Some summertime fun: Comparing Crosby vs. McDavid best Playoff runs

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blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
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For reference:

Crosby Playoffs by Series
YearTm RankOpp RankOpp GA RankOpponentGPPTS+/-PPG
2007​
8​
8​
10​
Sens
5​
5​
Even
1.00​
2008​
4​
12​
24​
Sens
4​
8​
2​
2.00​
2008​
4​
8​
4​
Rangers
5​
6​
Even
1.20​
2008​
4​
10​
18​
Flyers
5​
7​
4​
1.40​
2008​
4​
1​
1​
Wings
6​
6​
1​
1.00​
2009​
8​
8​
16​
Flyers
6​
8​
2​
1.33​
2009​
8​
4​
19​
Caps
7​
13​
4​
1.86​
2009​
8​
11​
8​
Canes
4​
7​
6​
1.75​
2009
8
3
19
Wings
7
3
-3
0.43
2010​
8​
13​
18​
Sens
6​
14​
7​
2.33​
2010​
8​
18​
11​
Habs
7​
5​
-1​
0.71​
2012​
4​
6​
20​
Flyers
6​
8​
-3​
1.33​
2013​
2​
15​
21​
Isles
5​
9​
-1​
1.80​
2013​
2​
12​
2​
Sens
5​
6​
Even
1.20​
2013
2
5
3
Bruins
4
0
-2
0.00
2014​
6​
14​
13​
Jackets
6​
6​
-2​
1.00​
2014
6
12
4
Rangers
7
3
-2
0.43
2015​
15​
1​
3​
Rangers
5​
4​
1​
0.80​
2016​
4​
9​
15​
Rangers
5​
8​
2​
1.60​
2016
4
1
2
Caps
6
2
-3
0.33
2016​
4​
12​
5​
Lightning
7​
5​
-1​
0.71​
2016​
4​
11​
10​
Sharks
6​
4​
Even
0.67​
2017​
2​
4​
2​
Jackets
5​
7​
-2​
1.40​
2017​
2​
1​
1​
Caps
6​
7​
4​
1.17​
2017​
2​
6​
10​
Sens
7​
6​
-3​
0.86​
2017​
2​
15​
15​
Preds
6​
7​
5​
1.17​
2018​
10​
12​
14​
Flyers
6​
13​
7​
2.17​
2018​
10​
6​
16​
Caps
6​
8​
Even
1.33​
2019
7
5
1
Isles
4
1
-4
0.25
2020​
7​
24​
23​
Habs
4​
3​
Even
0.75​
2021​
5​
12​
2​
Isles
6​
2​
-2​
0.33​
2022​
12​
7​
2​
Rangers
6​
10​
2​
1.67​

McDavid Playoffs by Series
ChronoYearTm RankOpp RankOpp GA RankOpponentGPPTS+/-PPG
1​
2017​
7​
10​
5​
Sharks
6​
4​
Even
0.67​
2​
2017​
7​
6​
3​
Ducks
7​
5​
1​
0.71​
3​
2020​
12​
23​
16​
Hawks
4​
9​
1​
2.25​
4​
2021​
11​
14​
10​
Jets
4​
4​
-2​
1.00​
5​
2022​
11​
14​
9​
Kings
7​
14​
10​
2.00​
6​
2022​
11​
6​
3​
Flames
5​
12​
9​
2.40​
7​
2022​
11​
2​
9​
Avs
4​
7​
-4​
1.75​
8​
2023​
6​
10​
16​
Kings
6​
10​
-1​
1.67​
9​
2023​
6​
4​
11​
Knights
6​
10​
Even
1.67​
10​
2024​
9​
12​
3​
Kings
5​
12​
3​
2.40​
11​
2024​
9​
6​
5​
Canucks
7​
9​
2​
1.29​
12​
2024​
9​
2​
8​
Stars
6​
10​
2​
1.67​
13​
2024​
9​
4​
1​
Panthers
7​
11​
5​
1.57​


