Pre-Game Talk: Stanley Cup Final: New York Rangers vs. Los Angeles Kings

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Subban was coming off a series where he torched the Bruins. Wasn't the same factor against the Rangers.

FWIW, that Bruins defense is eerily similar to the Hawks defense.

 

[Fitzy]

The LA forward groups are much better and stronger than Montreal's. NYR was able to attack Subban because Vanek, Gionta, Plekanec, and the rest were essentially nonfactors. Undersized players.

NYR won't be able to key in on Doughty when they have a physical specimen like Kopitar on the ice. They'll have to play their anti-Pittsburgh strategy. If Letang didn't butcher us, hopefully Doughty won't.

 

[Miamipuck]

Subban was coming off a series where he torched the Bruins. Wasn't the same factor against the Rangers.

He wasn't any factor against the Rangers.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

The LA forward groups are much better and stronger than Montreal's. NYR was able to attack Subban because Vanek, Gionta, Plekanec, and the rest were essentially nonfactors. Undersized players.

NYR won't be able to key in on Doughty when they have a physical specimen like Kopitar on the ice. They'll have to play their anti-Pittsburgh strategy. If Letang didn't butcher us, hopefully Doughty won't.

Please, define "better". Better is a relative term. More talented? More balanced? Both?

I've heard that LA is better and deeper than any other team in the league. Yet they play 2 of their forwards under 6 minutes a game in big game situations.

I've heard that LA is more talented than the Canadiens offense, although the narrative before our series that was given about the Canadiens offense was how its speed was unmatched by any of the 4 teams remaining - including that of the Kings.

My point is, the narrative changes to fit the agenda of the reporters. Did you watch all 7 games of this Hawks Kings series? If you did, did you watch it without the mainstream blinders that everyone want you to eat? Those defenses were absolutely nothing special, yet a lot of reporters have the edge on defense given to them?!?! LA's offense scored on over 31% of their powerplays... but their offense is apparently defining?!?! LA's goalie let in 4+ goals in the last 3 games of the series... but their goalie is as dominant as ours?!?!?!

Please.

 

[Miamipuck]

The LA forward groups are much better and stronger than Montreal's. NYR was able to attack Subban because Vanek, Gionta, Plekanec, and the rest were essentially nonfactors. Undersized players.

NYR won't be able to key in on Doughty when they have a physical specimen like Kopitar on the ice. They'll have to play their anti-Pittsburgh strategy. If Letang didn't butcher us, hopefully Doughty won't.

Subban was kept in check by the Rangers speed, especially Kreider after game one. They had Subban on the ice a lot against Kreider. Also Hagelin did similar things speed wise. My point is it was the Rangers speedy wingers more than anyone that made Subban a non event.

Letang is essentially a 4th forward, mostly offense. Doughty isn't really comparable to him. Doughty is way better all around.

As entertaining as the Hawks/Kings series was, neither team has the speed on the wings like the Rangers. I don't think Doughty is going to be able to be up ice nearly as much. If he is up ice and successful, it means the Kings somehow neutralized the Rangers speed and it will be short short series.

 

[Fitzy]

Well you guys all know that I have a fondness for larger, stronger, more cynical hockey players. The way I learned to play the game. I'd love to have Clifford on this team.

But what I'm referring to is the variety. They have a player for every situation. The big, fast, playmaking center in Kopitar. Great center depth in Richards, Carter, and Stoll. Carter is the quintessential PP sniper. Gaborik is the breakaway threat. They have young creative players who don't know any better like Toffoli. Big guys like King who will overpower undersized defenders like Stralman.

Montreal leaned on Price and Subban all playoffs. Their leading forward scorer was Lars Eller. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

 

[silverfish]

If these playoffs have any constant theme, it's that big-time opposing players have been essentially non-factors against the Rangers.

Giroux, Hartnell, Simmonds - shut down.
Crosby, Letang, Kunitz (LOL, big time player) - shut down. Malkin was a factor in a couple of games, no doubt.
Subban, Vanek, Patches - nothing.
Doughty, Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter, etc... - ___________

The Kings have more solid depth than any other team we have faced. That extra game suspension to John Moore looms large now with Raffy in there. While Diaz may be a more offensively-gifted D-man, missing John Moore on the left of Klein will be a big loss against this Kings team. Ulfie will have to do well to place that pairing in favorable situations. Offensive zone starts after whistles. McD, G, Staal and even Stralman are looking at 25 minute nights on the road.

