Softest team in the NHL

[iamitter]

Yeah, well that's true. Martin can skate though. He can do a number of little things. He's an effective defensive player and penalty killer. He will put up some points. He's a bigger body than Callahan--a little bit stronger IMO and a pretty good fighter. Very good at tracking puck carriers down--that comes with being able to skate. IMO he edges out Prust as a player--bigger, better skater. Prust IMO is a slightly better fighter. If I had to choose I'd take Martin. I think he led the league in hits last year.

If he's willing to drop the gloves, at that point unless it becomes an injury risk, I don't care how good of a fighter they are. Losing a fight can ignite your teammates just as much as winning a fight.

When it comes to hockey, fighting ability (not willingness) is about as important to me as whether or not you tuck your jersey in.

I'd rather have a 5 goal scorer that loses every fight than a 4 goal scorer than wins every fight, all other things being equal.

 

[eco's bones]

I think Martin has the potential to be a good complimentary top-6 forward very soon. Similar to David Clarkson actually except he is a better skater. He is just a massive pain in the ass to play against because he finishes every check.

Martin is relentless. You can depend on him doing his thing game in game out. I would love the Rangers getting this guy.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Martin is a good hockey player. He is exactly what the Rangers could use IMO.

Maybe Boomer's daughter can put in a good word?

 

[eco's bones]

If he's willing to drop the gloves, at that point unless it becomes an injury risk, I don't care how good of a fighter they are. Losing a fight can ignite your teammates just as much as winning a fight.

When it comes to hockey, fighting ability (not willingness) is about as important to me as whether or not you tuck your jersey in.

I'd rather have a 5 goal scorer that loses every fight than a 4 goal scorer than wins every fight, all other things being equal.

Someone gets shellacked it does matter. One team is not going to get any lift from that. More or less even between more or less two equals then okay---otherwise you're always better off winning. Prust was an example. He started a lot of games off fighting someone and usually won--and that usually got the team firing on all cylinders.

 

[NYR Viper]

I agree. You either have to draft these guys (incredibly difficult to do, I feel it's really hard to predict if these types of players can make it to the NHL. Hell it can be argued that a high end type of this player just got drafted 9th by Vancouver) or trade for them. Can't overpay for them as a UFA and then put them in a position to fail/not meet expectations (ala what will happen to Clarkson for the next 7 years imo).

Exactly. And they are hard to predict because a lot of these "kids" being drafted high at 18 are already much larger than their opponents. Look at someone like Kyle Beach. He was a mean, tough SOB and still is, but his play hasn't progressed. Part of that is injuries but part of it is that he was much larger and stronger than everyone in juniors.

Skating the key component for me. That is the reason I like McIlrath so much. Not only is he a devastating fighter, but the kid moves really well, not only for his size, but for anyone and he will only get better as he continues to strengthen his core and lower body.

 

[Emptyvoid]

Exactly. And they are hard to predict because a lot of these "kids" being drafted high at 18 are already much larger than their opponents. Look at someone like Kyle Beach. He was a mean, tough SOB and still is, but his play hasn't progressed. Part of that is injuries but part of it is that he was much larger and stronger than everyone in juniors.

Skating the key component for me. That is the reason I like McIlrath so much. Not only is he a devastating fighter, but the kid moves really well, not only for his size, but for anyone and he will only get better as he continues to strengthen his core and lower body.

Someone made the point recently, I think it was ODC, how much more important skating has become in the NHL and that if you can skate and basically do one more thing well, you can make it in the NHL. So I agree, if you're a tough S.O.B and can skate well, then those guys probably the best chances of making it.

 

[iamitter]

Someone gets shellacked it does matter. One team is not going to get any lift from that. More or less even between more or less two equals then okay---otherwise you're always better off winning. Prust was an example. He started a lot of games off fighting someone and usually won--and that usually got the team firing on all cylinders.

When your team is down and a teammate who knows he's going to lose is willing to fight - that doesn't get you riled up/firing on all cylinders?

 

[Emptyvoid]

When your team is down and a teammate who knows he's going to lose is willing to fight - that doesn't get you riled up/firing on all cylinders?

Not nearly as much if he had won the fight.

Edit: That's not to say that they can't get riled up by losing, I just feel winning a fight would give a bigger boost. How much it riles a team up, from a lost or win, really depends on the composition of the team.

 

[NYR Viper]

Martin is relentless. You can depend on him doing his thing game in game out. I would love the Rangers getting this guy.

