Online Series: Star Wars: The Acolyte on Disney+

[Osprey]

We, the viewers, don't actually know how different it is. We're taking their word for it.

Andor was very different, and it was awesome.

The Last Jedi was very different, and it was terrible.

The idea that the Jedi are not always the infallible guardians of justice isn't a new concept, but it's not something that has been covered in the films or TV series to date. (aside from TLJ)

You're basically agreeing with me that the concept behind this show hasn't been covered before in canon outside of TLJ, which was terrible.

 

[NyQuil]

You're basically agreeing with me that the concept behind this show hasn't been covered before in canon outside of TLJ, which was terrible.

The concept itself isn't terrible, based on numerous examples in other Star Wars media.

TLJ was terrible, but not because of the concept itself.

Good guys in white hats and bad guys in black hats gets boring quickly.

 

[Osprey]

The concept itself isn't terrible, based on numerous examples in other Star Wars media.

TLJ was terrible, but not because of the concept itself.

Good guys in white hats and bad guys in black hats gets boring quickly.

Andor and the first two seasons of The Mandalorian weren't boring, despite being rather black and white. Some fans want to see that good vs evil paradigm, hated the hero deconstruction of TLJ and may not appreciate a series portraying the Jedi in a critical light. You've made it clear that you're not one of those, but that doesn't change that others are and the show may be divisive.

 

[Tawnos]

Andor is far from black and white. It's largely about people having to do terrible things in order to try to bring down a more terrible regime. It also created a character who works for the Empire whose motives aren't hard to sympathize with when seen from her perspective. A woman who is right about everything she's on about, but is getting snuffed out by the weight of bureaucracy. What NyQuil said was that it's good guys in white hats and bad guys in black hats that gets boring. Andor is good guys and bad guys mostly wearing grey hats. Personally, I prefer the lighter side of Star Wars, but I liked Andor a lot and appreciate the addition to the franchise's diversity in storytelling.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

By the way, Sith and Jedi are not the only two paths to using the Force. Significant moments in Clone Wars, Fallen Order/Survivor, and Rebels involve Force users outside of the Sith/Jedi paradigm.

 

[Osprey]

Andor is far from black and white. It's largely about people having to do terrible things in order to try to bring down a more terrible regime. It also created a character who works for the Empire whose motives aren't hard to sympathize with when seen from her perspective. A woman who is right about everything she's on about, but is getting snuffed out by the weight of bureaucracy. What NyQuil said was that it's good guys in white hats and bad guys in black hats that gets boring. Andor is good guys and bad guys mostly wearing grey hats. Personally, I prefer the lighter side of Star Wars, but I liked Andor a lot and appreciate the addition to the franchise's diversity in storytelling.

Good guys trying to bring down a terrible regime is a pretty black and white premise. Even if they do some bad things (and I'm not sure that the good guys in Andor do), it's excusable because of the circumstances. Han and Lando could be described as "grey hats," but we excuse them of their transgressions and still consider the OT one of the best examples of a black and white saga. Similarly, Andor has some characters that don't conform 100% to the hero or villain stereotypes, but they still work for either the good side or the bad side.

 

[johnjm22]

I find Leslye Headland to be a completely bizarre choice to create and run a Star Wars show.

Her prior work is mostly female focused comedy.

You can see from the trailers above the type of stuff she's done. Very cringy, immature, of-the-times type "comedy".

Not that there's anything wrong with doing that type of stuff, it's just weird to go from that to a sci-fi-ish fantasy epic like Star Wars.

I'm still open to it. Anything is possible. Maybe Headlend will create something great, but I'm expecting bad humor, clumsily injected contemporary politics and cringy girl power moments.

And before someone brings up Irving Kershner, he didn't conceive ESB. Didn't create it, didn't write it, didn't produce it. Very different situation.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

and cringy girl power moments.

This thread is just an overload of Star Wars fans being Star Wars fans. You just didn't deserve The Last Jedi.

 

[Osprey]

Headland reportedly got the job because Kathleen Kennedy loved how different and edgy her pitch for the show was. She's supposedly been a fan for much of her life, but just being a fan and having a convincing idea for a series shouldn't be a qualification to run a show, IMO. See The Rings of Power. At least Headland has credits on previous shows, but I agree that they don't inspire much confidence. I'm skeptical, but she has a chance to surprise me. If she doesn't, at least we have Andor season 2 later in the year.

Pranzo, the fans not deserving The Last Jedi is actually something that we can all agree on.