This team more than any, there is such an importance in playing in their end of the ice, keeping legs moving, and drawing penalties. Play on the PP. Continue to play well at ES.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Subban was kept in check by the Rangers speed, especially Kreider after game one. They had Subban on the ice a lot against Kreider. Also Hagelin did similar things speed wise. My point is it was the Rangers speedy wingers more than anyone that made Subban a non event.

Letang is essentially a 4th forward, mostly offense. Doughty isn't really comparable to him. Doughty is way better all around.

As entertaining as the Hawks/Kings series was, neither team has the speed on the wings like the Rangers. I don't think Doughty is going to be able to be up ice nearly as much. If he is up ice and successful, it means the Kings somehow neutralized the Rangers speed and it will be short short series.

And what about if we neutralized their powerplay, which in my estimation is much more of an obtainable and doable goal than suppressing a player's speed.

They have 2 options:

1) Stack up the neutral zone, like they usually do, and force a dump and chase game... which will benefit the Rangers because they'll dump pucks in and retrieve them because of their speed.
2) Keep their defenders farther back to limit odd man rushes and get to dumped in pucks faster, which will open up the center of the ice for the Rangers to enter the zone with their transition game... again another strength of the Rangers.

We are not a good match up for this team. Especially not a good match up for them when they've played the most games possible for any team in the playoffs. They'll be playing chase for the majority of the time. Have fun with that.

 

[Thirty One]

My series preview:

http://rangersunlimited.com/2014/06/03/series-preview-twenty-years-later-rangers-back-in-cup-finals/

 

[Fitzy]

I think the long and short of it is that Lundqvist has to be better than Quick. Significantly. We're going to be outshot. Thankfully Henrik tends to do better in games when he's being peppered. Rangers have to be opportunistic and clinical with their opportunities. No more of MSL shanking wide open one timers. No more Staal hitting the glass with wide open shots in the slot.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

If these playoffs have any constant theme, it's that big-time opposing players have been essentially non-factors against the Rangers.

Giroux, Hartnell, Simmonds - shut down.
Crosby, Letang, Kunitz (LOL, big time player) - shut down. Malkin was a factor in a couple of games, no doubt.
Subban, Vanek, Patches - nothing.
Doughty, Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter, etc... - ___________

The Kings have more solid depth than any other team we have faced. That extra game suspension to John Moore looms large now with Raffy in there. While Diaz may be a more offensively-gifted D-man, missing John Moore on the left of Klein will be a big loss against this Kings team. Ulfie will have to do well to place that pairing in favorable situations. Offensive zone starts after whistles. McD, G, Staal and even Stralman are looking at 25 minute nights on the road.

This team more than any, there is such an importance in playing in their end of the ice, keeping legs moving, and drawing penalties. Play on the PP. Continue to play well at ES.

I actually think that Diaz is not only the superior offensive player to J. Moore but also the superior defensive player. His speed allows him to not only be aggressive on the offensive but correct more mistakes than Moore would be able to correct if he made them.

Raffy will likely be our 4th defenseman next year, partnered with Staal. I don't think Moore will ever be a top 4 defenseman. I'm more comfortable with Raphael than Moore, hands down.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Well you guys all know that I have a fondness for larger, stronger, more cynical hockey players. The way I learned to play the game. I'd love to have Clifford on this team.

But what I'm referring to is the variety. They have a player for every situation. The big, fast, playmaking center in Kopitar. Great center depth in Richards, Carter, and Stoll. Carter is the quintessential PP sniper. Gaborik is the breakaway threat. They have young creative players who don't know any better like Toffoli. Big guys like King who will overpower undersized defenders like Stralman.

Montreal leaned on Price and Subban all playoffs. Their leading forward scorer was Lars Eller. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

Their younger players don't worry me. This Rangers team still knows how to play an absolutely suffocating type of defense if need be. If things get too open, I can see AV resorting to that in order to frustrate LA's offense.

