Stan Kroenke joins real estate group building NHL/NBA quality arena in San Diego

[madhi19]

Shows how desperate the NHL is for money.

NFL 32 teams
NBA 30 teams
MLB 30 teams

all with big money TV contracts--the NHL thinks expanding everywhere will help that. They are wrong

The NFL relocated three teams recently and collected $1.67 billion in relocation fees at the same time! They made more money than the NHL two expansion teams without having to sell a single expansion team. Since the league make a crap load more than everybody else, they don't want to divide the gigantic pie in more slices anyway. Interestingly considering the NHL has seven teams in Canada and the other three leagues have a combined total of two the NHL actually has room to grow in the US.

 

[Brodie]

Shows how desperate the NHL is for money.

NFL 32 teams
NBA 30 teams
MLB 30 teams

all with big money TV contracts--the NHL thinks expanding everywhere will help that. They are wrong

Yeah, the NHL owners are addicted to quick cash injections and it reads as kind of pathetic

 

[KevFu]

Not to mention that MLB is apparently eyeing expansion to 32.

Just waiting on Oakland and Tampa.

Yeah, the NHL owners are addicted to quick cash injections and it reads as kind of pathetic

NBA is probably expanding soon with Vegas and Seattle being the most talked about locations.

The NFL with no local TV contracts has the least reason to expand.

MLS has been expanding for over a decade, going from 12 to 30 and probably beyond. Leagues like the USFL, XFL and WNBA are talking expansion. The PHF just expanded.

So literally every closed league in the USA with local TV deals just had or is talking about adding teams. But sure, NHL is pathetic for it.

 

[aqib]

Just waiting on Oakland and Tampa.



NBA is probably expanding soon with Vegas and Seattle being the most talked about locations.

The NFL with no local TV contracts has the least reason to expand.

MLS has been expanding for over a decade, going from 12 to 30 and probably beyond. Leagues like the USFL, XFL and WNBA are talking expansion. The PHF just expanded.

So literally every closed league in the USA with local TV deals just had or is talking about adding teams. But sure, NHL is pathetic for it.

With the expansion of gambling the NFL does have reason to expand because it would mean a larger inventory of games to bet on. The regular season can't go beyond 18 games.

Also, there is always the potential for more TV contracts. When you had 3 national networks you were basically locked into an AFC package, an NFC package, and a Monday night package. Then ESPN comes along and you add Sunday night. The NFL Network gets created and you add Thursday night. An All-Europe division will get you a Sunday morning slot to sell. There was talk before the last deal of scrapping the AFC/NFC model as well. That's all before you start thinking about Tuesday and Wednesday night games. I hate having my team's games on Thursday (there is always someone who isn't fully healed and the quality of play sucks) but it makes money so the league sticks with it.

 

[willy702]

With the expansion of gambling the NFL does have reason to expand because it would mean a larger inventory of games to bet on. The regular season can't go beyond 18 games.

Also, there is always the potential for more TV contracts. When you had 3 national networks you were basically locked into an AFC package, an NFC package, and a Monday night package. Then ESPN comes along and you add Sunday night. The NFL Network gets created and you add Thursday night. An All-Europe division will get you a Sunday morning slot to sell. There was talk before the last deal of scrapping the AFC/NFC model as well. That's all before you start thinking about Tuesday and Wednesday night games. I hate having my team's games on Thursday (there is always someone who isn't fully healed and the quality of play sucks) but it makes money so the league sticks with it.

Wait for a few years and you'll see the ugliest of demands...legalize sports betting and we'll consider you eligible for an expansion team. I could totally see that in NFL or MLB, they both know their TV contracts expand when they have more gambling. NBA and NHL are a little less driven by the gambling revenue card.

I could see this being a real thing for the NFL. Hey Texas and Florida, you want teams in San Antonio and Orlando? Get us sports betting and we'll talk. Hey Sacramento, you want an MLB team to replace the A's? We kinda need sports betting to make it work, after all Nashville and Charlotte now have it.

 

[aqib]

Wait for a few years and you'll see the ugliest of demands...legalize sports betting and we'll consider you eligible for an expansion team. I could totally see that in NFL or MLB, they both know their TV contracts expand when they have more gambling. NBA and NHL are a little less driven by the gambling revenue card.

