Sporting News: Factors behind Team USA’s early exit

[kilowatt]

Poor journalism, in my opinion.

You are one of the few people with a real voice in hockey media that talks about this team, and you neglected the very obvious fact that 4 of the 5 highest drafted skaters on the team were 5th, 6th and 7th of 13th forwards in TOI and 7th of 7 among defensemen.

Why don't you call out the coach for playing favorites with grinders?

This is exactly the point I was hoping to see, and yet it’s often overlooked. Turcotte was given third/fourth line minutes and put up third/fourth line points. He didn’t play more than 13 minutes in any game of the tournament.

He obviously wasn’t a world-breaking talent, but let’s not act like he was given every chance to excel and just slumped. He brought it pretty much every night, and the pucks didn’t go in but for the most part he was tenacious on and off the puck and played the role he was asked to play.

I’m disappointed that he wasn’t played more and leaned on heavier, but I’m not disappointed in how he played given the cards he was dealt. He set up Caufield for a pretty important goal, too.

 

[JuJu Mobb]

Montreal should be worried about their first rounder. Non factor.

O

only Hughes and Zegras belonged being top 15 picks. The rest will be average players at the NHL level, or never materialize.

Typical hot takes courtesy of HFBoards.

 

[SI90]

Poor journalism, in my opinion.

You are one of the few people with a real voice in hockey media that talks about this team, and you neglected the very obvious fact that 4 of the 5 highest drafted skaters on the team were 5th, 6th and 7th of 13th forwards in TOI and 7th of 7 among defensemen.

Why don't you call out the coach for playing favorites with grinders?

This! This team wasn’t scary defensively but it was certainly capable of medaling.

biggest problem was Sandeline imo.

 

[wetcoast]

O

only Hughes and Zegras belonged being top 15 picks. The rest will be average players at the NHL level, or never materialize.

WTF is the only way to describe this post.

Turcotte not worthy of a top 15 pick last year would have been not only a complete joke but also a steal for the team that got him outside of the top 15.

This entire thread is the usual people making too much of a small sample size tournament.

 

[Czechboy]

U20 is a bit better, you can think of it as taking out the outliers (superstars). It hits every country at least, though each year who it hurts most varies.

I'd say the most affected lately are the Finn's but they keep winning the damn thing.lol

Using this year... Swedes could've had Boqvist and Dahlin on that blue line. I'm positive everyone got hit hard though. Germany might not have Seider next year.. that could really hurt them.

 

[Leviathan899]

Very well put. I often thought about the level of competition the NTDP plays and how it could skew stats. This doesn't mean that Turcotte or Caufield will not be solid NHLers but that perhaps too much is expected of them later on in their careers based on what they accomplished with the NTDP. I do disagree with your opinion that only Hughes and Zegras belonged in the top 15 as Turcotte will turn out to be one of the better players in the 19 draft and Caufield will score in the NHL but yeah, they were in a sense over-hypeded into massive future super stars because of the NTDP.

Fair enough, I was beating up on those guys maybe a bit too much. I do see turcotte being a fine NHL player I just think he’ll end up being a very good checking line C in the league and I’m just not sure that’s worth a 5th overall pick. But I’ll be happy to be proved wrong. I just don’t really see it with York, I think at his best he’s similar to a Gostisbehere type and I’m not overly high on that. He could be a Mike Reilly who has good skating ability and can move pucks, but I fail to ever see him being a high end offensive D or top end PP guy. Book is out on Boldy still; he does have some impressive tools.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Deceiving nonsense

This is a reach, and not what I said.

Wahlstrom is a returner. The overwhelming majority of returning players on any of these teams will play a big role on their team, and deserve to play a big role. There's the occasional grinder type of player who doesn't deserve it, but Wahlstrom comes with a lot of hype and a lot of talent. He was picked in the top 15 last year, and some thought he could've went in the top 5-10. He's certainly not a grinder who should play on lower lines. He played in the top six last year, as well.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Agreed. I called out how ridiculous it was that nearly half a dozen teammates were projected to go in the first round before they were even drafted and people acted like I didn't know what the USDP was. But I'd have said the same thing if it were London or CSKA or Modo etc. Same deal when I said Hughes should've accelerated his schooling and played NCAA last season. Hurr durr state of the art gym equipment. That's great if you're trying to be the best at exercising, but if you're trying to be the best hockey player, playing against older, better players is what you need.

At this point the '97s >>>> '01s.

I see a lot of you taking a victory lap because of the US's terrible tournament, and I don't think it makes much sense. I don't cheerlead for USA Hockey. I've said many times that the results aren't good enough. It's three years in a row without winning this tournament, two without winning the U18's, two lost finals in a row between those two tournaments, and no Gold with our most talented team ever. I merely think those questioning these players on an individual basis are overreacting, and will have their hot-takes exposed very soon.

