Online Series: Star Wars: Ahsoka (August 23rd)

[HanSolo]

The red stormtroopers are the same as the regular ones -- not even a crab died. What's the point where good is so OG that no battle ever really matters? It's just spin and slash -- add something cute -- rinse and repeat.

This is as exciting as watching a war where one side has paintball guns.

I was going to say more but the bold says enough for me. This isn't new.

 

[HanSolo]

Every so often a piece of media has a line of dialogue that inadvertently summarizes the shortcomings of the very plot it sits within. The video game Destiny had the infamous "I don't even have time to explain why I don't have time to explain" line, regarding its hot mess of a plot (that was rewritten and smashed back together shortly before release). In a similar vein, the Mandalorian season had Bo Katan's line regarding Mandalorians "killing each other for reasons too confusing to explain" - which perfectly summarized how much of a jumbled mess the lore surrounding the various Mandalorian factions is. And we have another example in this most recent episode of Ahsoka - when Senator Xiao says "This reads like a Children's Fairy Tale."

Let me be clear - I'm not saying Ahsoka is bad. It's leaps and bounds better than Book of Boba Fett or Obi Wan or (especially) The Mandalorian season 3.

But folks also need to be honest, plot-wise, it's pretty darn underwhelming. It starts with a macguffin fetch quest and turned into a rescue mission involving riding in the mouth of space whales and on alien doggies. This is indeed writing down to the level of "Young Adult fiction" present in much of the animated Star Wars universe. There's nothing wrong with YA Fiction, but it tends to lack a fair bit of nuance and many get bored by it. Star Wars has always been family friendly, but that don't necessarily mean childish.

Any depth of character is dependent on the viewer having watched Rebels or The Clone Wars, and largely isn't actually present in the Ahsoka series itself. A good activity for assessing a character is to describe them without using their physical appearance or profession as part of that description. Based on the Ahsoka series itself (and not the predating materials from TCW/Rebels), almost all of these characters would have pretty underwhelming descriptions in that exercise.
Ahsoka, the very titular character who even had a whole backstory episode - Stoic, Troubled...... skilled with a lightsaber? Not really much there to describe her.
Sabine - Inferiority complex, in love with Ezra, and ????
Thrawn - Imposing, supposedly manipulative, and ????

The show is supposing we feel certain ways about characters, but not really doing much to develop them as characters or make people feel attached. For instance with Thrawn, he's supposedly this cunning strategic mastermind - but his actions in the most recent episode essentially boil down to "have some of a limited supply of troopers die, get surprised when a mercenary bails, don't capture or kill anyone at all, and retreat" and then him claiming victory. As if his 20 minute fight in the middle of nowhere meaningfully slowed down any of the heroes from getting to the Chimaera. (Note - this was also an occasional problem with his depiction in Rebels, where it's essentially just "let them escape" over and over again being a supposed master plan). And let's not get started on the fact he's been working with three Night Sisters who apparently can triangulate the exact position of people in space but he just let Ezra Bridger run around within a days ride for 10 years.

And we have needlessly tacked on Hera scenes that are pretty much just there to justify that she's still a character on this show, and to set up their coming Avengers-style team-up movie that Filoni wants to do.

There's plenty to like in Ahsoka. Chopper is still hilarious. The character and setting design in the unknown regions/new galaxy have been striking. The soundtrack has been really excellent at times. There's much more "adventure" than we've gotten out of any Star Wars content since the first two seasons of The Mandalorian. The Noti are adorable. But claiming the show is on the same level as Andor is just kinda silly. Even if you prefer one "genre" of Star Wars content or another, there's plenty you can evaluate in a fairly objective manner. And the dialogue, acting, costumes, directing, cinematography, character arcs, plot, and overall writing quality in Andor is leaps and bounds better than Ahsoka.

Who said this is as good as Andor? I mean, I'm with you. There's nothing overly remarkable about this plot and there's plenty of things about it I haven't fully enjoyed or wish had been better, but there's no real critical flaws that sink it either. It's just simple and at times a bit inconsistent or contrived (Sabine not telling Ezra some rather urgent information two episodes in a row just for future dramatic effect is particularly egregious).

But I mean, the comparison to Andor is pointless. Andor is presented, written, and for the most part executed as a mature and gritty prestige drama. One that takes its time to build out its narrative threads in a mature way that puts trust in the viewer to stay engrossed in heavier content. You can't say that about any other visual medium Star Wars project outside of a few narratives from Clone Wars and even then, it's not as deep in scope as Andor.