Yep, the Pens saw it in the playoffs. He is exactly the type of player you hate to face over a long series. Hence why I want more of them in the bottom-6.

Martin is a good hockey player. He is exactly what the Rangers could use IMO.

Maybe Boomer's daughter can put in a good word?

Are they dating?

Someone gets shellacked it does matter. One team is not going to get any lift from that. More or less even between more or less two equals then okay---otherwise you're always better off winning. Prust was an example. He started a lot of games off fighting someone and usually won--and that usually got the team firing on all cylinders.

Not sure I agree. I remember Boyle fought Shelley a couple of years ago when Boogaard was out and he got hammered pretty good. The team got a huge rise from that. Montreal has always used this to their advantage with their smaller teams. Like when Gorges would fight Lucic or whatnot. They didn't win a ton of those fights, but just the fact that a guy like Gorges would stand up to Lucic is enough to get your team going.

Again though, you need multiple guys who will do that and I would rather not have Girardi or McDonagh doing it.

 

[iamitter]

Yep, the Pens saw it in the playoffs. He is exactly the type of player you hate to face over a long series. Hence why I want more of them in the bottom-6.



Are they dating?



Not sure I agree. I remember Boyle fought Shelley a couple of years ago when Boogaard was out and he got hammered pretty good. The team got a huge rise from that. Montreal has always used this to their advantage with their smaller teams. Like when Gorges would fight Lucic or whatnot. They didn't win a ton of those fights, but just the fact that a guy like Gorges would stand up to Lucic is enough to get your team going.

Again though, you need multiple guys who will do that and I would rather not have Girardi or McDonagh doing it.

I didn't mean G or McD. I mean I don't care too much whether Dorsett wins every fight or loses every fight. Prust lost a lot. Doesn't mean our team didn't get a boost from it.

 

[NYR Viper]

I didn't mean G or McD. I mean I don't care too much whether Dorsett wins every fight or loses every fight. Prust lost a lot. Doesn't mean our team didn't get a boost from it.

Exactly. Win or lose, teams get more engaged after a fight. It gets the blood flowing.

 

[iamitter]

I don't know why we need that many people who will drop the gloves though. Once we have McIlrath, one forward and one defenseman who will regularly drop the gloves is more than enough for me. I don't see the point of going specifically out to get more, especially when there's a few others on the roster who will drop in a pinch if really required (Boyle, Girardi, McDonagh, Callahan, Nash, J. Moore, Pouliot, Brassard, Staal). They won't fight often, but do you really need more? We don't need to have more than half the roster be able to fight and 1/6 do so regularly.

McIlrath will get the Lucic treatment soon enough anyway. Nobody will want to fight him. Just having him will be more than enough.

 

[NYR Viper]

I don't know why we need that many people who will drop the gloves though. Once we have McIlrath, one forward and one defenseman who will regularly drop the gloves is more than enough for me. I don't see the point of going specifically out to get more, especially when there's a few others on the roster who will drop in a pinch if really required (Boyle, Girardi, McDonagh, Callahan, Nash). They won't fight often, but do you really need more? We don't need to have more than half the roster be able to fight and 1/6 do so regularly.

McIlrath will get the Lucic treatment soon enough anyway. Nobody will want to fight him. Just having him will be more than enough.

You don't want to have McIlrath fighting everyone and anyone. The idea would be for him to play his game and pick his spots on when to go. I think at least 1 more forward like Dorsett would do wonders. It's not just about dropping the gloves, it's about being difficult to play against and getting the team ready for the playoffs.

Look at Chris Neil. Most teams have to game plan for him because of the way he lays devastating hits. It makes d-men keep their heads up and move the puck faster than they want because they have to be aware. Those hits add up over a playoff series.

Prust was the same way when he was in NY. It's that confidence or arrogance, whichever, that allows them to take some liberties because they can back it up. And in turn, the guys around them, Boyle, Smith, etc. play a bit bigger and more aggressive because they see their teammate/linemate getting away with it.

 

[iamitter]

Hell, our roster as currently constructed looks like it has at least one or two people on the ice at all times who have dropped the gloves in the past when necessary.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a Clowe or Lucic type player, but with our roster I wouldn't even care if they never fought. I'd like them for a top 6 heavy hitting presence.

 

[NYR Viper]

Hell, our roster as currently constructed looks like it has at least one or two people on the ice at all times who have dropped the gloves in the past when necessary.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a Clowe or Lucic type player, but with our roster I wouldn't even care if they never fought. I'd like them for a top 6 heavy hitting presence.