I could see this being a real thing for the NFL. Hey Texas and Florida, you want teams in San Antonio and Orlando? Get us sports betting and we'll talk. Hey Sacramento, you want an MLB team to replace the A's? We kinda need sports betting to make it work, after all Nashville and Charlotte now have it.

Its legal in enough places that it doesn't matter. They just need more games to add to your inventory. You go to 18 games, you add 16 more games to your inventory.

You can't go to more than 18 games realistically. So going to 36 teams gets you another 36 games. Go to 40 and you get 36 more. 2 teams in London, 2 elsewhere in Europe, 1 in Toronto, 1 in Mexico City then 2 more in the US

 

[willy702]

Its legal in enough places that it doesn't matter. They just need more games to add to your inventory. You go to 18 games, you add 16 more games to your inventory.

You can't go to more than 18 games realistically. So going to 36 teams gets you another 36 games. Go to 40 and you get 36 more. 2 teams in London, 2 elsewhere in Europe, 1 in Toronto, 1 in Mexico City then 2 more in the US

I don't see the inventory increase from expansion as being meaningful enough to offset the gobs of money they would be sharing with new owners. The only way they grow inventory is to add more time slots, which they are trying to do. The growth in betting from adding teams but not time slots would be very small. Eventually, I could see them saying hey college football, we love you and all but we need that Saturday evening slot.

And its not legal in enough places that matter when 3 of the top 4 states by population don't have it yet. If they grow the gaming markets they can serve the upside from TV ratings. Of course there will be a lot of pushback from many sides when this eventually happens but its the surest way all sides gain extra revenue.

 

[TheLegend]

I don't see the inventory increase from expansion as being meaningful enough to offset the gobs of money they would be sharing with new owners. The only way they grow inventory is to add more time slots, which they are trying to do. The growth in betting from adding teams but not time slots would be very small. Eventually, I could see them saying hey college football, we love you and all but we need that Saturday evening slot.

And its not legal in enough places that matter when 3 of the top 4 states by population don't have it yet. If they grow the gaming markets they can serve the upside from TV ratings. Of course there will be a lot of pushback from many sides when this eventually happens but its the surest way all sides gain extra revenue.

The most populous state of all of them has three NFL teams already in the largest two metros.

The gaming would be more lucrative to the markets with moderate sized markets where the more revenue streams the better.

 

[willy702]

The most populous state of all of them has three NFL teams already in the largest two metros.

The gaming would be more lucrative to the markets with moderate sized markets where the more revenue streams the better.

That's just not how gambling nor capturing TV viewers works. Population drives all.

 

[TheLegend]

That's just not how gambling nor capturing TV viewers works. Population drives all.

Except the point was about sports betting as a reason in drawing expansion teams. Which is what I presumed @aqib was referring to as unnecessary..

And it's revenue streams that drives the bus. Not population.

The Raiders (and soon the Athletics) are leaving the 13th largest population center in the US for the 29th.

 

[aqib]

Except the point was about sports betting as a reason in drawing expansion teams. Which is what I presumed @aqib was referring to as unnecessary..

And it's revenue streams that drives the bus. Not population.

The Raiders (and soon the Athletics) are leaving the 13th largest population center in the US for the 29th.

That's my point. Particularly with the NFL (which is the most gambling and TV friendly sport). More teams means more games to bet on and more to broadcast. Also the one-game-per-week set up allows teams to draw from a wider region than other sports.

 

[Brodie]

NBA is probably expanding soon with Vegas and Seattle being the most talked about locations.

The NFL with no local TV contracts has the least reason to expand.

MLS has been expanding for over a decade, going from 12 to 30 and probably beyond. Leagues like the USFL, XFL and WNBA are talking expansion. The PHF just expanded.

So literally every closed league in the USA with local TV deals just had or is talking about adding teams. But sure, NHL is pathetic for it.

