Blue Jays Discussion: Spring Training Discussion: Countdown to the Season (Thursday at 3pm ET/noon PT)

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Bjindaho

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As much as there are concerns about a long-term deal for Chapman, he's never been anything less than a 3.5 WAR player with an above-average bat and elite defense. Describing him as "a short term gamble with warts" who you wouldn't want to sign to the QO deal is way crazier than wanting him on the Bellinger deal.
Espinal's bat played similarly 2 and 3 years ago, but he's a better 3B defender (so is IKF).

The problem here is that the Jays aren't in a position to pay for a premium 3B if they have cheap in-house solutions.

IKF is an overpay, but he also is a better outfielder, and would allow Jansen to DH occasionally. Also, there is some baserunning potential (even if the numbers don't necessarily reflect that so far).

What Toronto needs from this year (aside from on field successes) is for someone to step up and show that they could be an infield option (basically, take IKF's job away) and for either Varsho or someone else to step up in the OF.
 

Discoverer

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Espinal's bat played similarly 2 and 3 years ago, but he's a better 3B defender (so is IKF).

The problem here is that the Jays aren't in a position to pay for a premium 3B if they have cheap in-house solutions.

IKF is an overpay, but he also is a better outfielder, and would allow Jansen to DH occasionally. Also, there is some baserunning potential (even if the numbers don't necessarily reflect that so far).

What Toronto needs from this year (aside from on field successes) is for someone to step up and show that they could be an infield option (basically, take IKF's job away) and for either Varsho or someone else to step up in the OF.
Neither of those guys has remotely close to enough experience at 3B to say they're even close to the defender that Chapman is. Espinal and IKF have combined for ~2000 career innings at 3B.

I like Espinal a lot, and if you think he's the 115 wRC+ guy he was in 2021, then fair enough. Realistically, he significantly outperformed his expected stats and we would be lucky if he manages to be a league average hitter again. (I still hope they move him and give his spot to Clement).

I don't want them to pass on a reasonable contract for a 3.5+ WAR 3B because they have a couple versatile, 1.5 WAR utility guys.
 
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Bjindaho

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Neither of those guys has remotely close to enough experience at 3B to say they're even close to the defender that Chapman is. Espinal and IKF have combined for ~2000 career innings at 3B.

I like Espinal a lot, and if you think he's the 115 wRC+ guy he was in 2021, then fair enough. Realistically, he significantly outperformed his expected stats and we would be lucky if he manages to be a league average hitter again. (I still hope they move him and give his spot to Clement).

I don't want them to pass on a reasonable contract for a 3.5+ WAR 3B because they have a couple versatile, 1.5 WAR utility guys.
26M+ is not reasonable. That's the sticking point.

I would rather find out if Espinal is the 115 guy, knowing that we have a couple of 3B prospects who could potentially take the spot. There is also the possibility that Escobar steals the job.

Chapman's D worries me going forward. On a one year deal I can live with it, but I think this is a Donaldson situation where we've already seen his best and he's likely to tail off.

Something to keep in mind is that the Jays are currently a bit over the tax threshold. If they can lose some money, then they could get out of paying 30% on the overage (Chapman at 20M per would actually cost more than 26M in real dollars, would pass the 1st surcharge (more money), and put Toronto closer to the 2nd surcharge (42.5%) which ownership is highly unlikely to allow. If Toronto can get under the CBT this year, then next year is 20% instead of 50% (assuming that they can't avoid going over next year).
 

Bjindaho

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The velocity is there. Control obviously an issue.
It's day one. There's no reason to panic if a guy has a terrible first day of the year. The hope is that he puts it all behind him and tomorrow is a new day.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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I would rather find out if Espinal is the 115 guy, knowing that we have a couple of 3B prospects who could potentially take the spot. There is also the possibility that Escobar steals the job.
Is it 2010?

Escobar is 35 and was not that good in his prime to begin with.
 
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Discoverer

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Is it 2010?

Escobar is 35 and was not that good in his prime to begin with.
Yeah, Escobar's only chance of making the team is as a lefty-masher with a bit of positional versatility. He's a switch-hitter, but that's pretty much pointless when he can only hit from one side. And even then, Espinal can only really hit lefties too, so what does Escobar bring that you don't already have a better option for?