 

[NyQuil]

This thread is just an overload of Star Wars fans being Star Wars fans. You just didn't deserve The Last Jedi.

No one deserved it.

What a pile of crap.

The Force Returns was ok because it was a New Hope all over again. Nothing particularly original or innovative, but whatever, let's see where it goes.

TLJ was just a mess. RoS made an even bigger mess trying to fix the mess that TLJ left behind.

A disaster all around.

I have no inclination or desire to watch these films again which says a lot.

Anyway, this isn't exactly a new discussion, so rant over.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Good guys trying to bring down a terrible regime is a pretty black and white premise. Even if they do some bad things (and I'm not sure that the good guys in Andor do), it's excusable because of the circumstances. Han and Lando could be described as "grey hats," but we excuse them of their transgressions and still consider the OT one of the best examples of a black and white saga. Similarly, Andor has some characters that don't conform 100% to the hero or villain stereotypes, but they still work for either the good side or the bad side.

It's pretty well established that the Imperial regime is an oppressive, quasi-fascist dystopia, and I really doubt that any SW product will ever try to portray it in a positive light.

That said, the Imperial characters in Andor are not uniformly evil, or even ill-motivated. They are for the most part trying to catch criminals doing criminal things. From the omniscient third-party perspective, we know that the criminal behavior is actually well-motivated, so we root for the robbers instead of the cops. The heroic moments are things like prison breaks, stagecoach robbery, soldiers getting ambushed and slaughtered. That's pretty gray.

I expect something similar with the portrayal of the Jedi/Sith dynamic here. The SW universe is much more interesting if the Sith and Dark Side are portrayed as something more nuanced than simply "bad guys" and "evil". Again going back to KOTR, the storytelling in that series is compelling because the Dark Side is defined as passion/power/freedom, and the Sith are focused on strength and victory. Of course those attributes can have a corrupting effect, so the Sith can be corrupted. Well, the Jedi can also be corrupted when they lapse into being aloof and self-righteous. Thus, the importance of the Force being balanced.

I find Leslye Headland to be a completely bizarre choice to create and run a Star Wars show.

Her prior work is mostly female focused comedy.

You can see from the trailers above the type of stuff she's done. Very cringy, immature, of-the-times type "comedy".

Not that there's anything wrong with doing that type of stuff, it's just weird to go from that to a sci-fi-ish fantasy epic like Star Wars.

I'm still open to it. Anything is possible. Maybe Headlend will create something great, but I'm expecting bad humor, clumsily injected contemporary politics and cringy girl power moments.

And before someone brings up Irving Kershner, he didn't conceive ESB. Didn't create it, didn't write it, didn't produce it. Very different situation.

Russian Doll was phenomenal storytelling with a sci-fi undertone, and I didn't find it cringy or girl-power oriented.

 

[Tawnos]

It's pretty well established that the Imperial regime is an oppressive, quasi-fascist dystopia, and I really doubt that any SW product will ever try to portray it in a positive light.

That said, the Imperial characters in Andor are not uniformly evil, or even ill-motivated. They are for the most part trying to catch criminals doing criminal things. From the omniscient third-party perspective, we know that the criminal behavior is actually well-motivated, so we root for the robbers instead of the cops. The heroic moments are things like prison breaks, stagecoach robbery, soldiers getting ambushed and slaughtered. That's pretty gray.

I expect something similar with the portrayal of the Jedi/Sith dynamic here. The SW universe is much more interesting if the Sith and Dark Side are portrayed as something more nuanced than simply "bad guys" and "evil". Again going back to KOTR, the storytelling in that series is compelling because the Dark Side is defined as passion/power/freedom, and the Sith are focused on strength and victory. Of course those attributes can have a corrupting effect, so the Sith can be corrupted. Well, the Jedi can also be corrupted when they lapse into being aloof and self-righteous. Thus, the importance of the Force being balanced.



Russian Doll was phenomenal storytelling with a sci-fi undertone, and I didn't find it cringy or girl-power oriented.

Just for the sake of clarity, Lucas has essentially said that there's really no such thing as the "light side" in the sense you're describing (and that term almost doesn't exist in Canon - was more prevalent in the EU). You have the Force, which is balanced by nature, and the Dark Side, which corrupts the Force and unbalances it. This also explains the Chosen One prophecy. Obi Wan says "It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!" He doesn't say that Anakin was supposed to bring the Force into the light, but into balance. Balance and the Dark Side are in opposition to each other.