This Ashoka series is, by every measure a "classic" and simple Jedi adventure (in contrast to the Mandalorian being like a TV Western serial in space with a pretty loose overarching narrative, at least until the third season and they pretty much flopped at making the wider narrative more of the focus) and it's not trying to be much more than that. Is there room for better narrative writing? Sure. But given what it is and the struggle to tell these kinds of stories in a fun and compelling way after Empire strikes back...I just don't think it's reasonable to expect this show to go for everything it's trying to accomplish AND have Andor or better level writing. It would be wonderful to have that kind of mix, but I don't see Hollywood having that kind of capacity.

The two best Star Wars stories, New Hope and Empire, had fairly simple stories with the right basic elements coalescing into something timeless and beloved. I don't think when you get down to it, either narrative was free of contrivances or that either was wholly complex, but it worked for what it was.

That's not to say I think this show should be remotely held in the same regard, but as long as it's a fun time and generally entertaining, I'd say it's due positive marks. Imperfect can still be enjoyable.

 

[Hivemind]

Who said this is as good as Andor?

Two posters on the last page.

 

[Eco]

I have heard a lot of people who appear to hate Ahsoka, and honestly, I don't get it.

I enjoy the notion of Thrawn in the flesh, however his character so far appears very 'meh', as he relies so heavily on the Nightsisters up until this point.

Also, I have found myself annoyed a little things, like the Nightsisters having the ability to track Tano's ship in the thick debris, but not tracking Ezra for the 'years' that they have been stranded on this very planet, and ending his existence once and for all.

It's not great, but I hope they develop Hera and Thrawn more, as both characters just seem to be 'there'. And while I might be a hit harsh on Thrawn, I'm just sadden that he hasn't made any decision of importance yet based on his intuition, but always consults the Nightsisters.

 

[HanSolo]

Two posters on the last page.

Yeah that's nutty. It might be more accessible and fun than Andor. I'd give it that. In the sense that I can rewatch Ashoka casually and more than likely have a good time while Andor I'd really have to sit down with it and give it my full attention.

But there's no question Andor is the better show. Not even close. I think in terms of sheer quality there's very little that tops Andor in the Star Wars pantheon though. It's kind of crazy looking back just how good it ended up being relative to expectations.

I have heard a lot of people who appear to hate Ahsoka, and honestly, I don't get it.

I enjoy the notion of Thrawn in the flesh, however his character so far appears very 'meh', as he relies so heavily on the Nightsisters up until this point.

Also, I have found myself annoyed a little things, like the Nightsisters having the ability to track Tano's ship in the thick debris, but not tracking Ezra for the 'years' that they have been stranded on this very planet, and ending his existence once and for all.

It's not great, but I hope they develop Hera and Thrawn more, as both characters just seem to be 'there'. And while I might be a hit harsh on Thrawn, I'm just sadden that he hasn't made any decision of importance yet based on his intuition, but always consults the Nightsisters.

I don't know how valid this criticism is. The hallmark of Thrawn, as far as I understand him (never read the old EU books and barely watched his stint in Rebels) is that he's a tactical genius. Why pass up the advantages the Nightsisters provide? Especially with depleted resources.

I agree the whole thing with tracking Ashoka in the debris field when they can't locate Ezra is silly.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Two posters on the last page.

Why do you care?

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Every so often a piece of media has a line of dialogue that inadvertently summarizes the shortcomings of the very plot it sits within. The video game Destiny had the infamous "I don't even have time to explain why I don't have time to explain" line, regarding its hot mess of a plot (that was rewritten and smashed back together shortly before release). In a similar vein, the Mandalorian season had Bo Katan's line regarding Mandalorians "killing each other for reasons too confusing to explain" - which perfectly summarized how much of a jumbled mess the lore surrounding the various Mandalorian factions is. And we have another example in this most recent episode of Ahsoka - when Senator Xiao says "This reads like a Children's Fairy Tale."

I don't know what exactly to do of this, but I like it. Do you think these were auto-reflexive elements that were somewhat admitting narrative shortcomings or do you think you are using the work against itself and that the auto-reflexivity you propose only exist in your reading?

 

[Hivemind]

Why do you care?

Why do you care that I care?

I don't know what exactly to do of this, but I like it. Do you think these were auto-reflexive elements that were somewhat admitting narrative shortcomings or do you think you are using the work against itself and that the auto-reflexivity you propose only exist in your reading?

