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This show moves way too fast. They don't even think about slowing things down and contemplating what is going on. The whole story with Pike and Tyler was hard to follow because of how frenetic it was. The Burnham/Spock storyline was pretty good though, and the reveal at the end had me intrigued.
The show moves either too quickly or too slowly. Both were on display last night. As SJSharksfan39 said, the parts with Pike and Tyler were too fast and were hard to follow. Conversely, the parts with Burnham and Spock were too slow and almost put me to sleep.
Also, after six full episodes of building toward this moment, it just ends up that Spock has been safely on Vulcan this entire time? What a huge letdown and dropping of the ball by the writers. One of the few intriguing things about the season was the thought of the Discovery being one step behind Spock, who is on some kind of mission to save the universe. Instead, it turns out that he's unable to function at even a basic level and needs to be taken care of at home by his mommy. Honestly, is there a worse, more disrespectful way to treat perhaps the most famous and beloved of all characters in the Trek franchise?
It's about time that they involved her, but that fact makes me doubt that we'll learn much about her now. I get the feeling that the writers are simply using her as a tool to move the plot forward and, once that's done, she'll go back to being a background character. Maybe I'm being cynical, but they did that to that helmswoman that we haven't really seen since that away mission that she was brought along for (and not even used on) five episodes ago. The writers made up a backstory for her on the spot to suit that episode and then forgot her. I think that, if the writers have greater plans for Airiam than that, they would've developed her before now in order to set this moment up (and make us care a little about what might be happening to her). I could be wrong, but that seems like Writing 101 to me.
The show moves either too quickly or too slowly. Both were on display last night. As SJSharksfan39 said, the parts with Pike and Tyler were too fast and were hard to follow. Conversely, the parts with Burnham and Spock were too slow and almost put me to sleep.
Also, after six full episodes of building toward this moment, it just ends up that Spock has been safely on Vulcan this entire time? What a huge letdown and dropping of the ball by the writers. One of the few intriguing things about the season was the thought of the Discovery being one step behind Spock, who is on some kind of mission to save the universe. Instead, it turns out that he's unable to function at even a basic level and needs to be taken care of by his mommy. Honestly, is there a worse, more disrespectful way to treat perhaps the most famous and beloved of all characters in the Trek franchise?
To answer the question at the end of your spoiler, yes, there is:
To have this venerable, iconic character need to be revived and rebuilt into what we expect him to be by the series' over-the-top mary sue savior. Because not only is he broken, but he owes his entire being as we know him to Space Jesus Burnham. Thereby stripping away both the respect he is owed, but also agency over his own characterization. And oh yeah, now they're saying he has/had some kind of Space Dyslexia (spacelexia?) learning disability to make him more inspirationally disadvantaged than just using his mixed heritage as an unsubtle metaphor for that purpose.
It's right up there with what they're doing to Sarek and Amanda.
Also why the hell is eeeevil Georgiou helping Burnham for seemingly altruistic reasons (and I'm inclined to take her comments at face value since she's been fairly up front about her machinations the whole time we've known her)? Burnham magically made her grow a conscience and empathy?
I guess of course she did.
EDIT: and there we go with the Airiam bit. I'm just hitting the end of the episode.
I would hope that it pays off in a cool way, but I have my suspicions that
When whatever that was that changed the probe and got into her enacts its plan, it'll take her over and use her as a puppet to its own ends, forcing Burnham to kill her and feel super bad about it even though we still haven't really formed any sort of connection to her.
Also the revelation at the end between Georgiou and the other Section 31 captain is dumb. It's more of that "small universe" crap that unnecessarily makes everything need to be connected even though that just breaks suspension of disbelief by turning the whole world they're building into a tangled web of contrivances, coincidences, and awkward interconnectivity.
As for the Talos IV mention, it's neat but it also becomes something of a contrivance too. The Cage/The Menagerie never give any indication that Spock or anyone else knows much of anything at all about Talos. It's the events of The Cage that creates General Order 7 (I had to look that up ) banning all contact with the planet. But Burnham and Spock are going to go traipsing off to there because... somehow the Talosians illusion powers are going to play in to fixing him or having something to do with the Red Angel because fanservice reasons?
If they want to tie this whole Red Angel thing into a future Trek easter egg, pick something with less baggage. Hell, Jussi's continual comment about involving the Iconians makes more sense simply because it was a near throw-away part of one TNG episode plot and could use the backstory. Talos doesn't require that.