NHL teams get draft picks wrong all the time. No one would disagree about that, but this is their job. The head scouts and area scouts watch these top guys all year. They watch them weekly, they know the games of these players better than just about any fan here. If the consensus in the NHL had 7 of these guys in the top 15, why is that stat something that causes so much consternation? Does the drafting department of all these teams want to get themselves fired? Is this the boys club in action between USA Hockey and NHL teams? None of these theories make much sense. It's unlikely all seven turn into great NHL'ers, but thats besides the point because thats in hindsight. This is a discussion with foresight.

I don't see what's so unlikely about that stat either. The NTDP is an all-star team. Comparing it to any club team in hockey is not a good representation. This is an identification of the best American players at the age of 15-16. About 95% of the best American players accept an invitation to the NTDP. If two years later that group produces seven top 15 picks, why is that so unthinkable? Does Canada never produce 7 of the top 15 picks? Have we not seen a lot of high picks from Sweden, Finland, Russia in one year? This was talked about as the best NTDP crop ever. It's not as if the NTDP produces so many top picks every year. There likely won't be a top 15 pick from the NTDP this year.

And I see a lot of confirmation bias with results, as if we didn't see last year that the Lightning were the best regular season NHL team ever, and then lost four in a row in a short tournament that eliminated them from the end of season tournament. Sweden has won how many games in a row in the group stage and has one Gold Medal in almost 40 years, and they are eliminated each year because of a one-off game. These one-off games or playoff series are a terrible way to judge the caliber of a team, and an even worse way to judge the talent on that team. We all know that. The best and most talented team does not win this tournament each year. The best and most talented team does not win in the NHL each year.

Anyone who watched the U18's last year knew that the US was as dominant of a team as that tournament has seen in years, maybe ever. The games weren't close. The USA was destroying teams that beat them regularly or play them close in other age groups. And yet again, the best team didn't win the tournament. A generational goaltending talent stood on his head to eliminate the Americans. Thats part of hockey.

How does any of that make these players overhyped or undeserving of their draft slots? These players that are supposedly overhyped played anywhere from around 40-80 minutes in this tournament. Is a 40-80 minute sample from 10 days of games a significant enough sample to call a player overrated in an informed manner? If someone wants to make a credible case against these players on an individual basis, I think that would be a lot more of a respectable opinion than broadly saying these players are overrated and labeling them as busts.

 

[General Fanager]

Montreal should be worried about their first rounder. Non factor.

Blame The Habs pick. 4 Posts into the thread. I would say that is some kind of record but i know its not.....

Seems to me there were plenty of noshows on The US team, i am curious why you single him out???

 

[blindpass]

I see a lot of you taking a victory lap because of the US's terrible tournament, and I don't think it makes much sense. I don't cheerlead for USA Hockey. I've said many times that the results aren't good enough. It's three years in a row without winning this tournament, two without winning the U18's, two lost finals in a row between those two tournaments, and no Gold with our most talented team ever. I merely think those questioning these players on an individual basis are overreacting, and will have their hot-takes exposed very soon.

NHL teams get draft picks wrong all the time. No one would disagree about that, but this is their job. The head scouts and area scouts watch these top guys all year. They watch them weekly, they know the games of these players better than just about any fan here. If the consensus in the NHL had 7 of these guys in the top 15, why is that stat something that causes so much consternation? Does the drafting department of all these teams want to get themselves fired? Is this the boys club in action between USA Hockey and NHL teams? None of these theories make much sense. It's unlikely all seven turn into great NHL'ers, but thats besides the point because thats in hindsight. This is a discussion with foresight.

I don't see what's so unlikely about that stat either. The NTDP is an all-star team. Comparing it to any club team in hockey is not a good representation. This is an identification of the best American players at the age of 15-16. About 95% of the best American players accept an invitation to the NTDP. If two years later that group produces seven top 15 picks, why is that so unthinkable? Does Canada never produce 7 of the top 15 picks? Have we not seen a lot of high picks from Sweden, Finland, Russia in one year? This was talked about as the best NTDP crop ever. It's not as if the NTDP produces so many top picks every year. There likely won't be a top 15 pick from the NTDP this year.

And I see a lot of confirmation bias with results, as if we didn't see last year that the Lightning were the best regular season NHL team ever, and then lost four in a row in a short tournament that eliminated them from the end of season tournament. Sweden has won how many games in a row in the group stage and has one Gold Medal in almost 40 years, and they are eliminated each year because of a one-off game. These one-off games or playoff series are a terrible way to judge the caliber of a team, and an even worse way to judge the talent on that team. We all know that. The best and most talented team does not win this tournament each year. The best and most talented team does not win in the NHL each year.

Anyone who watched the U18's last year knew that the US was as dominant of a team as that tournament has seen in years, maybe ever. The games weren't close. The USA was destroying teams that beat them regularly or play them close in other age groups. And yet again, the best team didn't win the tournament. A generational goaltending talent stood on his head to eliminate the Americans. Thats part of hockey.

How does any of that make these players overhyped or undeserving of their draft slots? These players that are supposedly overhyped played anywhere from around 40-80 minutes in this tournament. Is a 40-80 minute sample from 10 days of games a significant enough sample to call a player overrated in an informed manner? If someone wants to make a credible case against these players on an individual basis, I think that would be a lot more of a respectable opinion than broadly saying these players are overrated and labeling them as busts.

