Sporting News: Factors behind Team USA’s early exit

[GoAwayPanarin]

They didn't play well enough, but they had more than enough on the roster to get a medal.

Slapping a C on the chest of the worst D of all the guys you invited isn't a good look though.

 

[Statsy]

They didn't play well enough, but they had more than enough on the roster to get a medal.

Slapping a C on the chest of the worst D of all the guys you invited isn't a good look though.

Hey, it's working for Sweden!

 

[theVladiator]

What's your stance on Correlation vis-a-vis Causation? Personally, I think Miracle on Ice and NHL deserve a ton of credit for explosive growth of the young player *base* for NTDP program to choose from, and deserve anywhere from >0 to 100% of the credit for that tournament record.

To be clear, I do not agree with the part of the post you highlighted as the target of your response, I am just trying to exercise my critical thinking faculties.

The Miracle on Ice was responsible for a participation growth and quite possibly the best American NHL'ers were around at that time.

And they still had little to no success in this tournament.

Only after starting the USNTDP and taking hockey much more seriously (at all levels) has the US seen any form of sustained success.

I guess Im saying I disagree with you

Sorry, do you think that the credit Miracle and NHL deserve is outside the range of 0 to 100%? Or did you disagree with something else?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

It was a team that never fired on all cylinders and was bounced 1-0. Disappointing to be sure.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You're telling me you read the underlined -- or the entire paragraphs for that matter -- and somehow deduced that the coach wasn't criticized for keeping high-profile players on the bench?

I read the whole article. You briefly touched on some of it, but not in terms that make clear it was one of the biggest problems with the team.

Maybe your style isn’t to go throw around big criticism, but I don’t think you are touching on the overall lack of reliance on the best prospects on the team when you mention the head-scratching decision is only playing two lines. It’s beating around the bush. What if those two lines included Zegras, Turcotte, Caufield playing 17-18 per game? We don’t know that relying on two lines would’ve been a problem. What we know is that over-reliance on two lines is a problem when it’s not your best prospects on those two lines.

 

[Breakers]

I watched that tournament, and I know a stolen game when I see one. The best team didn't win that day. I don't care if you don't believe me.

Hell of a lot of hype for a U18 team that couldn't even get to a gold medal game, let alone lose in it.
LOL
All i kept hearing how this group of kids was going was going to continue where they left off in the U20.
womp womp
They way they were talked about you'd think they would be battling for the NCAA scoring race right now, yet no freshman is in the top 20 in scoring.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Very well put. I often thought about the level of competition the NTDP plays and how it could skew stats. This doesn't mean that Turcotte or Caufield will not be solid NHLers but that perhaps too much is expected of them later on in their careers based on what they accomplished with the NTDP. I do disagree with your opinion that only Hughes and Zegras belonged in the top 15 as Turcotte will turn out to be one of the better players in the 19 draft and Caufield will score in the NHL but yeah, they were in a sense over-hypeded into massive future super stars because of the NTDP.

I hope you are aware that the post you quoted is an emotional Leaf fan that is trying to play the “my prospect is better than these other prospects” game.

I don’t even think most people criticized Robertson, but this guy wanted to make sure everyone knows that all the players who could’ve played more are overrated and that Robertson is great.

If you think you are having a real discussion with that guy, you are coming out looking bad. That guy is a Dubas cheerleader who is going to attack anyone in his way. That’s not a rational discussion you are having.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Agreed.
This is what's bad about these threads. At the very least people should make sure they credit the other team. The conversations go on as if they (as fans) are entitled to victory and failures on the part of coaches and players deprive you of it; ignoring the fact that there are other strong teams out there and you won't always win. BTW this bugs me most when it's my country doing it.


This is just as bad though. It was a single game, decided by the narrowest margin. Finns played great and gutted out a win, all the credit to them. But we can skip the unfounded pronouncements. They came out on top on the day.

I remember from 2016 U18 semifinals they said in interview "bounces didn't go their way" and people were kinda annoyed in comment sections for not giving credit to the other team.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Turcotte and Caufield really didn't deserve more icetime. I thought they were non factors from beginning to end except for the OT play

If you want to sit there and blame TOI for why the USA got kicked out in the semis you can but to me it was the big boys didn't play like big boys except for Zegras and Pinto upfront

Pinto is not a “big boy upfront.”

This shows what I mean that some people only come here to make comments with their NHL team interest in mind. You obviously feel like if we point out the fact that Caufield and Turcotte, but especially Turcotte, were properly placed, Pinto would get less minutes.

And that’s incredibly selfish on your part. Are you American? Do you care about the results of the team? We saw what happened with the lesser prospects getting bigger minutes and it didn’t work. Common sense dictates that you play your best players the most. It’s missing the point to after the fact blame your best players for being average in small roles instead of blaming the coach for a very unconventional strategy.

 

[blindpass]

I remember from 2016 U18 semifinals they said in interview "bounces didn't go their way" and people were kinda annoyed in comment sections for not giving credit to the other team.