EDIT: fun fact, in looking up what the name of the order about visiting Talos was, I found out that calling the Prime Directive "General Order One" first happened in, of all things, an episode of the Animated Series from the 70s, though the term existed as the formal name for the Prime Directive in the series production bible circa 1967. Also people have attempted to defend the naming wonkiness by citing that "Prime Directive" isn't spoken on screen in TOS until near the end of season 1 (Return of the Archons), claiming that validates the idea that it may not have existed in its final form until then. I argue that's still silly and pedantic and a lazy excuse for this shonky wording nonsense. It's also a pointless bit of wankery to pretend we need to establish within Discovery some sort of deliniation between "General Order One" and "The Prime Directive" as primary names. Not every little thing needs a full blown explanation. Because when you get obssessed with that, you end up doing things like making Solo (the Star Wars one, not the action movie with Mario Van Peebles from the 90s )
To answer the question at the end of your spoiler, yes, there is:
To have this venerable, iconic character need to be revived and rebuilt into what we expect him to be by the series' over-the-top mary sue savior. Because not only is he broken, but he owes his entire being as we know him to Space Jesus Burnham. Thereby stripping away both the respect he is owed, but also agency over his own characterization. And oh yeah, now they're saying he has/had some kind of Space Dyslexia (spacelexia?) learning disability to make him more inspirationally disadvantaged than just using his mixed heritage as an unsubtle metaphor for that purpose.
It's right up there with what they're doing to Sarek and Amanda.
When whatever that was that changed the probe and got into her enacts its plan, it'll take her over and use her as a puppet to its own ends, forcing Burnham to kill her and feel super bad about it even though we still haven't really formed any sort of connection to her.
At this point, if she gets an important moment in a scene, especially a character development moment in which we learn something about her backstory or personality, you can bet that she's moments from getting killed off.
And to the second, spoilered comment: Yeah, I agree.
The funny thing is that I would've been fine with shallow character'd background people if they didn't draw attention to them. TNG had a horde of faceless, unimportant navigator characters to fill the chair once Wesley was gone. Or Voyager even had Lt. Ayala as a named regular background filler guy who didn't have or need much characterization to be "that guy who staffs a station when the primary character is doing something else." The two guys at the back of the bridge on Discovery (I'm not even sure what their stations are. One I think is communications, the other is some kind of science station, but I don't know how that differentiates from Burnham, Saru, and Airiam) are good examples of this. But it was reckless to make a character that stands out and looks as intriguing as Airiam and have her be little more than a walking plot device or scene dressing to this point.
I said WTF at the shameless fan service they were engaging in by showing clips from The Cage.
The Talosians have been reduced to a method of unlocking an exposition dump from Spock and nothing else. Spock is now an emotionally frail person who has never managed to get over Burnham being mean to him and has devoted himself to logic out of spite. f*** right off with that shit Discovery.
The stuff with Culber doesn't really work because this "different" Culber they are showing us has no one to contrast with since he was barely in season 1, was not developed at all, and was mostly an empty uniform and tool for exploring Stamets' character than anything.
On the bright side, Anson Mount is carrying this season and has been fantastic as Pike.
What irked me was the "Previously on Star Trek" card at the start of it. It seems rather shameless to me to link your incarnation with the classic one like that, as if it's just been one, long, 50-year-old series.
Wow, there's a surprising amount of hate for Discovery in this thread (albeit by the same 5 or so posters). Last night's episode was excellent and I loved how they tied it into The Cage with the "previously on" being clips from The Cage. I think it's crazy if you didn't like last night's episode.
It added even more depth to Pike's character and gave Spock more of a relationship with the Talosians, making his actions in The Menagerie make more sense. This is how fan-service should be done, deepening our appreciation for the original episodes.
Wow, there's a surprising amount of hate for Discovery in this thread (albeit by the same 5 or so posters). Last night's episode was excellent and I loved how they tied it into The Cage with the "previously on" being clips from The Cage. I think it's crazy if you didn't like last night's episode.
It added even more depth to Pike's character and gave Spock more of a relationship with the Talosians, making his actions in The Menagerie make more sense. This is how fan-service should be done, deepening our appreciation for the original episodes.
It didn't help that STD said it was going to be it's own thing, however, they immediately went straight in to TOS territory the second they realize all of their shit ideas and retconning in S1 are shit.