From that way of describing it, it's not really a matter of balancing the light and dark in a gray area. It's a matter of protecting the balance, which is the job of the Jedi and in order to best access the Force, a Jedi has to come to terms and acceptance of the Dark Side within themselves. In other words, the idea of a "Gray Jedi" doesn't make sense. Anyone who is using the Dark Side at all is corrupting the Force and therefore isn't walking a balanced line.

The other version of Gray Jedi is more about going against the Council... charting their own path to protect the balance. Qui Gon is sometimes considered a Gray Jedi in that sense. I would say Ahsoka truly qualifies for this. She's not a Jedi, but has her own path and own way of accomplishing the same goals as the Jedi, without using the corrupting power of the Dark Side.

So what happens when the Jedi lapse into the attitudes you mention (along with rigidity) is that they stop adequately protecting the balance, leaving it vulnerable to the corruption of the Dark Side. That's at best. At worst, they become unwitting tools of the Dark Side... which is arguably what happened in the Clone Wars.

 

[johnjm22]

Russian Doll was phenomenal storytelling with a sci-fi undertone, and I didn't find it cringy or girl-power oriented.

Glad to hear it. Maybe I'll check it out. Is the trailer well-representative of the show?

Doesn't change my opinion that she's an odd choice to be given a SW show based on her catalog of work.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Glad to hear it. Maybe I'll check it out. Is the trailer well-representative of the show?

Doesn't change my opinion that she's an odd choice to be given a SW show based on her catalog of work.

This is the official trailer, and it captures the tone of the series — including the tone shifts which happen as the story develops, which is integral to taking a frivolous character and making her situation increasingly more serious and mysterious:



It is indeed a story told from the female gaze, which may actually be part of why Headland was chosen. It wouldn’t be surprising if they continued to move toward female protagonists etc, which in some respects traces back to the very first scene in the very first movie.

 

[RandV]

It's pretty well established that the Imperial regime is an oppressive, quasi-fascist dystopia, and I really doubt that any SW product will ever try to portray it in a positive light.

I think underlying it all you need to establish different themes. The OT was about resistance against a powerful imperial order, form a historical perspective like the American Revolution or the resistance in Nazi occupied France. The prequel trilogy was a Fall of the Republic story, in terms of theme like the fall of the Roman Republic. With the ST the premise the OT left should have been a resurgent conflict with the bad guys bouncing back, WWII or Second Punic War style, but in their infinite wisdom the creative minds it was passed off to decide 'Star Wars is about rebels and imperials!' and hit did a quick and dirty a hard reset on the universe to put back to rehash the OT setting.

I'll be curious to see what this show is going for as they'll have to come up with something new for the Galaxy with no Empire/Palpatine.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think underlying it all you need to establish different themes. The OT was about resistance against a powerful imperial order, form a historical perspective like the American Revolution or the resistance in Nazi occupied France. The prequel trilogy was a Fall of the Republic story, in terms of theme like the fall of the Roman Republic. With the ST the premise the OT left should have been a resurgent conflict with the bad guys bouncing back, WWII or Second Punic War style, but in their infinite wisdom the creative minds it was passed off to decide 'Star Wars is about rebels and imperials!' and hit did a quick and dirty a hard reset on the universe to put back to rehash the OT setting.

I'll be curious to see what this show is going for as they'll have to come up with something new for the Galaxy with no Empire/Palpatine.

“Somehow, Hitler returned”

 

[I am not exposed]

I find Leslye Headland to be a completely bizarre choice to create and run a Star Wars show.

Her prior work is mostly female focused comedy.

You can see from the trailers above the type of stuff she's done. Very cringy, immature, of-the-times type "comedy".

Not that there's anything wrong with doing that type of stuff, it's just weird to go from that to a sci-fi-ish fantasy epic like Star Wars.

I'm still open to it. Anything is possible. Maybe Headlend will create something great, but I'm expecting bad humor, clumsily injected contemporary politics and cringy girl power moments.

And before someone brings up Irving Kershner, he didn't conceive ESB. Didn't create it, didn't write it, didn't produce it. Very different situation.

Sounds like something Jussi will enjoy immensely. He must be excited about this one.

 

[Osprey]

That said, the Imperial characters in Andor are not uniformly evil, or even ill-motivated. They are for the most part trying to catch criminals doing criminal things. From the omniscient third-party perspective, we know that the criminal behavior is actually well-motivated, so we root for the robbers instead of the cops. The heroic moments are things like prison breaks, stagecoach robbery, soldiers getting ambushed and slaughtered. That's pretty gray.