LA has not played a team like us yet in the playoffs. We have not played a team like LA either. I think it comes down to what team can make the right adjustments in the fastest time. This is where the coaching battle begins.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

My series preview:

http://rangersunlimited.com/2014/06/03/series-preview-twenty-years-later-rangers-back-in-cup-finals/

Oh boy.

I'm going to trust the same instincts and reasoning that led me to believe that the Rangers would be here before the post season started.

I'm sticking with my gut and my logic. I think 21 games is an absolute death sentence. There's a reason no team has won the cup having played more than 18 games, previously. We have played 20 games, 1 less game, 1 less OT game (it was a 2OT game at that, too), and have had 3 extra days of rest heading into this series.

Normally, I'd agree with the 50/50 narrative if this series were to have been the first of the playoffs for both teams. I really think that this series should be harder for them to win than it will be for us.

There's also something to be said about teams coming off emotional victories. Habs over the Bruins. Kings players referred to this last series that they played as "the most emotional of their lives". There will be a drop off. The Rangers are mentally preparing for this team for days before they can even comprehend the Rangers as an opponent.

I'm sticking with Rangers.

 

[silverfish]

I actually think that Diaz is not only the superior offensive player to J. Moore but also the superior defensive player. His speed allows him to not only be aggressive on the offensive but correct more mistakes than Moore would be able to correct if he made them.

Raffy will likely be our 4th defenseman next year, partnered with Staal. I don't think Moore will ever be a top 4 defenseman. I'm more comfortable with Raphael than Moore, hands down.

Diaz can't even sniff the lineup when the top-6 D are healthy. The only... ONLY reason Diaz MIGHT be a top-4 guy for us next year is because he's a RHD, not because he's better than Moore. I disagree with that sentiment. Not to mention Raph is getting to the wrong side of his 20s fast, and Moore is still only 24.

If Stralman isn't re-signed, I forsee Klein making the jump to top-4. Or Sather/Gorton/Messier ( ) getting creative to fill in the spot vacated.

 

[TheTakedown]

Their younger players don't worry me. This Rangers team still knows how to play an absolutely suffocating type of defense if need be. If things get too open, I can see AV resorting to that in order to frustrate LA's offense.

LA has not played a team like us yet in the playoffs. We have not played a team like LA either. I think it comes down to what team can make the right adjustments in the fastest time. This is where the coaching battle begins.

I think AV is the superior coach... he's familiar with the west, he has a handle on this team, he knows Sutter's coaching schemes very well, and to boot we have Carcillo who played for them a mere 5-6 months ago, so he is somewhat familiar with their team as well, which is a godsend for AV on top of everything AV already knows.

Diaz can't even sniff the lineup when the top-6 D are healthy. The only... ONLY reason Diaz MIGHT be a top-4 guy for us next year is because he's a RHD, not because he's better than Moore. I disagree with that sentiment. Not to mention Raph is getting to the wrong side of his 20s fast, and Moore is still only 24.

If Stralman isn't re-signed, I forsee Klein making the jump to top-4. Or Sather/Gorton/Messier ( ) getting creative to fill in the spot vacated.

The issue is that Moore is quite frankly one of the dumbest defenseman i've watch considering all his hype... he's got a great set of wheels, but he has a very low hockey IQ.

As for Diaz, the only reason why he is not in the lineup on a regular basis is because the right side is somewhat cemented. Girardi-Stralman-Klein... The drop off from Klein to Diaz is there for the right side, so it makes sense not to put Diaz in at this point, and on top of that why would you continually play a defenseman on his offside? Well, that explains why Moore is in.

 

[Miamipuck]

And what about if we neutralized their powerplay, which in my estimation is much more of an obtainable and doable goal than suppressing a player's speed.

They have 2 options:

1) Stack up the neutral zone, like they usually do, and force a dump and chase game... which will benefit the Rangers because they'll dump pucks in and retrieve them because of their speed.
2) Keep their defenders farther back to limit odd man rushes and get to dumped in pucks faster, which will open up the center of the ice for the Rangers to enter the zone with their transition game... again another strength of the Rangers.

We are not a good match up for this team. Especially not a good match up for them when they've played the most games possible for any team in the playoffs. They'll be playing chase for the majority of the time. Have fun with that.