I think each of them are probably a little different in origin.
The Destiny one was a consequence of the entire game's plot being scrapped and re-written mere months before release, as they tried to find ways to stitch already produced cut scenes and dialogue back together with minimal re-recording.
The Star Wars examples, I think, are likely writer's attempting to create "in character" dialogue, but ultimately both lines just kinda backfire. With Bo Katan's line, we're supposed to empathize with her struggle to unite the Mandalorians. And with Senator Xiao's line, we're supposed to scoff at his arrogance at not believing the "fairy tale." The writer's are assuming we're going to look at it from the perspective they intend. But when a viewer isn't fully committed to these characters or their relationship to the plot, the lines end up backfiring.

Senator Xiao is such a flat, single-noted, and completely unnecessary character in the first place, that it's always hard to take what he says seriously. He's only there because someone in the writer's room decided they needed an example of how the New Republic was being run by incompetent, one-dimensional, power-hungry boobs, so they created the least empathetic character they could imagine. So, naturally, we're not supposed to side with him at any point. We're supposed to be offended that he suggests it's a fairy tale. But when the viewer is already annoyed by the fact that the character itself is a fairy tale trope, having him unironically call out the story as a fairy tale just draws more attention to it.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Why do you care that I care?


I think each of them are probably a little different in origin.
The Destiny one was a consequence of the entire game's plot being scrapped and re-written mere months before release, as they tried to find ways to stitch already produced cut scenes and dialogue back together with minimal re-recording.
The Star Wars examples, I think, are likely writer's attempting to create "in character" dialogue, but ultimately both lines just kinda backfire. With Bo Katan's line, we're supposed to empathize with her struggle to unite the Mandalorians. And with Senator Xiao's line, we're supposed to scoff at his arrogance at not believing the "fairy tale." The writer's are assuming we're going to look at it from the perspective they intend. But when a viewer isn't fully committed to these characters or their relationship to the plot, the lines end up backfiring.

Senator Xiao is such a flat, single-noted, and completely unnecessary character in the first place, that it's always hard to take what he says seriously. He's only there because someone in the writer's room decided they needed an example of how the New Republic was being run by incompetent, one-dimensional, power-hungry boobs, so they created the least empathetic character they could imagine. So, naturally, we're not supposed to side with him at any point. We're supposed to be offended that he suggests it's a fairy tale. But when the viewer is already annoyed by the fact that the character itself is a fairy tale trope, having him unironically call out the story as a fairy tale just draws more attention to it.

Why do I care that you care that I care that I... shiiiiiiiiiiit

 

[Sad People]

Also, I have found myself annoyed a little things, like the Nightsisters having the ability to track Tano's ship in the thick debris, but not tracking Ezra for the 'years' that they have been stranded on this very planet, and ending his existence once and for all.

I keep on seeing people bringing this up and i dont get it. I never got the impression that Thrawn wanted to find Exra or even cared about finding him, i dont even think he considered Exra a threat. I believe even in Thrawns first episode he alluded to it by a line saying something along the lines that he isnt a threat or he is of no concern to me (Thrawn). Finding Ezra means a lot more to Ahsoka, Sabine and the gang more than it EVER meant anything to Thrawn.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I really hope the show ends on a bang. A dud would really suck and have me nervous they're going the way of Mando, which just lost its lust. It feels like it may have peaked a few episodes ago, though I did really enjoy the episode Thrawn first appeared.

 

[Eco]

I keep on seeing people bringing this up and i dont get it. I never got the impression that Thrawn wanted to find Exra or even cared about finding him, i dont even think he considered Exra a threat. I believe even in Thrawns first episode he alluded to it by a line saying something along the lines that he isnt a threat or he is of no concern to me (Thrawn). Finding Ezra means a lot more to Ahsoka, Sabine and the gang more than it EVER meant anything to Thrawn.

Maybe, but he appeared to dominate Thrawn's thoughts in the SW Rebels

I don't know how valid this criticism is. The hallmark of Thrawn, as far as I understand him (never read the old EU books and barely watched his stint in Rebels) is that he's a tactical genius. Why pass up the advantages the Nightsisters provide? Especially with depleted resources.

I agree the whole thing with tracking Ashoka in the debris field when they can't locate Ezra is silly.

Yeah, and I don't blame him for utilizing the Nightsisters, and I'm sure the idea is to bring back the zombie army one episode, but so far, Thrawn has shown little 'genius', and appears to be more basic.

But you're right, in the books and shows, he is a tactical genius, and so I hope we are able to see more of that as the show progresses.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Maybe, but he appeared to dominate Thrawn's thoughts in the SW Rebels

Wasn't he tasked with shutting down the Lothal Rebel Cell? So he was doing his duty then. 9/10 years in exile it seems logical that his priorities have since changed. We don't know anything yet about what happened to Thrawn/Ezra during exile, nor what their goals are at this point. Obviously they want to go home, but beyond that we don't know much of anything.