The NHL is talking about expanding to 34 immediately after expanding to 32, doesn't compare to leagues expanding to 32 from 30 imo. If baseball jumps into Portland and Montreal and then almost immediately starts talking about how they're going to also expand to Austin and Nashville, then we can talk comparisons to where the NHL is

I've also long suspected the endgame for MLS is a situation where they have a closed pro/rel league with MLS 1 and MLS 2 so it makes sense for them to keep expanding until they hit 40-ish teams

 

[KevFu]

With the expansion of gambling the NFL does have reason to expand because it would mean a larger inventory of games to bet on. The regular season can't go beyond 18 games.

Also, there is always the potential for more TV contracts. When you had 3 national networks you were basically locked into an AFC package, an NFC package, and a Monday night package. Then ESPN comes along and you add Sunday night. The NFL Network gets created and you add Thursday night. An All-Europe division will get you a Sunday morning slot to sell. There was talk before the last deal of scrapping the AFC/NFC model as well. That's all before you start thinking about Tuesday and Wednesday night games. I hate having my team's games on Thursday (there is always someone who isn't fully healed and the quality of play sucks) but it makes money so the league sticks with it.

Does the league directly benefit from the gambling? Are they getting a cut?

The Inventory for TV isn't a significant add for the NFL like it is in other sports. The AFC package, the NFC package, MNF, SNF and TNF... the networks are paying for EXCLUSIVITY: one exclusive time slot per per week where they have the only NFL game on at that time. (And the AFC/NFC Sunday afternoon one has one shared time slot). Adding more teams doesn't create additional time slots, it just creates more choice for games to be aired in those time slots.

The NHL is talking about expanding to 34 immediately after expanding to 32, doesn't compare to leagues expanding to 32 from 30 imo. If baseball jumps into Portland and Montreal and then almost immediately starts talking about how they're going to also expand to Austin and Nashville, then we can talk comparisons to where the NHL is

Well, the NHL ISN'T talking about 34 teams at all. It's been Buccigross tweeting about Atlanta and therefore Houston, and Salt Lake talking about how they want a team. (And of course, all of us!). The NHL is doing their usual "Not looking to expand at this time." (Which is what they always say until it's happening).

And the major difference between the NHL and EVERYONE ELSE is that MLB, NBA and NFL can't put teams into Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg. The NHL has Canada and Canada is awesome. While NBA, MLB and NFL can work in Vancouver and Montreal, the NHL is always going to be able to have +4 minimum over the other leagues because of the "small-market" Canadian teams that support hockey.

I've also long suspected the endgame for MLS is a situation where they have a closed pro/rel league with MLS 1 and MLS 2 so it makes sense for them to keep expanding until they hit 40-ish teams

If that's their endgame, they're screwing it up royally. They should have started MLS-2 first when they had like 16-18 teams, then sold 40 expansion teams into that league; and promoted teams to MLS with no relegation until the two leagues were balanced. Because no one who paid into MLS is going to want to risk being relegated to MLS-2. That's why MLS chose a closed system to begin with.

 

[aqib]

Does the league directly benefit from the gambling? Are they getting a cut?

The Inventory for TV isn't a significant add for the NFL like it is in other sports. The AFC package, the NFC package, MNF, SNF and TNF... the networks are paying for EXCLUSIVITY: one exclusive time slot per per week where they have the only NFL game on at that time. (And the AFC/NFC Sunday afternoon one has one shared time slot). Adding more teams doesn't create additional time slots, it just creates more choice for games to be aired in those time slots.




Well, the NHL ISN'T talking about 34 teams at all. It's been Buccigross tweeting about Atlanta and therefore Houston, and Salt Lake talking about how they want a team. (And of course, all of us!). The NHL is doing their usual "Not looking to expand at this time." (Which is what they always say until it's happening).

If they add European teams there will be an additional time slot. You'd have a Sunday morning game (And those actually are kind of fun). Secondly, more teams means you can also have Tuesday or Wednesday night games as well. Lastly, they have already discussed doing away with having AFC and NFC packages. When you just had CBS/ABC/NBC that made sense for one network to take AFC, one NFC, and one Monday night. But now you have 4 broadcast networks, a bunch of cable networks, and streaming. You can spread out your Sunday afternoon games over 3-4 networks if you want. to

 

[KevFu]

Sure, but the point is that the NFL has the least reason to expand compared to the NBA and NHL.

