rantanen, or hit a grand slam somewhere in the early and mid rounds that we don’t know about to match Tampa timeline. Right now it just looks like it’s missing those franchise altering superstars. The way the Yzerplan unfolded it doesn’t look like they got enough high end talent especially up front. But if an Edvinsson turns into a Seider plus and they get their franchise forward they’ll be moving and shaking.

 

[Shane Diesel]

They also had MacKinnon, Landeskog and Rantanen on their team already and got lucky that Makar is as good as he is. When we went from 1st to 4th we got Raymond who is really good, but we didn't luck ourselves into a Makar. Larkin is the only player even in the realm of what Colorado had when they finished with 48 pts. Just having no Makar and the Avs easily don't win the Cup they did win.

I mean that team already had a 1st overall (MacKinnon) and 2nd overall (Landeskog) and Rantanan (10th overall) on the roster, all under 25 to build around. Yzerman’s best player was Larkin, who isn’t even in the same conversation as those guys. The highest drafted player on the roster he inherited was Zadina at 6th overall who was already trending into bust territory. Nobody else on that team was picked higher than Larkin at 15. People really don’t get how dreadfully barren the roster he took over was.

See below:

Also keep in mind MacKinnon's career high in points by 16/17 was 63 and Rantanen's was 22. Neither one was even close to the players they are today.

The growth in the 17/18 season is when MacKinnon and Rantanen became true impact players.

The Avs had the best odds for the first overall pick in 16/17 and 18/19 and fell to fourth both times. Yet, we don't hear any excuses about that.

I also guess we've forgotten Raymond, Seider and Larkin exist.

Hell, the Vegas Golden Knights went from not existing to a Cup win in five seasons.

 

[Just Linda]

Point is he won in tampa on the back of 5 superstars, 2 inherited in Hedman and Stamkos, and the aforementioned 3.

Without those superstars, no cups.

I'm pretty sure they could've won those cups without Stamkos.

 

[SoupNazi]

Fear the Red Wings? Nah I hope he's GM for the next 10 years, because I 1000% believe he's bad at his job

Once again, how do you measure the “facts” that you’ve presented?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Once again, how do you measure the “facts” that you’ve presented?

Once again, how do you measure the “facts” that you’ve presented?

the man has been there 5 years and hasn't even made these playoffs that can't be seen as anything but a failure

 

[SoupNazi]

the man has been there 5 years and hasn't even made these playoffs that can't be seen as anything but a failure

Who has declared this a fact objectively?

 

[norrisnick]

the man has been there 5 years and hasn't even made these playoffs that can't be seen as anything but a failure

The playoffs were never the goal over the past five seasons. You can't fail at something you were not attempting to do.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Who has declared this a fact objectively?

how is missing the playoffs for 5 straight years not a failure? unless you live in a world of denial

 

[SoupNazi]

how is missing the playoffs for 5 straight years not a failure? unless you live in a world of denial

You keep dodging the question. I wonder why.

 

[norrisnick]

how is missing the playoffs for 5 straight years not a failure? unless you live in a world of denial

Because just making the playoffs is not the goal for an NHL team. There is very little point to making the playoffs if you don't have the kind of team to do anything once you get there. That is Yzerman's plan. To assemble a well-rounded team that once it makes the playoffs can actually push and be successful rather than just get in and then book tee-times a week and a half later.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

This is the 300th thread hating on Yzerman.

I think he’s doing a good job and find it amusing so many people actively root for him to fail.

He inherited an awful cap situation and it took time to clear that. They’ve been rebuilding and are have a pretty good bunch of young players. I don’t get why people stopped getting the concept of a rebuild.

I think most of the negativity is pushback against the over-the-top hype he was getting around the time he returned to Detroit. He was talked about with this aura of infallibility like he was the Belicheck of GM’s, head and shoulders above everyone else.

Haven’t really seen an FO guy put on a pedestal like that before or since. It’s to be expected that rival fans would take some satisfaction in his being knocked down a few pegs.

 

[albator71]

If you look in the Atlantic Division its a pretty tough division, you have Florida, Boston, Toronto and Tampa Bay. I don't think you have a toughest division in the league, Detroit, Ottawa and Buffalo are moving in the right direction but again unless one or two teams from the top 4 regress it's gonna be tough to make the playoffs again this season.