It can be both. Jones' shot off the crossbar was a centimeter from being a goal that could have changed everything. But that's no reason not to credit Finland.

 

[HSF]

Pinto is not a “big boy upfront.”

This shows what I mean that some people only come here to make comments with their NHL team interest in mind. You obviously feel like if we point out the fact that Caufield and Turcotte, but especially Turcotte, were properly placed, Pinto would get less minutes.

And that’s incredibly selfish on your part. Are you American? Do you care about the results of the team? We saw what happened with the lesser prospects getting bigger minutes and it didn’t work. Common sense dictates that you play your best players the most. It’s missing the point to after the fact blame your best players for being average in small roles instead of blaming the coach for a very unconventional strategy.

Problem solved

Robertson-Turcotte-Wahlstrom
Kaliyev-Zegras-Caufield
Pinto-Drury-Brink
Beecher-Pivonka-Hall
Ford

So what separates Robertson from Pinto in your lineup? Pinto was a 2nd round pick and has put up excellent offensive numbers so far this year and brings a big net front presence that no one else on that team really does. Pinto was definitely not the problem on the team as he actually showed up. He was definitely seen as one of the big boys on the team

Turcotte definitely didn't earn his way up the lineup like Zegras did. Just cause you don't know about a prospect and he wasn't a top 10 pick doesn't mean he isn't being relied upon by the team to produce especially when his skillset is unique to the team

 

[tealhockey]

Pinto is not a “big boy upfront.”

This shows what I mean that some people only come here to make comments with their NHL team interest in mind. You obviously feel like if we point out the fact that Caufield and Turcotte, but especially Turcotte, were properly placed, Pinto would get less minutes.

And that’s incredibly selfish on your part. Are you American? Do you care about the results of the team? We saw what happened with the lesser prospects getting bigger minutes and it didn’t work. Common sense dictates that you play your best players the most. It’s missing the point to after the fact blame your best players for being average in small roles instead of blaming the coach for a very unconventional strategy.

Pinto was one pick out of the first round and is performing as well as any American forward from that class on the team, he looked like a major part of the team well before it began

 

[Breakers]

So what separates Robertson from Pinto in your lineup? Pinto was a 2nd round pick and has put up excellent offensive numbers so far this year and brings a big net front presence that no one else on that team really does. Pinto was definitely not the problem on the team as he actually showed up. He was definitely seen as one of the big boys on the team

Turcotte definitely didn't earn his way up the lineup like Zegras did. Just cause you don't know about a prospect and he wasn't a top 10 pick doesn't mean he isn't being relied upon by the team to produce especially when his skillset is unique to the team

apparently every player that wasnt chosen in the top 15 doesn't have the pedigree to deserve the ice time they get.

 

[blindpass]

If the players bought into to the hype around the US year 2000 players as much as their HF fans did maybe that was the problem. Maybe they didn't realize they'd have to work for it.

 

[BLNY]

Montreal should be worried about their first rounder. Non factor.

Not when you realize he played with two grinders. Beyond that, look at the number of guys that had mega U20 tournaments and never amounted to anything in the NHL. There's far more of those than guys who had one bad week as a teenager with a group they never gelled with.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So what separates Robertson from Pinto in your lineup? Pinto was a 2nd round pick and has put up excellent offensive numbers so far this year and brings a big net front presence that no one else on that team really does. Pinto was definitely not the problem on the team as he actually showed up. He was definitely seen as one of the big boys on the team

Turcotte definitely didn't earn his way up the lineup like Zegras did. Just cause you don't know about a prospect and he wasn't a top 10 pick doesn't mean he isn't being relied upon by the team to produce especially when his skillset is unique to the team

What separates Robertson is that we didn’t have the top two line slots filled with top ten picks, like we had at center. Wahlstrom would take a spot as a returning first round pick, and then it’d be three of Caufield, Boldy, Kaliyev, Robertson, Brink. As I continuously said, other than the two centers and Wahlstrom, the lines from there should’ve been who fits well on which lines.

I think Pinto’s even lucky he made the team. I’m still not convinced he needed to be there. He’s not a bad player, but we saw what happened when he was the 1C for this team. He couldn’t fill the role. He was better suited in a complimentary role or not on the team. I’m not going to change my opinion because a bad coach who doubled down on his own bad decisions names Pinto one of the top three players on the team at this tournament.

I knew plenty about Pinto, so that’s not going to work against me. You are probably the person that learned his name in late June. And besides, you are completely deflecting from the point that Turcotte, Zegras and Caufield earned ice time before the tournament started. This is how it goes in sports. The best players on your team don’t have to outplay proven worse players over a 60-80 minute sample to earn minutes. No well-run team operates like that.

 

[wishywashy19]

I'm getting confused on the narrative. Was the US embarrassed losing to Finland or was it supposed to happen?