And all in one, sorted by opponent defense

PlayerYearTm RankOpp RankOpp GA RankOpponentGPPTS+/-PPG
Crosby
2017​
2​
1​
1​
Caps
6​
7​
4​
1.17​
Crosby
2008​
4​
1​
1​
Wings
6​
6​
1​
1.00​
McDavid
2024​
9​
4​
1​
Panthers
7​
11​
5​
1.57​
Crosby
2019​
7​
5​
1​
Isles
4​
1​
-4​
0.25​
Crosby
2016​
4​
1​
2​
Caps
6​
2​
-3​
0.33​
Crosby
2017​
2​
4​
2​
Jackets
5​
7​
-2​
1.40​
Crosby
2022​
12​
7​
2​
Rangers
6​
10​
2​
1.67​
Crosby
2013​
2​
12​
2​
Sens
5​
6​
Even
1.20​
Crosby
2021​
5​
12​
2​
Isles
6​
2​
-2​
0.33​
Crosby
2015​
15​
1​
3​
Rangers
5​
4​
1​
0.80​
Crosby
2013​
2​
5​
3​
Bruins
4​
0​
-2​
0.00​
McDavid
2022​
11​
6​
3​
Flames
5​
12​
9​
2.40​
McDavid
2017​
7​
6​
3​
Ducks
7​
5​
1​
0.71​
McDavid
2024​
9​
12​
3​
Kings
5​
12​
3​
2.40​
Crosby
2008​
4​
8​
4​
Rangers
5​
6​
Even
1.20​
Crosby
2014​
6​
12​
4​
Rangers
7​
3​
-2​
0.43​
McDavid
2024​
9​
6​
5​
Canucks
7​
9​
2​
1.29​
McDavid
2017​
7​
10​
5​
Sharks
6​
4​
Even
0.67​
Crosby
2016​
4​
12​
5​
Lightning
7​
5​
-1​
0.71​
McDavid
2024​
9​
2​
8​
Stars
6​
10​
2​
1.67​
Crosby
2009​
8​
11​
8​
Canes
4​
7​
6​
1.75​
McDavid
2022​
11​
2​
9​
Avs
4​
7​
-4​
1.75​
McDavid
2022​
11​
14​
9​
Kings
7​
14​
10​
2.00​
Crosby
2017​
2​
6​
10​
Sens
7​
6​
-3​
0.86​
Crosby
2007​
8​
8​
10​
Sens
5​
5​
Even
1.00​
Crosby
2016​
4​
11​
10​
Sharks
6​
4​
Even
0.67​
McDavid
2021​
11​
14​
10​
Jets
4​
4​
-2​
1.00​
McDavid
2023​
6​
4​
11​
Knights
6​
10​
Even
1.67​
Crosby
2010​
8​
18​
11​
Habs
7​
5​
-1​
0.71​
Crosby
2014​
6​
14​
13​
Jackets
6​
6​
-2​
1.00​
Crosby
2018​
10​
12​
14​
Flyers
6​
13​
7​
2.17​
Crosby
2016​
4​
9​
15​
Rangers
5​
8​
2​
1.60​
Crosby
2017​
2​
15​
15​
Preds
6​
7​
5​
1.17​
Crosby
2018​
10​
6​
16​
Caps
6​
8​
Even
1.33​
Crosby
2009​
8​
8​
16​
Flyers
6​
8​
2​
1.33​
McDavid
2023​
6​
10​
16​
Kings
6​
10​
-1​
1.67​
McDavid
2020​
12​
23​
16​
Hawks
4​
9​
1​
2.25​
Crosby
2008​
4​
10​
18​
Flyers
5​
7​
4​
1.40​
Crosby
2010​
8​
13​
18​
Sens
6​
14​
7​
2.33​
Crosby
2009​
8​
3​
19​
Wings
7​
3​
-3​
0.43​
Crosby
2009​
8​
4​
19​
Caps
7​
13​
4​
1.86​
Crosby
2012​
4​
6​
20​
Flyers
6​
8​
-3​
1.33​
Crosby
2013​
2​
15​
21​
Isles
5​
9​
-1​
1.80​
Crosby
2020​
7​
24​
23​
Habs
4​
3​
Even
0.75​
Crosby
2008​
4​
12​
24​
Sens
4​
8​
2​
2.00​


And finally, cumulative performance against teams by their regular season GA rank.