 

[Eco]

Wasn't he tasked with shutting down the Lothal Rebel Cell? So he was doing his duty then. 9/10 years in exile it seems logical that his priorities have since changed. We don't know anything yet about what happened to Thrawn/Ezra during exile, nor what their goals are at this point. Obviously they want to go home, but beyond that we don't know much of anything.

100%.

But here is my logic. If they Nightsister can tell that Ahoska has jumped into a whale's mouth to travel to them, as well as be able to locate her ship with surrounded by debris, then I could only logically assume that either A.) The Nightsisters are hiding information from Thrawn or B.)Asoka, Ezra, Sabine won't threaten Thrawn's life, otherwise they'd be able to see as such which would have surely altered Thrawn's focus to eliminate them.

Just some things I have been thinking about since Tuesday night.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

100%.

But here is my logic. If they Nightsister can tell that Ahoska has jumped into a whale's mouth to travel to them, as well as be able to locate her ship with surrounded by debris, then I could only logically assume that either A.) The Nightsisters are hiding information from Thrawn or B.)Asoka, Ezra, Sabine won't threaten Thrawn's life, otherwise they'd be able to see as such which would have surely altered Thrawn's focus to eliminate them.

Just some things I have been thinking about since Tuesday night.

To me it was implied that the Nightsisters only managed to pinpoint Ahsoka's location since she reached out with the force to contact Sabine. The nightsisters use a form of the force for their powers. Ezra during exile would have had no reason to reach out with the force. I mean maybe he did back in early days of exile trying to contact main galaxy, but likely with no training or ability in regards to that he failed to make any contact so he likely wouldn't have continued to do so for a decade. Or he intentionally hasn't been reaching out with the force or even using the force in order to remain in hiding.

My biggest logical leap that I don't like is that Ezra happened to be camping out just like right close to enemy base camp. I think they tried to solve that with the Thrawn line to Sabine where he says "well give you our latest Intel on his whereabouts" kinda hinting they set Sabine in the correct direction. The real reason is just the reality of a TV show that Sabine taking days to find Ezra doesn't play well on TV (boring) nor does it fit the series timeline.

 

[Sad People]

Maybe, but he appeared to dominate Thrawn's thoughts in the SW Rebels

I just don’t think he views Ezra a lone jedi in exile as a threat to him returning to our galaxy. Thrawn even said they have intel of where he could be and didn’t do anything about it. To me it just doesn’t seem like he cares about him or feels threatened from Ezra based on what we know.

 

[HanSolo]

Maybe, but he appeared to dominate Thrawn's thoughts in the SW Rebels


Yeah, and I don't blame him for utilizing the Nightsisters, and I'm sure the idea is to bring back the zombie army one episode, but so far, Thrawn has shown little 'genius', and appears to be more basic.

But you're right, in the books and shows, he is a tactical genius, and so I hope we are able to see more of that as the show progresses.

I think they're showing elements of that though. I think within the context of his current situation he's limited in what he can do and they're very deliberately showing him being conservative with his resources. He doesn't have access to a full blown fleet. He has one battalion, a command ship, and some fighter spacecraft. It shouldn't be much of a problem when the enemy is 2 and a half Jedi and a Droid, but Thrawn appears to know better than to underestimate the Jedi. So from my view I've appreciated his tactician work so far.

And I really think they're setting up for, maybe Thrawn doesn't win per se, but the heroes are going to ultimately lose in the finale. The dead giveaway is Ezra on two occasions being starry eyed about going home. Seems pretty obvious they're setting up for a disappointing result. So I would expect that with Thrawn being such a big deal, he will be a key factor in the heroes' loss. We'll see how it plays out but that's the vibe I get.

 

[Hivemind]

Thrawn not viewing Ezra as a threat would be, well, dumb.

Ezra is the very reason Thrawn is stranded there in the first place. Thrawn knows the power of the Jedi, and fought alongside them in the Clone Wars. Specifically, Ezra defeated Thrawn on multiple occasions as a teenager. Thrawn was defeated on Lothal and Atollan because of the ability of Ezra and his allies to utilize the force to convene with natural allies against Thrawn (the Purgill, the Bendu). Leaving Ezra out there to do the same thing *again* to him would be beyond stupid.

 

[Sad People]

An exlied Ezra with nothing and no one to help him ≠ An Ezra with phoenix squadron and military power to back him up.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I think they're showing elements of that though. I think within the context of his current situation he's limited in what he can do and they're very deliberately showing him being conservative with his resources. He doesn't have access to a full blown fleet. He has one battalion, a command ship, and some fighter spacecraft. It shouldn't be much of a problem when the enemy is 2 and a half Jedi and a Droid, but Thrawn appears to know better than to underestimate the Jedi. So from my view I've appreciated his tactician work so far.