MLB is somewhere between because they have games virtually every day so the extra inventory is just more games for TV to choose from. (MLB for logistical reasons of 30 is just a horrible number to schedule with).

The NBA and NHL definitely have the most reason to expand. Because they play 82 regular games from October to April, there's like 180 days in the season, so teams are playing 2-3 times per week.

You add more teams and you can increase the number of games on a "light day of the week" and make a national TV package out of it.

You can sell a package for each day of the week if you have enough coverage that there isn't just one very lame game that day.

And of course, again, the NHL has 5 teams the other leagues don't have and probably never will: A third team in New York, and four Canadian small markets.

If the NBA can do 30 teams, the NHL can do 36. Because the NBA isn't going to a market the size of Winnipeg. That'd be like putting a team in Stockton, California!

 

[adsfan]

First, 16,000 seats seems small for the NHL. Is that the seating for hockey or for basketball? The Nassau Coliseum seats 13,900 for hockey.

Second, it takes 2 years to build an arena. They need to be breaking ground SOON to be ready for October 1, 2025. Or is the new SD team going to play 10 games on the road to start?

Third, Midtown? Near the casino and what was the 13,000 seat San Diego Sports Arena?
Will it be the same site or a different one?

Fourth, there is another thread about Atlanta wanting to build a 18,500 seat arena.

 

[TheLegend]

First, 16,000 seats seems small for the NHL. Is that the seating for hockey or for basketball? The Nassau Coliseum seats 13,900 for hockey.

Winnipeg's arena seats 15,294 (after they added some seats a couple of years ago). New Jersey's is just over 16,500.

Second, it takes 2 years to build an arena. They need to be breaking ground SOON to be ready for October 1, 2025. Or is the new SD team going to play 10 games on the road to start?

They aren't in a hurry. This is future consideration.

Third, Midtown? Near the casino and what was the 13,000 seat San Diego Sports Arena?
Will it be the same site or a different one?

It's going in what's known as the Midway District. At the north end of the city near Mission Bay and the I-8 / I-5 interchange. Where the current arena sits.

Fourth, there is another thread about Atlanta wanting to build a 18,500 seat arena.

Which really means nothing in respect to San Diego. This area has been in the planning stage for at least the last two years and was subject to three separate groups submitting proposals.. Atlanta is well back in the process.

 

[KevFu]

Second, it takes 2 years to build an arena. They need to be breaking ground SOON to be ready for October 1, 2025. Or is the new SD team going to play 10 games on the road to start?

Third, Midtown? Near the casino and what was the 13,000 seat San Diego Sports Arena?
Will it be the same site or a different one?

So the plan is to redevelop THIS area, with the new arena being to the right of my Red Pin Mark

But you can see the old arena is right there on the left. So obviously, you don't tear down the old arena until the new arena is finished.

 

[sh724]

Does the league directly benefit from the gambling? Are they getting a cut?

Not directly, but yes through advertising. The more fans that can bet on a game in real time the more advertising money they can make from gambling businesses.

There is a reason why every sports network devotes significant time to discussing gambling when a handful of years ago it wasnt talked about at all.

Plus the more people that bet on games the more likely ppl are to watch the games, so increased ratings.

There have been studdies completed showing how much fantasy football helps NFL ratings and that many people pay attention to the NFL solely because they enjoy playing fantasy football. Being able to gamble in real time is going to exponentially increase that demographic of veiwers.

 

[KevFu]

Not directly, but yes through advertising. The more fans that can bet on a game in real time the more advertising money they can make from gambling businesses.

There is a reason why every sports network devotes significant time to discussing gambling when a handful of years ago it wasnt talked about at all.

Plus the more people that bet on games the more likely ppl are to watch the games, so increased ratings.

There have been studdies completed showing how much fantasy football helps NFL ratings and that many people pay attention to the NFL solely because they enjoy playing fantasy football. Being able to gamble in real time is going to exponentially increase that demographic of veiwers.

Thanks! I generally don't know anything about that world.

They legalized sports gambling in my state, and the ad blitz was insane. I looked up how much money the sportsbooks spent on advertising in my market, and it was like $60 million, to advertise in Phoenix. From August to October right after legalization. And I thought "Where does that $60m come from?" And decided not to start gambling on sports.