Man that episode was a freaking mess. Like from a writing perspective it was horrifically bad
In the TOS the Talosians were hurt by harsh emotions, now they're lapping it up like a crack addict. Stupid
In the original episode Vina indicated that the Talosians put her back together after the crash, but didn't know what human's should look like, thus the deformities. In this one its now, well this is how I looked after the accident. Stupid. So did they actually watch the Menagerie or yell at a editor "WE NEED FAN SERVICE, JUST CUT TOGETHER SOME CLIPS WE DON'T CARE, FAN SERVICE"
The whole Paul Stamets back and forth last nigh. boring and stupid and just who cares
The whole Spock is mad at Michael because she said mean things to him so he turned to logic. Stupid
Georgio is now the cool hero with her cup of coffee and her I'm too busy. Stupid
The Red Angel is a human she . . . here comes Mary Sue from the future to save us all and she made the advanced tech suit out of slurpee straws and radio shack 50 in one science lab kids because she's so smart
So are the bad guys the borg because it seems like droid girl has been assimilated, maybe they're going to klingon the borg, no cubes for you, here are your flying penis'es.
They had to cram about 10 story lines into this episode, made it a confusing mess with no moments to breath, everytime Michael does a sad face or horrified face I laugh at how bad it is.
I'm starting to watch this show for the unintended humor.
BTW was anyone else confused when the Netflix's logo came up?
Thank god for Anson Mount, he's too good for this show.
It didn't help that STD said it was going to be it's own thing, however, they immediately went straight in to TOS territory the second they realize all of their **** ideas and retconning in S1 are ****.
So really they can't win. Either they are too different or they are sticking to existing canon too closely. Good old Star Trek fans... always have their own unique idea of what is the best version of Star Trek.
Man that episode was a freaking mess. Like from a writing perspective it was horrifically bad
In the TOS the Talosians were hurt by harsh emotions, now they're lapping it up like a crack addict. Stupid
In the original episode Vina indicated that the Talosians put her back together after the crash, but didn't know what human's should look like, thus the deformities. In this one its now, well this is how I looked after the accident. Stupid. So did they actually watch the Menagerie or yell at a editor "WE NEED FAN SERVICE, JUST CUT TOGETHER SOME CLIPS WE DON'T CARE, FAN SERVICE"
The whole Paul Stamets back and forth last nigh. boring and stupid and just who cares
The whole Spock is mad at Michael because she said mean things to him so he turned to logic. Stupid
Georgio is now the cool hero with her cup of coffee and her I'm too busy. Stupid
The Red Angel is a human she . . . here comes Mary Sue from the future to save us all and she made the advanced tech suit out of slurpee straws and radio shack 50 in one science lab kids because she's so smart
So are the bad guys the borg because it seems like droid girl has been assimilated, maybe they're going to klingon the borg, no cubes for you, here are your flying penis'es.
They had to cram about 10 story lines into this episode, made it a confusing mess with no moments to breath, everytime Michael does a sad face or horrified face I laugh at how bad it is.
I'm starting to watch this show for the unintended humor.
BTW was anyone else confused when the Netflix's logo came up?
Thank god for Anson Mount, he's too good for this show.
In TOS, harsh anger prevented the Talosians from reading minds. But the whole purpose they wanted Pike there was to have an unending source of new minds and imaginations to experience. Memories were like crack to the Talosians in The Cage.
Vina in this episode does say that the Talosians put her together this way.
10 storylines in this episode? Please list all of the storylines because I definitely don't count 10. I count 2 plots. If anything, this episode has the most breathing room of any episode of Discovery to date.
The Paul Stamets thing you're mad about: Would you rather Culber came back just as he was? I personally prefer consequences.
So really they can't win. Either they are too different or they are sticking to existing canon too closely. Good old Star Trek fans... always have their own unique idea of what is the best version of Star Trek.
Enterprise was the forebearer to what Discovery is doing, albeit in a much smaller scale. And mostly it didn't start until the back half of its run. But it did things like introduce the Borg while dancing around having to identify them as the borg to preserve the fact that TNG is the canonical first interaction between the Federation and the collective. They stuck in some Ferangi bits that shouldn't make sense at that point. They tangentially involved the Romulan Empire at a time where it didn't make sense, but in a way that gave them a plausible deniability sort of excuse ("whoa, whoa whoa, nobody actually meets the Romulans and they're never referred to by name or by anything else concretely placing them there so that way starfleet can be relatively unaware of them until the war between the two happens some time in the period between Enterprise and TOS")
This sort of thing is always going to be a problem with prequels to existing material in any franchise, but if Enterprise was somewhat limited/careful about it, Discovery seems content to just have a "we'll do what ever we want and if it mucks up the timeline, who cares? We can fix it down the road at some point." attitude.