Opp GA RankMcDavid GPPTS+/-PPGCrosby GPPTS+/-PPG
Vs Top 63753201.437259-80.82
Vs 7-12274561.67292720.93
Vs 13-18101901.904671251.54
Vs 19-24000N/A3344-11.33
 

DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
It is hard to make a 2009 Crosby over 2024 McDavid for me

At ev
McDavid: 33 GF-21GA, 61.11GF%, 25 points
Crosby: 23GF-14GA, 62.16GF%, 21 points

ok, but the Oilers had their usual ridiculous 30% powerplay, lead by McDavid with 17 points on it, Crosby was second on his team with 10 pts, with a just fine 20% for a cup winner.

Even if you call it a tie at even strength, McDavid get the edge.

Do you have GF% and 5 on 5 possession numbers for McDavid's 2022 rounds?

I feel his numbers for that run (especially the first two rounds) are likely ridiculously good.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,352
5,919
Do you have GF% and 5 on 5 possession numbers for McDavid's 2022 rounds?

I feel his numbers for that run (especially the first two rounds) are likely ridiculously good.
First 2 rounds:


Incredible 71% GF with 17 minute of play, like Mack first 2 round.... not that special "Corsi" wise, was creating high scoring change a lot shooting (his team shooting 16% when he was on the ice)

Big minutes forward alone for less "noise":
 
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tabness

be a playa 🇵🇸
Apr 4, 2014
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@daver I believe you struggle in these sorts of explorations for two reasons.

First you have your conclusion in mind first and then try to analyze the data in a way to fit the conclusions. This in itself is not anything remarkable, we all do this, as we all wish to justify our positions, or not even going that far, we all wish to illustrate our opinions with an appeal to something more "objective".

However, where I believe it goes wrong (beyond a main issue that some people are simply into convincing others of their point of view way more than others) is that you in yourself seem to put a great epistemic and explanatory value on stats, and thus struggle with their reconciliation with your desired conclusions.

This leads to the various double standards/inconsistent application issues that people chirp you on, such as applying your arguments about two way play/additional context/timely scoring/scoring isn't everything team considerations/whatever to the old Toews/Datsyuk/whoever arguments way back when you were firmly on the side of Crosby and of course leveraged stats to back up your point of view.

(I am very sympathetic to less of a naive look at points and stats personally by the way and that is why I am in no rush to crown McDavid, or Crosby, as all that and a bag of chips)
 
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GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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He stepped up in the SCF after it was effectively over. Down 2 games in the series and 4-1 in the 3rd period of Game 3. Full credit to a dominant performance in Game 5 when given the opportunity but also recognition that three of his four points in Game 4 were meaningless. I cannot place his performance in the "Oilers lost despite McDavid's production" category when his lack of production helped dig the 3-0 hole. I don't think it ranks above Crosby's 2008 SCF.

I think if we wanted to rate their individual series it goes something like this:

1. Crosby vs. the Caps (arguably the best of the post 2005 lockout era)
2. McDavid vs. the Stars
3. Crosby vs. Caines
4. McDavid vs. the Kings
5. McDavid vs. the Cats/Crosby vs. Flyers
7. McDavid vs. the Nucks
8. Crosby vs. the WIngs
Only Daver can be so bias.

So basically it would have been better if McDavid went pointless in that 4-1 loss and not try to get his team within one goal.

I also love the continued idea that his points in games 4 and 5 were “meaningless” when he set a record while both were elimination games, but let’s leave that context out.

Also, Malkin was better against the Canes than Crosby. While both Malkin and Crosby were tied in points going into the finals

Malkin: 17-12-16-28
Crosby: 17-14-14-28

So for the 15th time, HOW is Crosbys ‘09 better than McDavids ‘24 through the first 3 rounds?…
 
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DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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Only Daver can be so bias.

So basically it would have been better if McDavid went pointless in that 4-1 loss and not try to get his team within one goal.

I also love the continued idea that his points in games 4 and 5 were “meaningless” when he set a record while both were elimination games, but let’s leave that context out.