That doesn't seem grey to me. Andor is a lot like the years leading up to the American Revolution. The British were not uniformly evil or ill-motivated, either. They were trying to maintain order and catch criminals, too. The "heroic" moments in those years include the Boston Tea Party, burning down government offices and tarring and feathering officials. Those are all terrible, criminal offenses, but the Sons of Liberty are generally considered the good guys because their cause was just. I wouldn't describe the American Revolution as a grey affair because of that or WWII as a grey affair because the Nazis were not uniformly evil and the Allies did some terrible things to try to win the war. If those are gray conflicts for the same reasons that Andor is, then pretty much any conflict is and this discussion is meaningless.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That doesn't seem grey to me. Andor is a lot like the years leading up to the American Revolution. The British were not uniformly evil or ill-motivated, either. They were trying to maintain order and catch criminals, too. The "heroic" moments in those years include the Boston Tea Party, burning down government offices and tarring and feathering officials. Those are all terrible, criminal offenses, but the Sons of Liberty are generally considered the good guys because their cause was just. I wouldn't describe the American Revolution as a grey affair because of that or WWII as a grey affair because the Nazis were not uniformly evil and the Allies did some terrible things to try to win the war. If those are gray conflicts for the same reasons that Andor is, then pretty much any conflict is and this discussion is meaningless.

I mean, the idea that the British were the bad guys is basically just American nationalist propaganda. You’ve really never thought of that before? Honestly?

 

[NyQuil]

I mean, the idea that the British were the bad guys is basically just American nationalist propaganda. You’ve really never thought of that before? Honestly?

Some people describe the Revolution as wealthy landowners who didn’t want to pay their taxes.

 

[SepticFish]

 

[Osprey]

I mean, the idea that the British were the bad guys is basically just American nationalist propaganda. You’ve really never thought of that before? Honestly?

Some people describe the Revolution as wealthy landowners who didn’t want to pay their taxes.

The colonists didn't mind paying taxes as long as they were fair and they had direct representation in Parliament. They were denied representation, though, and Britain kept coming up with new taxes targeted exclusively at them in order to pay for past wars and assert control. They weren't just taxes on wealthy landowners, but on everyone, since most were on goods. Colonists also had to house and feed British troops during peacetime and had other freedoms taken away. Look up all of the Acts that the British Parliament enacted in the decade before the American Revolution and imagine if you'd be happy submitting to them. The colonists were certainly no saints, but they had reason to be upset.

Regardless of whether we agree on that, we can hopefully agree that the Nazis were bad, even though not all were pure evil and the Allies were no saints, themselves. If that isn't enough to make it into a grey conflict, then I don't see why it makes Andor into one.

 

[RandV]

The colonists didn't mind paying taxes as long as they were fair and they had direct representation in Parliament. They were denied representation, though, and Britain kept coming up with new taxes targeted exclusively at them in order to pay for past wars and assert control. They weren't just taxes on wealthy landowners, but on everyone, since most were on goods. Colonists also had to house and feed British troops during peacetime and had other freedoms taken away. Look up all of the Acts that the British Parliament enacted in the decade before the American Revolution and imagine if you'd be happy submitting to them. The colonists were certainly no saints, but they had reason to be upset.

Regardless of whether we agree on that, we can hopefully agree that the Nazis were bad, even though not all were pure evil and the Allies were no saints, themselves. If that isn't enough to make it into a grey conflict, then I don't see why it makes Andor into one.

Not going to get into it as I'm really not that well versed in the American Revolution but I think you started off on a false premise there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The colonists didn't mind paying taxes as long as they were fair and they had direct representation in Parliament. They were denied representation, though, and Britain kept coming up with new taxes targeted exclusively at them in order to pay for past wars and assert control. They weren't just taxes on wealthy landowners, but on everyone, since most were on goods. Colonists also had to house and feed British troops during peacetime and had other freedoms taken away. Look up all of the Acts that the British Parliament enacted in the decade before the American Revolution and imagine if you'd be happy submitting to them. The colonists were certainly no saints, but they had reason to be upset.

I mean, it’s a ****ing tax complaint. American cultural mythology paints this as a conflict of democracy versus tyranny, but at heart it’s a ****ing tax complaint. It’s honestly not at all a reason to start shooting people dead.