I posted the special teams #'s for the regular season. The Rangers faced 3 opponents that were all in the top 10 of one or both specialty teams units. The Rangers came out on top of all those battles except for 1 series, Philly. It's not out of the realm for them to stop LA's power play. They already neutralized the #1 PP in the league.

Again, LA isn't going to be chasing all game long. They're the best puck possession team in the NHL. Not too mention they will have a huge advantage in the faceoff circle. Obviously, those 2 go hand in hand.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Diaz can't even sniff the lineup when the top-6 D are healthy. The only... ONLY reason Diaz MIGHT be a top-4 guy for us next year is because he's a RHD, not because he's better than Moore. I disagree with that sentiment. Not to mention Raph is getting to the wrong side of his 20s fast, and Moore is still only 24.

If Stralman isn't re-signed, I forsee Klein making the jump to top-4. Or Sather/Gorton/Messier ( ) getting creative to fill in the spot vacated.

Raphael was playing 17-22 minutes regularly for Montreal before he got traded to Vancouver.

Those are top 4 minutes...

The only reason he hadn't "sniffed" our top 6 is because AV sticks with the personnel he's used to. Poo was given chance after chance when he didn't deserve to be in the line up. Explain to me how Dorsett managed to overtake Carcillo for the 12th forward when Carcillo was a revelation for this team after Dorsett went down. Dorsett barely had that effect when he was healthy.

Raffy is better, imo.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I posted the special teams #'s for the regular season. The Rangers faced 3 opponents that were all in the top 10 of one or both specialty teams units. The Rangers came out on top of all those battles except for 1 series, Philly. It's not out of the realm for them to stop LA's power play. They already neutralized the #1 PP in the league.

Again, LA isn't going to be chasing all game long. They're the best puck possession team in the NHL. Not too mention they will have a huge advantage in the faceoff circle. Obviously, those 2 go hand in hand.

I tend to believe what my eyes see. What I saw was sloppy passing and possession the last 3 games for the Kings. If that trend continues they'll really be out of their element.

 

[Miamipuck]

I tend to believe what my eyes see. What I saw was sloppy passing and possession the last 3 games for the Kings. If that trend continues they'll really be out of their element.

I saw the same but the stats say otherwise. Chicago is an elite team, it's not like they had a lay up in the WCF, just saying. If I am going to complain about the one way talking heads and Kings fans, I am not going to parallel what I am complaining about.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I saw the same but the stats say otherwise. Chicago is an elite team, it's not like they had a lay up in the WCF, just saying. If I am going to complain about the one way talking heads and Kings fans, I am not going to parallel what I am complaining about.

I'm not discounting the Kings strengths. I am under the firm belief that the amount of games that they have played to go along with the drop off in emotional play from just defeating the defending SC champs will lead to sloppy, careless, and unprepared play from them in the first, if not the first and second games.

That's my prediction. If i'm wrong, I've eaten public crow before. I have no problem doing so. I am confident in my predictions, though.

 

[silverfish]

The issue is that Moore is quite frankly one of the dumbest defenseman i've watch considering all his hype... he's got a great set of wheels, but he has a very low hockey IQ.

As for Diaz, the only reason why he is not in the lineup on a regular basis is because the right side is somewhat cemented. Girardi-Stralman-Klein... The drop off from Klein to Diaz is there for the right side, so it makes sense not to put Diaz in at this point, and on top of that why would you continually play a defenseman on his offside? Well, that explains why Moore is in.

Fair point on the right-side. Disagree with Moore's hockey IQ statement. Sure, he makes mistakes. He is what he is. A 24 year-old third pairing dman. He's still going through some growing pains, that'll happen with a young "project" defensemen. He won't be anything more than a 2nd pairing guy, if he gets there and that's okay because that's what we need. For now, Moore is more important to the Rangers than Diaz.

Raphael was playing 17-22 minutes regularly for Montreal before he got traded to Vancouver.

Those are top 4 minutes...

The only reason he hadn't "sniffed" our top 6 is because AV sticks with the personnel he's used to. Poo was given chance after chance when he didn't deserve to be in the line up. Explain to me how Dorsett managed to overtake Carcillo for the 12th forward when Carcillo was a revelation for this team after Dorsett went down. Dorsett barely had that effect when he was healthy.

Raffy is better, imo.