Also, Malkin was better against the Canes than Crosby. While both Malkin and Crosby were tied in points going into the finals

Malkin: 17-12-16-28
Crosby: 17-14-14-28

So for the 15th time, HOW is Crosbys ‘09 better than McDavids ‘24 through the first 3 rounds?…

The idea that all of McDavid's points in Game Five were worthless makes no sense considering Perry's goal (that he set up with his signature play of the series) was the game-winning goal.

How can you have four worthless points in an elimination game that your team wins by two goals including a very late empty-netter? Lol.
 
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norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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The idea that all of McDavid's points in Game Five were worthless makes no sense considering Perry's goal (that he set up with his signature play of the series) was the game-winning goal.

How can you have four worthless points in an elimination game that your team wins by two goals including a very late empty-netter? Lol.
Because by dropping to 0-3 and then not winning game 7, everything in between is irrelevant. Or something...
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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South Of the Tank
Because by dropping to 0-3 and then not winning game 7, everything in between is irrelevant. Or something...
Winning forgives everything. It’s the same logic people use against McDavid.
-“he didn’t score in games 6 and 7.”
Neither did Crosby
-“he didn’t show up for game 7.”
Crosby hardly played in game 7
-“scored points in meaningless games.”
Games 4 and 5 were elimination games.
-“he only had 11 points in 7 games, ALL worthless”
Crosby went scoreless 5/7 games and only had 3 points.

Basically, Crosby won….so everything else is a moot point. Doesn’t matter if he wasn’t a factor in the series or didn’t score, or wasn’t as impactful…..he’s a “winner.” Basically everything Crosby jock riders love to use against McDavid, Crosby didn’t even achieve.

What is also hilarious is the mental gymnastics that go on when trying to justify his play…
-“he was taking the top match ups so other could score.”
-“he was doing OTHER things outside of scoring that made his team better.”
-“if his linemates were better, he would have had more points.”

Basically, when it’s Crosby, he does NO wrong. Always a winner. When it’s McDavid, it’s all his doing that his team didn’t win….and then put absurd standards on him that not even Crosby fulfilled.
 

DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
Winning forgives everything. It’s the same logic people use against McDavid.
-“he didn’t score in games 6 and 7.”
Neither did Crosby
-“he didn’t show up for game 7.”
Crosby hardly played in game 7
-“scored points in meaningless games.”
Games 4 and 5 were elimination games.
-“he only had 11 points in 7 games, ALL worthless”
Crosby went scoreless 5/7 games and only had 3 points.

Basically, Crosby won….so everything else is a moot point. Doesn’t matter if he wasn’t a factor in the series or didn’t score, or wasn’t as impactful…..he’s a “winner.” Basically everything Crosby jock riders love to use against McDavid, Crosby didn’t even achieve.

What is also hilarious is the mental gymnastics that go on when trying to justify his play…
-“he was taking the top match ups so other could score.”
-“he was doing OTHER things outside of scoring that made his team better.”
-“if his linemates were better, he would have had more points.”

Basically, when it’s Crosby, he does NO wrong. Always a winner. When it’s McDavid, it’s all his doing that his team didn’t win….and then put absurd standards on him that not even Crosby fulfilled.

A generation of hockey fans has grown up believing years and years of media hype and propaganda. Now that they've witnessed first-hand a talent who is at the very least equal to the poster boy for professional hockey for the last two decades, they seem to be incredulous. They didn't think this was possible, let alone so soon after his peak. They're resorting to some really dubious measures to try to discredit the heir apparent. There are reasonable arguments and then there are obvious double-standards and blatantly biased and unsubstantiated opinions being thrown around, and all this is making for an exhausting but somewhat fascinating and humorous experience.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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This does not help feeling old, reading people saying Crosby is some nostalgia google... people on the history board saw Lemieux-Gretzky, there was never an notion that a Crosby level talent would be impossible to come up....
 
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daver

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Crosby didn't play a two way game to any notable degree.

He has always played a 2-way game that is at least better than McDavid's to some degree. Does it elevate him above a superior offensive game? Not necessarily but it is certainly is relevant when comparing players with similar offensive resumes.