And I really think they're setting up for, maybe Thrawn doesn't win per se, but the heroes are going to ultimately lose in the finale. The dead giveaway is Ezra on two occasions being starry eyed about going home. Seems pretty obvious they're setting up for a disappointing result. So I would expect that with Thrawn being such a big deal, he will be a key factor in the heroes' loss. We'll see how it plays out but that's the vibe I get.

It wouldn't surprise me if it ends on a cliffhanger with Ahsoka, Sabine, Ezra trapped on Peridea and Thrawn on his way back to main galaxy. Setting up the movie Filoni wants to do with Thrawn coming back and starting to establish himself. Likely starting with attacks on outposts like Tatooine (Boba Fett), Mandalorian controlled space (Din Djarin, Bo Katan), then into Republic space (Hera, Canceled Rangers of the New Republic). Just as all seems lost here comes Ezra, Ahsoka, and Sabine from the other galaxy to save the day.

But idk maybe I'm way off base who knows.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

It wouldn't surprise me if it ends on a cliffhanger with Ahsoka, Sabine, Ezra trapped on Peridea and Thrawn on his way back to main galaxy. Setting up the movie Filoni wants to do with Thrawn coming back and starting to establish himself. Likely starting with attacks on outposts like Tatooine (Boba Fett), Mandalorian controlled space (Din Djarin, Bo Katan), then into Republic space (Hera, Canceled Rangers of the New Republic). Just as all seems lost here comes Ezra, Ahsoka, and Sabine from the other galaxy to save the day.

But idk maybe I'm way off base who knows.

I think you are pretty close to the mark.

 

[Sad People]

It wouldn't surprise me if it ends on a cliffhanger with Ahsoka, Sabine, Ezra trapped on Peridea and Thrawn on his way back to main galaxy. Setting up the movie Filoni wants to do with Thrawn coming back and starting to establish himself. Likely starting with attacks on outposts like Tatooine (Boba Fett), Mandalorian controlled space (Din Djarin, Bo Katan), then into Republic space (Hera, Canceled Rangers of the New Republic). Just as all seems lost here comes Ezra, Ahsoka, and Sabine from the other galaxy to save the day.

But idk maybe I'm way off base who knows.

This is kinda my theory as well. I didnt get as far as where Thrawn attacks but do think S3 of Mando was setting up his movie to where we have a united Mandalore being the main forces to help fight off Thrawns attack.

I dont and im sure a lot of other people dont think youre off base at all.

 

[Tawnos]

Having watched Rebels and read some of the Thrawn books, I always come away feeling like 75% of Thrawn's "tactical genius" comes from identifying what truly matters and coming up with a plan that allows him to accomplish the true goal. Sometimes that goal is obvious to all, other times it's only obvious to him (which is why that one Imperial agent in the books thought he was a traitor until he realized that he wasn't at all).

Thrawn showed that same thing in this show. His goal was to load up his cargo and GTFO. He successfully took off the board anyone who might even slightly get in the way of that, including the Baylan/Shin pair. Ahsoka was already pointed in that direction and he kept her there. At least, so he believes at the end of the episode. As has been pointed out, Force users are a little tough to predict for anyone, including him, so it might still turn against him.

Interestingly enough, Ahsoka herself shows a bit of the same trait in her re-match with Baylan. She honestly doesn't care about beating him, because that's not what's important.

 

[Hivemind]

An exlied Ezra with nothing and no one to help him ≠ An Ezra with phoenix squadron and military power to back him up.

If you think Phoenix Squadron and the rebels are what caused Ezra to be able to beat Thrawn, you're being dishonest with yourself. Thrawn was defeated by the things he didn't expect, by the connections between Ezra and the Purgills (or between Kanaan and the Bendu). If you're honestly suggesting that Thrawn wouldn't view Ezra as a threat after those defeats you either have a very low opinion of Thrawn's intelligence or you're just trying to apologize for clunky writing.

 

[Sad People]

If you think Phoenix Squadron and the rebels are what caused Ezra to be able to beat Thrawn, you're being dishonest with yourself. Thrawn was defeated by the things he didn't expect, by the connections between Ezra and the Purgills (or between Kanaan and the Bendu). If you're honestly suggesting that Thrawn wouldn't view Ezra as a threat after those defeats you either have a very low opinion of Thrawn's intelligence or you're just trying to apologize for clunky writing.

I mean i literally have the television show to show that he didnt view Ezra as a real threat.