In TOS, harsh anger prevented the Talosians from reading minds. But the whole purpose they wanted Pike there was to have an unending source of new minds and imaginations to experience. Memories were like crack to the Talosians in The Cage.
Vina in this episode does say that the Talosians put her together this way.
10 storylines in this episode? Please list all of the storylines because I definitely don't count 10. I count 2 plots. If anything, this episode has the most breathing room of any episode of Discovery to date.
The Paul Stamets thing you're mad about: Would you rather Culber came back just as he was? I personally prefer consequences.
I said this earlier in the thread, but what was Culber like before? That character was barely developed before this season so they are just telling us he's different with nothing to actually compare him with. This show has been terrible for applied attributes, which is a hallmark of bad writing and character development and typical of shallow action franchises that just want to rush through development to get to the next explosion.
Man that episode was a freaking mess. Like from a writing perspective it was horrifically bad
In the TOS the Talosians were hurt by harsh emotions, now they're lapping it up like a crack addict. Stupid
In the original episode Vina indicated that the Talosians put her back together after the crash, but didn't know what human's should look like, thus the deformities. In this one its now, well this is how I looked after the accident. Stupid. So did they actually watch the Menagerie or yell at a editor "WE NEED FAN SERVICE, JUST CUT TOGETHER SOME CLIPS WE DON'T CARE, FAN SERVICE"
The whole Paul Stamets back and forth last nigh. boring and stupid and just who cares
The whole Spock is mad at Michael because she said mean things to him so he turned to logic. Stupid
Georgio is now the cool hero with her cup of coffee and her I'm too busy. Stupid
The Red Angel is a human she . . . here comes Mary Sue from the future to save us all and she made the advanced tech suit out of slurpee straws and radio shack 50 in one science lab kids because she's so smart
So are the bad guys the borg because it seems like droid girl has been assimilated, maybe they're going to klingon the borg, no cubes for you, here are your flying penis'es.
They had to cram about 10 story lines into this episode, made it a confusing mess with no moments to breath, everytime Michael does a sad face or horrified face I laugh at how bad it is.
I'm starting to watch this show for the unintended humor.
BTW was anyone else confused when the Netflix's logo came up?
Thank god for Anson Mount, he's too good for this show.
I am not in love with Discovery it's been fairly average however recently I starting watching Enterprise on Netflix, almost done with Season 1 and am really enjoying it. Never seen a Star Trek series other than Discovery so I never understood the hype but Enterprise makes me see why this series is so popular. T'Pol is a great character and her outfits on the show on the show are great!
Can they just shoot the spore drive, mycellial network BS into the sun? My eyes glaze over everytime they start talking about the damn Mycellial network. Also I though that earlier in the season that fungi thing that attached itself to Tilly told them that them using the spore drive to make jumps was destroying the habitat of her species, but Stamets still keeps using it and there has been no mention of its side-effects on that species, what? Unless I missed they should atleast be having arguments about the consequences of them destroying the environment of a sentient species even if they still end up using the spore drive in dire circumstances.
I am not in love with Discovery it's been fairly average however recently I starting watching Enterprise on Netflix, almost done with Season 1 and am really enjoying it. Never seen a Star Trek series other than Discovery so I never understood the hype but Enterprise makes me see why this series is so popular. T'Pol is a great character and her outfits on the show on the show are great!
Wow, there's a surprising amount of hate for Discovery in this thread (albeit by the same 5 or so posters). Last night's episode was excellent and I loved how they tied it into The Cage with the "previously on" being clips from The Cage. I think it's crazy if you didn't like last night's episode.
It added even more depth to Pike's character and gave Spock more of a relationship with the Talosians, making his actions in The Menagerie make more sense. This is how fan-service should be done, deepening our appreciation for the original episodes.
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) banning all contact with the planet. But Burnham and Spock are going to go traipsing off to there because... somehow the Talosians illusion powers are going to play in to fixing him or having something to do with the Red Angel because fanservice reasons?