Some of my friends do and because we're die-hard sports nerds we all share tips. I'm included despite not gambling myself, because of my nerdery. When I give tips, they're usually willing to put action on those games and I'll get Venmo tips for my tips if they hit big.

But that's as close as I come to knowing the business of gambling.

 

[adsfan]

So the plan is to redevelop THIS area, with the new arena being to the right of my Red Pin Mark

View attachment 722718


But you can see the old arena is right there on the left. So obviously, you don't tear down the old arena until the new arena is finished.

I was in the SD Sports Arena (now Pechanga) for the last game of the IHL San Diego Gulls on April (15th?) of 1995. The Admirals won Game 4 in the playoffs after winning Game 3 in 2OT. A few days later, the Murrah building in OKC was blown up on the 19th. We were at Disneyland in Anaheim that day. I didn't find out until breakfast the next day since the park was open to midnight.

We just happened to be in SD on vacation and caught one road game for our home team. Thank goodness that we didn't go to the Friday 2OT game with our two kids who were 7 and 4. They both got pucks at the Saturday game since there weren't many fans present. The Ads had 30 or so fans. The Gulls had maybe 1500 IIRC.

The parking will be even worse with the arena at one end! I found a good spot since there were few cars present. The Chick-fil-A was not there. I only remember the triangular parking lot.

 

[TheLegend]

I was in the SD Sports Arena (now Pechanga) for the last game of the IHL San Diego Gulls on April (15th?) of 1995. The Admirals won Game 4 in the playoffs after winning Game 3 in 2OT. A few days later, the Murrah building in OKC was blown up on the 19th. We were at Disneyland in Anaheim that day. I didn't find out until breakfast the next day since the park was open to midnight.

We just happened to be in SD on vacation and caught one road game for our home team. Thank goodness that we didn't go to the Friday 2OT game with our two kids who were 7 and 4. They both got pucks at the Saturday game since there weren't many fans present. The Ads had 30 or so fans. The Gulls had maybe 1500 IIRC.

The parking will be even worse with the arena at one end! I found a good spot since there were few cars present. The Chick-fil-A was not there. I only remember the triangular parking lot.

We might have been there at the same time for a game or two.

There were two big attractions on that site in that day. The Gulls and Kobey’s Swap Meet on weekends.

 

[adsfan]

We might have been there at the same time for a game or two.

There were two big attractions on that site in that day. The Gulls and Kobey’s Swap Meet on weekends.

Actually, I believe that that swap meet pin on the map is close to where I parked.

I remember walking down the parking lot to take a picture of the arena enterance and then buying the 4 tickets. I saw IHL games in Dayton, Milwaukee, Chicago, San Diego and two in Rochester. Those are in chronological order. I never went to many road games. That is why I remember SD so well.

It was just one game for myself. Game 4, on Saturday night. I had my transistor radio on for Game 3 listening to the local station broadcast. I shut it off when the game went to OT so the kids could sleep. I forgot to bring an ear jack across the country.

My younger daughter still collects hockey pucks. It all started with that game in San Diego 28 years ago.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

San Diego's such a sweet town, though.

I live there. Extremely expensive cost of living and California taxes and fees are absolutely vomit inducing. But it is a beautiful town with amazing food and there is almost always some event going on year round.

 

[GindyDraws]

It 100% is a matter of how many humans are there. The more people, the lower the portion of them you need to make a successful organization and the higher the potential is as more and more inroads into the market are made. You can’t discount the need for the effectiveness of two prongs of those inroads compared to one, even if one of the two has less reach than the other.

I don’t think the Clippers arena is going to affect Honda Center much, mostly because it’s like a block away from the Forum, making it pretty close to a status quo situation, and also because it’ll make 4 in the market. That’s probably about right (NYC market supports 5).

Ballmer bought the Forum after MSG tried to c-block them and propose moving the Lakers back there of all things, so the Clippers basically have two revenue sources (or two expenses, but it's LA, and everyone always is performing in LA).

As for the issue of the Ducks, the Arrowhead Pond just turned 30 this month, which naturally means to many people "time to tear it down!" but is it necessary just to do so?