Agree and disagree at the same time. I think DD remains in the lineup because he is just as effective as a forechecker as Carcillo, though less gifted when it comes to actually putting the puck in the net. I think DD is miles ahead of Carcillo in the neutral and defensive zones, and that's why he stays in the lineup.

The board turned on Dorsett very fast after he returned from his injury. I think he took one dumb penalty, as he and Carcillo are both apt to taking, and the board was done with him. It was very strange. I find DD quite effective. Meanwhile, Carcillo is appealing for his NHL life right now.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Fair point on the right-side. Disagree with Moore's hockey IQ statement. Sure, he makes mistakes. He is what he is. A 24 year-old third pairing dman. He's still going through some growing pains, that'll happen with a young "project" defensemen. He won't be anything more than a 2nd pairing guy, if he gets there and that's okay because that's what we need. For now, Moore is more important to the Rangers than Diaz.



Agree and disagree at the same time. I think DD remains in the lineup because he is just as effective as a forechecker as Carcillo, though less gifted when it comes to actually putting the puck in the net. I think DD is miles ahead of Carcillo in the neutral and defensive zones, and that's why he stays in the lineup.

The board turned on Dorsett very fast after he returned from his injury. I think he took one dumb penalty, as he and Carcillo are both apt to taking, and the board was done with him. It was very strange. I find DD quite effective. Meanwhile, Carcillo is appealing for his NHL life right now.

I turned on Dorsett not only because he often times plays idiotically, but also because he plays the game in a much stupider fashion than Carcillo plays it. Carcillo attacks the net, shoots whenever he can, has made excellent leading passes, forechecks just as well as Dorsett, stays on his skates better, keeps his stick on the ice and disrupts opposing passes more often, and most importantly he uses his head on a much more consistent basis than Dorsett does. In the heat of the moment, if you're being pushed around after you're looking to get physical retribution on someone, you can lose your cool. He should have handled the referee situation better but I don't really remember a time that he took an awful penalty to hurt the team. Dorsett sends bulletin board material to other teams. Spraying kids with flags, headbutting others, spearing people in the groin, saying degrading things...

For Vigneault, a guy who appreciates smarter players... the decision is odd.

 

[nevesis]

BREAKING NEWS:

“@DarrenDreger: NHL reduces Carcillo suspension from 10 games to 6.”

“@PLeonardNYDN: Bettman has reduced Carcillo's suspension to six games so he will be eligible to return in Game 4”

 

[silverfish]

I turned on Dorsett not only because he often times plays idiotically, but also because he plays the game in a much stupider fashion than Carcillo plays it. Carcillo attacks the net, shoots whenever he can, has made excellent leading passes, forechecks just as well as Dorsett, stays on his skates better, keeps his stick on the ice and disrupts opposing passes more often, and most importantly he uses his head on a much more consistent basis than Dorsett does. In the heat of the moment, if you're being pushed around after you're looking to get physical retribution on someone, you can lose your cool. He should have handled the referee situation better but I don't really remember a time that he took an awful penalty to hurt the team. Dorsett sends bulletin board material to other teams. Spraying kids with flags, headbutting others, spearing people in the groin, saying degrading things...

For Vigneault, a guy who appreciates smarter players... the decision is odd.

Call me biased, whatever, I sincerely doubt DD really wanted to give the kid a snowshower there. I think the goal was to spray the Canadiens coming onto the ice, and the kid skated there. Wrong place, wrong time. Dumb on DD, but to judge his character from that, not me, because I don't think he skated there and was like, "I'm gonna snow shower the **** out of this kid". Who would do that?

I think you overrate Carcillo's skills, and underrate Dorsett's. DD was killing penalties before Nash came in and showed he could do that. DD broke his leg killing a penalty.

You defend Carcillo in the heat of the moment, and theneven mention the linesman situation (which I have my own problems with that do not stem from Carcillo, but the linseman himself) and just blow it off by saying "he should have handled it better". If his appeal doesn't get accepted by the league, Carcillo might be out of the NHL. Meanwhile, if the Rangers don't re-sign him, Dorsett will be on to another organization to be a quite effective PKer and fourth-liner.

EDIT - Posted before I saw Carcillo's suspension reduced. Very good news for him and NYR.

 

[LORENZO]

So only 4 games left to take?

Unless we sweep or get swept, he has a chance to play!