He's not taking a starting job from anyone.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Dude has gone from 315 down to 285 over winter .. da team gave him a objective to get down to 255 .. at least he has started his weight loss journey .. no more Doritos Manoah .. time to grow up ur 26 now .. when i was 55 i went from 255 down to 225 .. 30 lbs in like 6 months .. it was d*mn hard to do it
 

mikeyz

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We need to cut bait with Manoah man. He's finished. His confidence is clearly shot and the offense is not even remotely near potent enough to pick him up and bail him out every 4 to 5 days.
 

dredeye

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Mar 3, 2008
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It's day one. There's no reason to panic if a guy has a terrible first day of the year. The hope is that he puts it all behind him and tomorrow is a new day.
Maybe no need to panic but certainly reason for concern. Considering he had control issues last year.

Man can’t believe we signed IKF for 7.5 over Urshella.
Can we stop bringing this up once spring training is over please. We get it. People don’t like the contract let’s not make this an annoying narrative all year
 

Discoverer

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Orelvis has some good exit velocities today. Doubt he makes the team but he could easily be an early callup.

Also, if Clement has a good camp could be a chance he makes it over Espinal.
Clement deserves to be there based on what he did with the bat last year. I would be really disappointed if they DFA him (or trade him for next to nothing) to keep Espinal.
 

The Nemesis

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Which prospect has the best chance to break camp?

Roden?
Martinez?
Barger?
Horwitz?

We could use a LF/3B to split time with IKF or Kiermaier. It would be nice if Roden and Martinez stepped up.

1. Springer
2. Bichette
3. Vlad Jr.
4. Turner
5. Kirk
6. Schneider
7. Varhso
8. Martinez
9. Roden

If you want me to rank the order of likelihood I see for those 4 to break camp with the Jays I think it's

1) Barger (3B/RF would be useful to fill the hole on the left side of the infield and to spell Springer on days he needs to DH or take a rest. If the idea of Kiner-Falefa getting the bulk of 3B reps repulses you and you're not sold on an Espinal rebound, he might be the most likely candidate)

2) Horwitz (strictly 1B/DH limits his usefulness and he's not a thunderous bat that will force his way into playing time so it's not like he's high value and tops out as a bench bat. But if they carry a 5th bench slot for a pinch hitter then there are worse options)

3) Martinez (Seems like it'd be starter or bust for him to make the Jays. He shouldn't be sitting on the bench at this stage of his career. And he may be better off continuing to get reps at 2B in Buffalo where there's not as much pressure on him until he proves he can't be held down anymore. But if he absolutely explodes this spring then you can't look psat him)

4) Roden (The bat is supposed to be nice in a high-contact, middling power sort of way. Thing is that he's considered a mediocre-to-bad fielder who really only fits in LF and while Varsho sliding out of left to cover CF or RF in the absence of Kiermaier or Springer is a perfectly good solution, do you want to use a bench OF spot on a LF-only guy who's just a contact bat?)

As much as there are concerns about a long-term deal for Chapman, he's never been anything less than a 3.5 WAR player with an above-average bat and elite defense. Describing him as "a short term gamble with warts" who you wouldn't want to sign to the QO deal is way crazier than wanting him on the Bellinger deal.

The argument against Chapman is that the D is coming down off its "elite" perch and we don't know how much longer he'll be great at the corner. And the bat is starting to show some cracks too (he's been closer to a 110 wRC+ bat the last 4 years or so than he has been to his 125+ peak and last year's surface-good results are largely swung by 2 great months offsetting 4 extremely crappy ones)

Maybe this works out in the Jays' favor though. Bellinger's deal shows there's not a huge appetite for pricey Boras clients and their sky-high demands. Maybe you see if he'll sign a deal for <$25m a year for one year plus an option or something. Trade Espinal for a depth starter or medium leverage pen arm and roll with Chapman as the primary 3B, pushing Kiner-Falefa into his proper super-utility role. It's not a perfect solution but it is an acceptable one.

No tv today?

It seems like the Jays' TV plans are to do their own broadcasts for home games and simulcast the opponent's feed for road ones. They were visiting the Tigers today and it seems like Detroit didn't put together a broadcast, so we were out of luck.

It's day one. There's no reason to panic if a guy has a terrible first day of the year. The hope is that he puts it all behind him and tomorrow is a new day.

No reason to panic, but reason to be concerned. Guys like Bassitt and Kikuchi came into their first starts looking to tinker with stuff. One would think that Manoah's first order of business would be establishing himself and getting comfortable before he gets into the "it's ok if he gets lit up because he was mostly just throwing curveballs" or whatever sort of run. The fact that he had no command, plunked 3 guys and had more runs than hits is enough cause to be suspicious of him if not fully dismissive yet.