If they are granted an "honarary gold" will you stop? That seems to be what you are after. It's poor sportsmanship to pretend they somehow need to be acknowledged as the best team when 1) they haven't won anything, and 2) they aren't clear favorites over any of the major teams, best on best.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If they are granted an "honarary gold" will you stop? That seems to be what you are after. It's poor sportsmanship to pretend they somehow need to be acknowledged as the best team when 1) they haven't won anything, and 2) they aren't clear favorites over any of the major teams, best on best.

I guess this is the difference between you and I. You are here for nationality wars, I'm here to discuss hockey. I think the arguments being made are ridiculous because there's no substance to any of them, you are trying to make sure your perceived rival country doesn't get any credit and you are making sure that anyone who points out the ridiculousness of these arguments is viewed as a sore loser.

 

[blindpass]

I guess this is the difference between you and I. You are here for nationality wars, I'm here to discuss hockey. I think the arguments being made are ridiculous because there's no substance to any of them, you are trying to make sure your perceived rival country doesn't get any credit and you are making sure that anyone who points out the ridiculousness of these arguments is viewed as a sore loser.

I'm really not. Just disputed some silly claims and it's taken on a life of its own. You could choose not to defend those claims, but you don't.

 

[BHD]

Poor journalism, in my opinion.

You are one of the few people with a real voice in hockey media that talks about this team, and you neglected the very obvious fact that 4 of the 5 highest drafted skaters on the team were 5th, 6th and 7th of 13th forwards in TOI and 7th of 7 among defensemen.

Why don't you call out the coach for playing favorites with grinders?

That's some Babcock-level stuff there.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

I think the Miracle on Ice had a huge impact on the Roenick, Tkachuk, Leetch, Amonte, et al generation of American players who had great success in the NHL but never really had any success in the WJC.
These days I think it's much closer to 0 than 100% though.

NHL of course I would currently rate much higher.
I also think the NCAA competition has improved a lot since the mid 90's.


Of course the NTDP is not the only factor involved in the increased success of USA Hockey in the WJC or in the NHL but the results speak for themselves.
It's definitely working as intended, and probably better than anyone honestly expected.

You do realize that other than Ramsey all the Miracle players were born 1954-1959?

I could make D corps for the 1975, 1976 and 1977
born US Players that will probably be better than what this group will be. I don't see an elite guy in this group.

1975 - Mike O'Connell, Craig Norwich, Jack Brownschidle, Reed Larson, Ron Wilson,
Ken Morrow, Dick Lamby

1976 - Larson, Morrow, Bill Baker, Langway, Roberts,
O'Callahan, Richie Dunn

1977 - Langway, Roberts, O'Callahan, Dunn,
Jim Korn, Dave Feamster, Suter

Norris Trophy, multiple NHL All Star Game
participants.

This years D was weak.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Is it just me or does this years Team USA nearly identical to 2019 Team Canada?

Identical expectations, identical result (1 goal loss to the Finns in QF), and very similar issues (coaching, under performance from star player).

 

[SanDogBrewin]

I remember from 2016 U18 semifinals they said in interview "bounces didn't go their way" and people were kinda annoyed in comment sections for not giving credit to the other team.

Finland definitely deserves credit for the win. US coaches have not been able to counter the Finnish game plans as of late. That’s a compliment to Finland’s coaching.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

You do realize that other than Ramsey all the Miracle players were born 1954-1959?

I could make D corps for the 1975, 1976 and 1977
born US Players that will probably be better than what this group will be. I don't see an elite guy in this group.

1975 - Mike O'Connell, Craig Norwich, Jack Brownschidle, Reed Larson, Ron Wilson,
Ken Morrow, Dick Lamby

1976 - Larson, Morrow, Bill Baker, Langway, Roberts,
O'Callahan, Richie Dunn

1977 - Langway, Roberts, O'Callahan, Dunn,
Jim Korn, Dave Feamster, Suter

Norris Trophy, multiple NHL All Star Game
participants.

This years D was weak.

Isn’t it a little early to be saying this years’ D won’t have NHL success?
They lost a 1-0 game.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Isn’t it a little early to be saying this years’ D won’t have NHL success?
They lost a 1-0 game.

Several if the US D men will absolutely have NHL
careers. That said none of those players have the
talent Langway, Larson, O'Connell and Roberts
had when they were Jr. Eligible.

O'Connell was voted the OHA best Dman award in
1975. Roberts was a regular in the WHA at 18. Langway
was one of the top NCAA D men in 1976-77 and Larson
played in the NHL All Star Game in 1978, 2 years after his Jr elegibility was up.

That group of Dmen had Jr/NCAA play a significant
level above anything this group did. Just so you know
I'm same age as O'Connell and grew up in Boston.
I literally saw O'Connell play in HS.

That group of US players born in the mid to late 50's
was much better than people think.