Nash, McDonagh and Callahan should not fight. Same with Girardi. Not their game/injury concerns. Boyle will do it which is a good thing. I am not asking for the moon. Pouliot will drop the gloves if need be as well which was a good addition.

 

[iamitter]

You don't want to have McIlrath fighting everyone and anyone. The idea would be for him to play his game and pick his spots on when to go. I think at least 1 more forward like Dorsett would do wonders. It's not just about dropping the gloves, it's about being difficult to play against and getting the team ready for the playoffs.

Look at Chris Neil. Most teams have to game plan for him because of the way he lays devastating hits. It makes d-men keep their heads up and move the puck faster than they want because they have to be aware. Those hits add up over a playoff series.

Prust was the same way when he was in NY. It's that confidence or arrogance, whichever, that allows them to take some liberties because they can back it up. And in turn, the guys around them, Boyle, Smith, etc. play a bit bigger and more aggressive because they see their teammate/linemate getting away with it.

McIlrath won't be fighting anyone and everyone. More likely than not, he's not the one who will be picking his spots. Who the hell wants to fight Lucic? The undertaker won't have many takers except for goons like Orr and I don't want him fighting them to prove himself. **** that kind of hockey.

I added a few more names who have fought and even forgot Falk. Frankly, I'd like another hitter like that too. But I could really care less whether or not they drop the gloves.

I rarely even pay attention to goon v goon fights now. Staged fights taking irrelevant players off the ice don't interest me (I'm even including the Thorntons here - if your team wants you regularly fighting, they don't miss your presence on the ice enough to care and I certainly won't). If I see Staal v Iginla, though, I'll pay attention. It means someone is taking liberties. Two players who are valuable to their teams fighting and willing to take themselves off the ice? It means something happened that is worth that sacrifice. Willingness to drop the gloves for your team means a lot. I don't really care much for players that have fighting as one of their major job components though. If Lucic or Ovechkin takes liberties with McDonagh, I'd like someone to fight them (that last game against the Caps disgusted me), but neither of them are going to fight a Dorsett or Thornton. If Lucic hits McDonagh or Ovechkin hits Richards, Dorsett fighting Thornton or Erskine doesn't do anything for me. The players who do the actual damage don't pay for what they did. For Lucic or OV to drop the gloves, someone who drops with them has to be a valuable player, too.

That's just why I don't see the need for another bottom 6 fighter. Who cares if they're there or not? They're going to be fighting the same people anyway.

 

[Dagoon44]

We had a player who fought ovie we trade him. We had a player who fought Lucic we lost him as a free agent..I am starting to agree the roster turn over is the issue

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

We had a player who fought ovie we trade him. We had a player who fought Lucic we lost him as a free agent..I am starting to agree the roster turn over is the issue

It is. But it has little to nothing to do with fighting.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

We had a player who fought ovie we trade him. We had a player who fought Lucic we lost him as a free agent..I am starting to agree the roster turn over is the issue

The fact that they fought players means nothing really on whether or not they're soft. It's how they carry themselves and conduct with other players, and not just fighting. However, roster turnover is really amplifying it.

 

[iamitter]

We had a player who fought ovie we trade him. We had a player who fought Lucic we lost him as a free agent..I am starting to agree the roster turn over is the issue

Roster turnover is a huge issue; what that does for fighting on this roster isn't.

Give me a team who hits and forechecks with one top 6 player/top 4 D who can scare/intimidate and fight when liberties are taken (McIlrath works if he gets to be that good defensively) and I'm happy. If we have no other people who fight on our roster unless dire circumstances (Staal, Moore, McD, G, Nash, Boyle), I'm totally fine with that.

If we get three cheap shots against us in a season, I want three fights with an instigator penalty taken, too. I want to see that guy suffer. And if that's all the fights that season, that's cool, too. I want to watch hockey being played, not a staged Rupp v. Thornton. If you have to talk it over with the other player and both drop your gloves at the same time, I could care less about it. Go make a new sport called ice boxing.

 

[NYR Viper]

Jared Boll is a UFA at the end of this season. He would be a good addition.

Detroit has Tootoo who they would like top move. I wonder if they would retain some salary to move him. He makes 1.9 million for this year and next. Would they keep 750k? Would you take him at just over 1 million for this year and next?

Montreal has Moen. Would they retain some salary to move him? 3 years left @ 1.85. LWer.