McDavid scored more and to my eyes was a more dynamic player and more of the focus in every game.

McDavid scored more? Their PPGs were almost identical. Putting aside the huge difference in goal totals, McDavid had four secondary PP assists vs. one for Crosby.

14 goals, including six game opening goals (an NHL record?) in 17 games isn't dynamic enough for you.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Crosby's series vs. the Caps isn't the clear best between the two?

And are you seriously saying that Crosby didn't have the focus of the other teams? That flies in the face of Wings sending out the best man-to-man defensive forward in the league and Top 5 all-time d-man to shadow Crosby on every shift.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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He has always played a 2-way game that is at least better than McDavid's to some degree. Does it elevate him above a superior offensive game? Not necessarily but it is certainly is relevant when comparing players with similar offensive resumes.



McDavid scored more? Their PPGs were almost identical. Putting aside the huge difference in goal totals, McDavid had four secondary PP assists vs. one for Crosby.

14 goals, including six game opening goals (an NHL record?) in 17 games isn't dynamic enough for you.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Crosby's series vs. the Caps isn't the clear best between the two?

And are you seriously saying that Crosby didn't have the focus of the other teams? That flies in the face of Wings sending out the best man-to-man defensive forward in the league and Top 5 all-time d-man to shadow Crosby on every shift.
I disagree that he played a two way game to any degree more than McDavid did in 2024. So no, it doesn't elevate him to a level with McDavid's superior offensive and all around playoff performance.

I don't care about Crosby's goal total or that McDavid, the focal point of the Oilers' power play, had some secondary assists.

I do not recall commenting on any individual series outside of the finals, so I guess I am not seriously trying to argue anything about that.

Detroit definitely focused hard on Crosby, and sadly due to injuries didn't have the personnel to give Malkin the attention he deserved. I do not believe that Crosby was the focus throughout the playoffs to the degree that McDavid was. Sometimes Malkin took the lead, and despite people overrating his playoff performances Draisaitl was never in that spot.

There is no argument that is going to get people to put Crosby's top single playoff performance up there with McDavid's 2024 playoffs unless that person is desperate to believe it in the first place.
 

daver

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5. Nope. McDavid played the most dominant hockey through 3 rounds by anyone not named Greztky or Lemieux in 2022.

And Draisaitl was one point behind and was in 23 of McDavid's 32 points (69%). McDavid's Colorado series had a whiff of his SCF, a lot of his points came when it was too late.

Yes, Malkin also had 28 points but was in on only 4 of Crosby's 28 points (14%). Crosby's ability to carry a line of significantly lower talented forwards in comparison to McDavid created the depth that the Oilers lacked in 2022 to go farther than they did. You would be hard pressed to find a Cup winner in NHL history that was less talented than the 2009 Pens were besides Crosby and Malkin.

As others mentioned, Gilmour in 93/94 was great, as was Sakic in 1996.
 
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daver

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I disagree that he played a two way game to any degree more than McDavid did in 2024. So no, it doesn't elevate him to a level with McDavid's superior offensive and all around playoff performance.

Superior offensive how? Draisaitl was viewed as the superior player thru 2 rounds with his all around play while McDavid was being viewed as not as good as his numbers indicated. It was Draisatil who stepped up in Game 7 in round 2. Crosby's Game 7 against the Caps is legendary.

Full marks to McDavid for stepping up in the Dallas series but it is revisionist thinking that McDavid was nearly as dominant as he was in 2022 thru 3 rounds.

But then I would argue that McDavid in 2024 was more impressive than 2022 in one way. After the 1st round and the first few games of the 2nd round, he played a lot more time separate from Draisaitl and produced. This was a key to them progressing to the SCF.
 

daver

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It is hard to make a 2009 Crosby over 2024 McDavid for me

At ev
McDavid: 33 GF-21GA, 61.11GF%, 25 points
Crosby: 23GF-14GA, 62.16GF%, 21 points

ok, but the Oilers had their usual ridiculous 30% powerplay, lead by McDavid with 17 points on it, Crosby was second on his team with 10 pts, with a just fine 20% for a cup winner.