We need to cut bait with Manoah man. He's finished. His confidence is clearly shot and the offense is not even remotely near potent enough to pick him up and bail him out every 4 to 5 days.

It's 1 spring start. These are meaningless games designed to work through stuff like this. It would seem like the team is not banking on him being the #5 starter so there's no reason not to give him a few starts to see if he can sort it out. If 2 weeks from now he's still struggling maybe you look at what to do with him away from the MLB roster, but for now this is the sort of setup designed to try and help him figure this out if he's willing.
 

canucksfan

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Clement deserves to be there based on what he did with the bat last year. I would be really disappointed if they DFA him (or trade him for next to nothing) to keep Espinal.
Yup. Espinal hasn't done much since the first half of 2022. His defense last year wasn't great either.

Clement seems to be trending up as well.
 
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Petes

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Jun 23, 2014
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If the Giants end up getting Chapman… a JD Davis trade to the Jays makes a lot of sense. Pushes IKF into more of a super utility role.

VS LHP

DH - Turner
3B - Davis
2B - IKF
LF - Schneider
CF - Varsho

VS RHP

DH - Turner
3B - Davis
2B - Biggio
LF - Varsho
CF - KK
 

mikeyz

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Dec 3, 2013
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If you want me to rank the order of likelihood I see for those 4 to break camp with the Jays I think it's

1) Barger (3B/RF would be useful to fill the hole on the left side of the infield and to spell Springer on days he needs to DH or take a rest. If the idea of Kiner-Falefa getting the bulk of 3B reps repulses you and you're not sold on an Espinal rebound, he might be the most likely candidate)

2) Horwitz (strictly 1B/DH limits his usefulness and he's not a thunderous bat that will force his way into playing time so it's not like he's high value and tops out as a bench bat. But if they carry a 5th bench slot for a pinch hitter then there are worse options)

3) Martinez (Seems like it'd be starter or bust for him to make the Jays. He shouldn't be sitting on the bench at this stage of his career. And he may be better off continuing to get reps at 2B in Buffalo where there's not as much pressure on him until he proves he can't be held down anymore. But if he absolutely explodes this spring then you can't look psat him)

4) Roden (The bat is supposed to be nice in a high-contact, middling power sort of way. Thing is that he's considered a mediocre-to-bad fielder who really only fits in LF and while Varsho sliding out of left to cover CF or RF in the absence of Kiermaier or Springer is a perfectly good solution, do you want to use a bench OF spot on a LF-only guy who's just a contact bat?)



The argument against Chapman is that the D is coming down off its "elite" perch and we don't know how much longer he'll be great at the corner. And the bat is starting to show some cracks too (he's been closer to a 110 wRC+ bat the last 4 years or so than he has been to his 125+ peak and last year's surface-good results are largely swung by 2 great months offsetting 4 extremely crappy ones)

Maybe this works out in the Jays' favor though. Bellinger's deal shows there's not a huge appetite for pricey Boras clients and their sky-high demands. Maybe you see if he'll sign a deal for <$25m a year for one year plus an option or something. Trade Espinal for a depth starter or medium leverage pen arm and roll with Chapman as the primary 3B, pushing Kiner-Falefa into his proper super-utility role. It's not a perfect solution but it is an acceptable one.



It seems like the Jays' TV plans are to do their own broadcasts for home games and simulcast the opponent's feed for road ones. They were visiting the Tigers today and it seems like Detroit didn't put together a broadcast, so we were out of luck.



No reason to panic, but reason to be concerned. Guys like Bassitt and Kikuchi came into their first starts looking to tinker with stuff. One would think that Manoah's first order of business would be establishing himself and getting comfortable before he gets into the "it's ok if he gets lit up because he was mostly just throwing curveballs" or whatever sort of run. The fact that he had no command, plunked 3 guys and had more runs than hits is enough cause to be suspicious of him if not fully dismissive yet.



It's 1 spring start. These are meaningless games designed to work through stuff like this. It would seem like the team is not banking on him being the #5 starter so there's no reason not to give him a few starts to see if he can sort it out. If 2 weeks from now he's still struggling maybe you look at what to do with him away from the MLB roster, but for now this is the sort of setup designed to try and help him figure this out if he's willing.
It's been a year and a half. Since that game one start against Seattle in October 2022
 
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