The Americans now think it is their God given right to be the favourites all the time now I guess based on their youth programs
I have no idea why they should
Get over it,
The loss to the Finns is not really all that much a shock to those that know the game

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

What's your stance on Correlation vis-a-vis Causation? Personally, I think Miracle on Ice and NHL deserve a ton of credit for explosive growth of the young player *base* for NTDP program to choose from, and deserve anywhere from >0 to 100% of the credit for that tournament record.

To be clear, I do not agree with the part of the post you highlighted as the target of your response, I am just trying to exercise my critical thinking faculties.

I think the Miracle on Ice had a huge impact on the Roenick, Tkachuk, Leetch, Amonte, et al generation of American players who had great success in the NHL but never really had any success in the WJC.
These days I think it's much closer to 0 than 100% though.

NHL of course I would currently rate much higher.
I also think the NCAA competition has improved a lot since the mid 90's.


Of course the NTDP is not the only factor involved in the increased success of USA Hockey in the WJC or in the NHL but the results speak for themselves.
It's definitely working as intended, and probably better than anyone honestly expected.

 

[Corso]

I hope you are aware that the post you quoted is an emotional Leaf fan that is trying to play the “my prospect is better than these other prospects” game.

I don’t even think most people criticized Robertson, but this guy wanted to make sure everyone knows that all the players who could’ve played more are overrated and that Robertson is great.

If you think you are having a real discussion with that guy, you are coming out looking bad. That guy is a Dubas cheerleader who is going to attack anyone in his way. That’s not a rational discussion you are having.

Never really cared about the whole my prospect is better than the rest thing, I simply happened to agree with his opinion on how the NTDP can inflate hype and on occasion stats.

 

[Breakers]

Who said that? You’ve produced a lot of strawmen since this tournament in opposition of our players. It’s almost like you are happy to see our country get bad results at this tournament.

I just dont buy into the hype they got
They are Good prospects that really haven't achieved that much
U18 gold? Nope, but you wouldn't know it by the hype they got at the draft as some all world team.
U20 medal ? Nope
are any of these kids destroying the NCAA currently?

 

[theVladiator]

I think the Miracle on Ice had a huge impact on the Roenick, Tkachuk, Leetch, Amonte, et al generation of American players who had great success in the NHL but never really had any success in the WJC.
These days I think it's much closer to 0 than 100% though.

NHL of course I would currently rate much higher.
I also think the NCAA competition has improved a lot since the mid 90's.


Of course the NTDP is not the only factor involved in the increased success of USA Hockey in the WJC or in the NHL but the results speak for themselves.
It's definitely working as intended, and probably better than anyone honestly expected.

Reading this post, I will say we probably agree on a lot of things. I am not really interested in clarifying our differences over exact percentage, but that's the point of my original reply to you. The way you used the data in your earlier post is not proper, since you have attributed WJC success solely to NTDP. In contrast, looks like we agree that there are a number of intertwined factors at play here, so the chronological progression on its own is not a clear metric of US NTDP success. I understand that there is some pressure to back up our opinions with "proof" and "stats" around here, and it's tempting to shut the opponent up with "data", but respecting the logic and statistics pays off in the long run. I firmly believe that

 

[theVladiator]

Wahlstrom would take a spot as a returning first round pick

Who said that?

 

[Sojourn]

Typical, all reasons are about USA's weaknesses, with no credit given to Team Finland.

They simply met the stronger team, that happens.

By the way, calling Wahlstrom some goal-scorer is odd. He has scored 3 goals this season, and 10 last season.

Did it occur to you that the article is meant to go deeper than just one single game?

That those same issues they had in previous games could very easily be viewed as one of the reasons they didn't beat Finland?

I feel like you're just complaining that they didn't rave about Finland, and you wouldn't have been happy otherwise. It was an article, specifically, to discuss the faults of the US team. That's what it did. It mentioned Finland, and then continued to discuss what was wrong with the US team, which is what you'd expect if you had read the title.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I just dont buy into the hype they got
They are Good prospects that really haven't achieved that much
U18 gold? Nope, but you wouldn't know it by the hype they got at the draft as some all world team.
U20 medal ? Nope
are any of these kids destroying the NCAA currently?

Agreed. I called out how ridiculous it was that nearly half a dozen teammates were projected to go in the first round before they were even drafted and people acted like I didn't know what the USDP was. But I'd have said the same thing if it were London or CSKA or Modo etc. Same deal when I said Hughes should've accelerated his schooling and played NCAA last season. Hurr durr state of the art gym equipment. That's great if you're trying to be the best at exercising, but if you're trying to be the best hockey player, playing against older, better players is what you need.

At this point the '97s >>>> '01s.

 

[ijuka]

I'm getting confused on the narrative. Was the US embarrassed losing to Finland or was it supposed to happen?

Sometimes you just meet a team that's better than you in 1 game. Not sure how you came to either of those two choices of yours.

Instead of all this blaming team USA players for their "failure", one could just admit the other team simply played better.