 

[albator71]

Because just making the playoffs is not the goal for an NHL team. There is very little point to making the playoffs if you don't have the kind of team to do anything once you get there. That is Yzerman's plan. To assemble a well-rounded team that once it makes the playoffs can actually push and be successful rather than just get in and then book tee-times a week and a half later.

I agree look at Toronto they've been making the playoffs every year since Matthews got there how many playoff round they won one!!! So in my opinion Toronto has been a total failure! They have great regular seasons but they're in the same spot as Detroit, Ottawa, Buffalo and Montreal 2weeks later.

 

[The Panther]

How exactly is this not significant progress?

I actually stated that it was progress. Did you read my post?
_______

Look, there is room for moderation between two opposite perspectives on this question. We've seen some typically stupid posts attacking Yzerman in senseless spite, disproportionate to the extreme challenges the GM faced in inheriting a really bottomed-out roster. On the other side, we've seen some (in my opinion) remarkably charitable and optimistic posts -- which is what I'd expect and is totally fine from Red Wings' fans -- who are now claiming that the franchise "wasn't even trying to win" or whatever for the past few years (as if that's a thing).

Rather than take an extreme opinion, it should be possible to land in the middle-ground here.

It's quite fair to say that Yzerman's reign so far is, as I put it, a "moderate failure", because the club missed the playoffs last season (and the four seasons prior, though not really any fault of Yzerman's). The idea that they weren't even trying to win is absurd. Every NHL team is trying to win every game -- that's the nature of the beast. It's not a League where you get points for trying or even making logical moves. It's a League where you get points for winning. In Yzerman's reign so far, they haven't won. So, no matter what Yzerman did (even if he made mostly good moves), it's a still a "moderate failure". Sorry, but that's how big-League sports works.

I watched Yzerman play in the 1980s, and with what I know of him, I'm 100% certain that if we back to summer 2019 and told Yzerman "Your team is still going to be missing the playoffs in 2024", his response would not be: "Okay, fine! That's just swell and dandy, because, you know, I don't really want to win that badly for half a decade!" More likely, he would say, "F***!" and then start making moves to change the path he was going down.

But the key words here are "moderate" failure and "so far". All it takes is one big step forward and the word "failure" is erased from Yzerman's resume. I'd say the Wings are a year behind where they wanted to be. If they make the playoffs in 2025, most things will look rosy again for Yzerman and his legacy. Then, if they make it again in 2026, suddenly his reign will change to a "success" from where it is now, a "moderate failure". And, of course, all it takes is one Stanley Cup win to wipe the past clean and make him look like a genius.

How well a GM is doing is a moving target. It changes year by year. The tale of Yzerman's tenure is yet to be told.

But, to be clear, he's not a success yet -- not even close. Results are the only thing that counts.

 

[norrisnick]

I actually stated that it was progress. Did you read my post?
_______

Look, there is room for moderation between two opposite perspectives on this question. We've seen some typically stupid posts attacking Yzerman in senseless spite, disproportionate to the extreme challenges the GM faced in inheriting a really bottomed-out roster. On the other side, we've seen some (in my opinion) remarkably charitable and optimistic posts -- which is what I'd expect and is totally fine from Red Wings' fans -- who are now claiming that the franchise "wasn't even trying to win" or whatever for the past few years (as if that's a thing).

Rather than take an extreme opinion, it should be possible to land in the middle-ground here.

It's quite fair to say that Yzerman's reign so far is, as I put it, a "moderate failure", because the club missed the playoffs last season (and the four seasons prior, though not really any fault of Yzerman's). The idea that they weren't even trying to win is absurd. Every NHL team is trying to win every game -- that's the nature of the beast. It's not a League where you get points for trying or even making logical moves. It's a League where you get points for winning. In Yzerman's reign so far, they haven't won. So, no matter what Yzerman did (even if he made mostly good moves), it's a still a "moderate failure". Sorry, but that's how big-League sports works.

I watched Yzerman play in the 1980s, and with what I know of him, I'm 100% certain that if we back to summer 2019 and told Yzerman "Your team is still going to be missing the playoffs in 2024", his response would not be: "Okay, fine! That's just swell and dandy, because, you know, I don't really want to win that badly for half a decade!" More likely, he would say, "F***!" and then start making moves to change the path he was going down.