LA has 5 RFA's to sign. Clifford, Martinez, Nolan, Lewis and Muzzin. ~5.2 million in cap space. Would they move Clifford for the right deal?

STL has a TON of forwards. Would they move Reaves?

 

[Orr Nightmare]

Jared Boll is a UFA at the end of this season. He would be a good addition.

Detroit has Tootoo who they would like top move. I wonder if they would retain some salary to move him. He makes 1.9 million for this year and next. Would they keep 750k? Would you take him at just over 1 million for this year and next?

Montreal has Moen. Would they retain some salary to move him? 3 years left @ 1.85. LWer.

LA has 5 RFA's to sign. Clifford, Martinez, Nolan, Lewis and Muzzin. ~5.2 million in cap space. Would they move Clifford for the right deal?

STL has a TON of forwards. Would they move Reaves?

It amazes me how some teams have an over abundance of these grinders and we have a few or none at all.

Their are a bunch of guys on here who say I love goons, I do...but that wont win you hockey games...I understand that but I am greedy, I would like it all...like in '94 when they had Kocur.

However, I would pick a Kyle Clifford, Jordan Nolan, Dwight King, Chris Neil, etc...over a Brian McGrattan or Orr any day of the week.

When the Rangers claimed Orr from Boston @ the time...they did it because the Flyers abused Jagr.

The Rangers fail to draft the Cliffords or Nolan's or King's year after year...that is all I am asking for....these guys are hard to find when you never draft them...but other teams seem to find them all the time.

 

[iamitter]

It amazes me how some teams have an over abundance of these grinders and we have a few or none at all.

Their are a bunch of guys on here who say I love goons, I do...but that wont win you hockey games...I understand that but I am greedy, I would like it all...like in '94 when they had Kocur.

However, I would pick a Kyle Clifford, Jordan Nolan, Dwight King, Chris Neil, etc...over a Brian McGrattan or Orr any day of the week.

When the Rangers claimed Orr from Boston @ the time...they did it because the Flyers abused Jagr.

The Rangers fail to draft the Cliffords or Nolan's or King's year after year...that is all I am asking for....these guys are hard to find when you never draft them...but other teams seem to find them all the time.

You made a point of this earlier using 20/20 hindsight in a draft, which was a ludicrous proposition.

Often times the "grinders" you are talking about were prolific scorers in whatever league they were in and had to make do by using their physical presence in the NHL because their skills weren't high enough. Very few players were physical grinders picked up late whose skills developed later. For every grinder picked late that developed skills, 100's didn't. I'd rather we focus on picking up undiscovered talent in small places in later rounds (Hagelin, Fast) and hoping they become impact players rather than picking up players known for their physicality and hoping they can learn to play hockey. It's easier for Hagelin to become a complete player and check players than for unknown goon to suddenly learn how to play hockey. We have gotten plenty of talent in later rounds. It just so happens that they are not bottom 6 grinders who drop the gloves.

 

[Orr Nightmare]

You made a point of this earlier using 20/20 hindsight in a draft, which was a ludicrous proposition.

Often times the "grinders" you are talking about were prolific scorers in whatever league they were in and had to make do by using their physical presence in the NHL because their skills weren't high enough. Very few players were physical grinders picked up late whose skills developed later. For every grinder picked late that developed skills, 100's didn't. I'd rather we focus on picking up undiscovered talent in small places in later rounds (Hagelin, Fast) and hoping they become impact players rather than picking up players known for their physicality and hoping they can learn to play hockey. It's easier for Hagelin to become a complete player and check players than for unknown goon to suddenly learn how to play hockey. We have gotten plenty of talent in later rounds. It just so happens that they are not bottom 6 grinders who drop the gloves.

Ok, so King and Nolan are goons? I want them to draft size and skill but you can interpet that anyway you want...for every Hagelin and Fast there are 100 skilled guys that don't make it either...so, really your point means nothing.

 

[chosen]

Someone gets shellacked it does matter. One team is not going to get any lift from that. More or less even between more or less two equals then okay---otherwise you're always better off winning. Prust was an example. He started a lot of games off fighting someone and usually won--and that usually got the team firing on all cylinders.

I asked this earlier, but is there any data that's the notion that winning a fight helps in the final score?

This is often expressed but I have no idea if it is true. I could see it helping for the next shift. Maybe.

Seems like a belief that cannot be verified or disproved. Would be interesting to find out.