(to be clear, I do of course see the value of moving the civilizational calendar forward by establishing Enlightenment values as a basis for government. That is a compelling drama, but the actual practical reasons for the war were not compelling, and in 1778 nobody was about to write epic dramas celebrating colonists who were mad about having to pay for the war which had recently protected them all from being run into the sea by the French)

Regardless of whether we agree on that, we can hopefully agree that the Nazis were bad, even though not all were pure evil and the Allies were no saints, themselves. If that isn't enough to make it into a grey conflict, then I don't see why it makes Andor into one.

The Nazis are easier to deal with because they a) were an unspeakably murderous regime, and b) represented a clear-cut break away from democratic traditions and toward authoritarian fascism.

That’s the underlying structure of the Empire in Star Wars, which is why I don’t see them ever being portrayed in a morally neutral light. Andor is a very different show if not centered around a battle against Space Nazis. We aren’t supposed to be rooting for the Empire to kill Andor and save stormtrooper lives. But, the show does delve into the psychology of life inside a Nazi-like regime, and it’s very compelling precisely because it’s so banal rather than evil.

To illustrate, think about how much time we spend viewing the private lives of Imperial officers in the entire 25-hour arc of the original movies. Aside from a few seconds of Vader being evil and menacing in his private chambers, is there anything at all that could be described as a “home life”? All we know of the Imperial workforce is that they go around being jerks to each other at work.

Whereas in any given episode of Andor we see Imperial officers in their homes, with their families, and processing the conflict between their work duties and personal values. Those scenes are a deliberate choice to humanize the bureaucracy of a fascist empire, and to make the rebels’ violence a real threat to people we come to care about. The storytelling around this has to be very delicate for obvious reasons, so it’s rather impressive that a space sci-fi franchise would wade into those waters successfully.

 

[Osprey]

Not going to get into it as I'm really not that well versed in the American Revolution but I think you started off on a false premise there.

My premise was the entire sentence, which was a reference to their rallying cry of "no taxation without representation."

I mean, it’s a ****ing tax complaint. American cultural mythology paints this as a conflict of democracy versus tyranny, but at heart it’s a ****ing tax complaint. It’s honestly not at all a reason to start shooting people dead.

It was about taxes on the surface, but it really was deeper than that. It also wasn't the colonists who started shooting people dead. The British killed five people in the Boston Massacre and an 11-year-old boy a few weeks before.

That’s the underlying structure of the Empire in Star Wars, which is why I don’t see them ever being portrayed in a morally neutral light. Andor is a very different show if not centered around a battle against Space Nazis. We aren’t supposed to be rooting for the Empire to kill Andor and save stormtrooper lives. But, the show does delve into the psychology of life inside a Nazi-like regime, and it’s very compelling precisely because it’s so banal rather than evil.

To illustrate, think about how much time we spend viewing the private lives of Imperial officers in the entire 25-hour arc of the original movies. Aside from a few seconds of Vader being evil and menacing in his private chambers, is there anything at all that could be described as a “home life”? All we know of the Imperial workforce is that they go around being jerks to each other at work.

Whereas in any given episode of Andor we see Imperial officers in their homes, with their families, and processing the conflict between their work duties and personal values. Those scenes are a deliberate choice to humanize the bureaucracy of a fascist empire, and to make the rebels’ violence a real threat to people we come to care about. The storytelling around this has to be very delicate for obvious reasons, so it’s rather impressive that a space sci-fi franchise would wade into those waters successfully.

I agree with all of that. That's a large part of what I loved about the show. I just don't feel that it makes them grey. They're still the bad guys, IMO, and we want them to fail in their efforts to capture the rebels. We just find out more about their daily routines.

I suppose that we have different perspectives. You're judging the sides based on how the individual characters are represented and I'm judging them based on how the overall conflict is represented. We may have to just agree to disagree.

 

[NyQuil]

To illustrate, think about how much time we spend viewing the private lives of Imperial officers in the entire 25-hour arc of the original movies. Aside from a few seconds of Vader being evil and menacing in his private chambers, is there anything at all that could be described as a “home life”? All we know of the Imperial workforce is that they go around being jerks to each other at work.

Whereas in any given episode of Andor we see Imperial officers in their homes, with their families, and processing the conflict between their work duties and personal values. Those scenes are a deliberate choice to humanize the bureaucracy of a fascist empire, and to make the rebels’ violence a real threat to people we come to care about. The storytelling around this has to be very delicate for obvious reasons, so it’s rather impressive that a space sci-fi franchise would wade into those waters successfully.