But the key words here are "moderate" failure and "so far". All it takes is one big step forward and the word "failure" is erased from Yzerman's resume. I'd say the Wings are a year behind where they wanted to be. If they make the playoffs in 2025, most things will look rosy again for Yzerman and his legacy. Then, if they make it again in 2026, suddenly his reign will change to a "success" from where it is now, a "moderate failure". And, of course, all it takes is one Stanley Cup win to wipe the past clean and make him look like a genius.

How well a GM is doing is a moving target. It changes year by year. The tale of Yzerman's tenure is yet to be told.

But, to be clear, he's not a success yet -- not even close. Results are the only thing that counts.

Re-read my posts and listen to Steve explain the point your are misconstruing in the bolded above.



The link is time-stamped to his addressing the question of "How important would it be to make the playoffs this year?" from the pre-season press conference last fall.

Making the playoffs hasn't been the goal/benchmark for success for the Wings. It's improving and developing kids, so that when they make it, they make it for good.

 

[Oddbob]

Source? Can’t find anything on this.

There isn't one, but some Wings fans know people in the organization and that is what was said to have happened. Not necessarily an altercation but more he had alienated himself from most of the rest of the locker room. No reason is known. It was also said when he was cleared to play after his injury, he held himself out a few days longer afterwards.

 

[Reality Check]

In other hot takes:

I just got done watching the Howard Ballard documentary. The man has been dead for 30 years and Toronto has still won jack squat.

 

[Oddbob]

the man has been there 5 years and hasn't even made these playoffs that can't be seen as anything but a failure

Then Dubas and Keefe must be the worst of the worst. They had all star level talent and made the 2nd round once. WOWEE!

how is missing the playoffs for 5 straight years not a failure? unless you live in a world of denial

REBUILDING! Apparently you don't know anything.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Then Dubas and Keefe must be the worst of the worst. They had all star level talent and made the 2nd round once. WOWEE!



REBUILDING! Apparently you don't know anything.

Dubas and Keefe are terrible, Dubas is among the worst GM'S in the league, and Keefe IS the worst in the league, I've said that, in this thread to you where have you been?

Dubas and Keefe being bad at their jobs does not mean Yzerman is not bad at his job.

They can all suck together, and they do.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think most of the negativity is pushback against the over-the-top hype he was getting around the time he returned to Detroit. He was talked about with this aura of infallibility like he was the Belicheck of GM’s, head and shoulders above everyone else.

Haven’t really seen an FO guy put on a pedestal like that before or since. It’s to be expected that rival fans would take some satisfaction in his being knocked down a few pegs.

Ain’t like he presented himself that way. The media does what it does and a smart fan should see through that. I remember most Detroit fans being happy he was there but knew he had his hands full and it would take years. Five years used to be the standard for rebuilds. In his case he had to wait out contracts before he could start adding.

I don’t think he’s been knocked down any pegs. I doubt anyone in the league thinks he’s done anything but at least a solid job, it’s just fans being petty which I doubt reaches his ears. If it did I wouldn’t think he’d give a flying fornication.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's quite fair to say that Yzerman's reign so far is, as I put it, a "moderate failure", because the club missed the playoffs last season (and the four seasons prior, though not really any fault of Yzerman's). The idea that they weren't even trying to win is absurd. Every NHL team is trying to win every game -- that's the nature of the beast. It's not a League where you get points for trying or even making logical moves. It's a League where you get points for winning. In Yzerman's reign so far, they haven't won. So, no matter what Yzerman did (even if he made mostly good moves), it's a still a "moderate failure". Sorry, but that's how big-League sports works.

Even by that (extremely narrow-minded) view of success vs. failure, where do you draw the line?

If you get points for winning, what is winning? Winning the cup? In that case, 31 teams are failures each year. 31 GMs should be criticized each year. Or is simply making the playoffs enough? So Toronto's a success each year when they are eliminated in the 1st round?

Why are Montreal, San Jose and Chicago fans happy right now despite, in your eyes, their recent seasons being failures?

Or do you concede that there's wildly differing definitions of success and failure depending on where a team is in their competitive cycle?

 

[Maple Leaf]

Detroit had their day
it is over now
play some detroit techno

 

[The Panther]

Making the playoffs hasn't been the goal/benchmark for success for the Wings. It's improving and developing kids, so that when they make it, they make it for good.

Believe it or not, I understand this. But you're talking about Yzerman's "goal" in autumn 2023. How about his goal in 2019? Did he say: "The goal is to miss the playoffs for five straight years and lose more games than we win, but to simultaneously develop the prospect pool"? No, he didn't.