Even if you call it a tie at even strength, McDavid get the edge.

Is this the whole playoffs or through three rounds?
 

daver

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As far as this year's SCF: I see people harping on when points were scored. McDavid 2024 and Crosby 2009 followed basically the same pattern in the SCF: Starting and ending quietly in terms of scoring and doing their damage (or the bulk of it) in the middle of the series. The difference is McDavid scored a lot more and Draisaitl was MIA/injured whereas Malkin was outstanding. That's it. The fact that PIT won and EDM lost has nothing to do with anything like leadership or intangibles from the respective Captains.

I also disagree that Crosby's run in 2018 is as good as McDavid's run in 2022. Crosby did a lot of his damage against Philadelphia and then wasn't as good against a much better team in Washington. Crosby had a natural hattrick that in Game One that made the score go from 4-0 to 7-0 (I love how McDavid's points are worthless unless the score is tied or within one goal, but the same doesn't apply to Crosby) and then had four points (including two secondary assists) in a 5-1 Game Three win. McDavid was simply better than Crosby in round two. Also, he faced teams that were third (CGY) and eighth (LA) in goals against in the season. Crosby played teams that were 15th (WSH) and 16th (PHI) in goals against in the season. For that matter, the Senators were 19th in goal against in 2010.

So the timing of McDavid's scoring in the SCF doesn't matter but the timing of Crosby's scoring in 2018 does matter.

How is this not a double standard?
 

daver

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1. They are close IMO. Crosby was scoring more goals, but giving more defensively. McDavid was creating playmaking offense at an all time level, and playing better defensive hockey, all while suffering from a core muscle injury of some kind that limited his shot. Edge McDavid through 3 rounds.

How so? Courtesy of MadLuke:

At ev
McDavid: 33 GF-21GA, 61.11GF%, 25 points
Crosby: 23GF-14GA, 62.16GF%, 21 points
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Superior offensive how? Draisaitl was viewed as the superior player thru 2 rounds with his all around play while McDavid was being viewed as not as good as his numbers indicated. It was Draisatil who stepped up in Game 7 in round 2. Crosby's Game 7 against the Caps is legendary.

Full marks to McDavid for stepping up in the Dallas series but it is revisionist thinking that McDavid was nearly as dominant as he was in 2022 thru 3 rounds.

But then I would argue that McDavid in 2024 was more impressive than 2022 in one way. After the 1st round and the first few games of the 2nd round, he played a lot more time separate from Draisaitl and produced. This was a key to them progressing to the SCF.
Call me crazy but I think that scoring a lot more points as well as comfortably leading the playoffs in scoring indicates a superior offensive performance. Draisaitl has been way overrated in the playoffs but that's for a different thread.

McDavid's 2024 playoffs performance was much stronger than any of Crosby's playoff runs. The performances are not on the same level.
 

daver

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Call me crazy but I think that scoring a lot more points as well as comfortably leading the playoffs in scoring indicates a superior offensive performance. Draisaitl has been way overrated in the playoffs but that's for a different thread.

We are discussing their performances through three rounds. (#1 in the OP). McDavid scored three more points in one more game than Crosby did in 2009. So, no, he was statistically more impressive offensively from a statistical perspective.



He had a three point lead on Draisaitl with 15 point shares (48% of his points) with Draisaitl vs. four of 28 for Crosby with Malkin. Crosby was a plus 12, McDavid was a plus 7.

And if points and leading in scoring are the be all, end all, then Crosby's 2018 run deserves more attention.
 

daver

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First 2 rounds:


Incredible 71% GF with 17 minute of play, like Mack first 2 round.... not that special "Corsi" wise, was creating high scoring change a lot shooting (his team shooting 16% when he was on the ice)

Big minutes forward alone for less "noise":

Here is Crosby's in 2018:

 

Matsun

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I think Crosby vs the Caps is overrated. It's definetly the most iconic series in a long time, but just because he is going up against his rival doesn't mean it's harder for him to produce. The Caps and OV were not excatly going to make it hard for him to score that series.
 

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