Softest team in the NHL

[NYR Viper]

The point I was making was less about you loving goons, and more about you completely lying about what happened with Mashinter.

Mashinter looked decent on quite a few shifts in the offensive zone. He moved pretty well, he was able to control the puck as well and actually looked to make a play.

Defensively, it looked like he was a bit slow in recognizing where to go with the puck and realizing that NHL players are a bit faster and more skilled than in the AHL. I was a bit disappointed in his lack of physical play as he looked to turn away from quite a few checks.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I do believe he's scapegoated a bit too much but he absolutely should take some blame for his "collapse down low and give d-men all the room in the world to work with" system that simultaneously destroyed any offensive creativity we had.

Yet Marion Gabrik had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Rick Nash was on pace for his best season in years playing for Torts.

Yet Derek Stepan has improved every year playing for Torts.

Yet Ryan Callahan had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brandon Dubinsky had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brian Boyle had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Derrick Brassard played some of his most consistent hockey of his career playing for Torts.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Mashinter looked decent on quite a few shifts in the offensive zone. He moved pretty well, he was able to control the puck as well and actually looked to make a play.

Defensively, it looked like he was a bit slow in recognizing where to go with the puck and realizing that NHL players are a bit faster and more skilled than in the AHL. I was a bit disappointed in his lack of physical play as he looked to turn away from quite a few checks.

I thought his skating for was sub-par. Too slow and agile to make hits and get involved.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yet Marion Gabrik had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Rick Nash was on pace for his best season in years playing for Torts.

Yet Derek Stepan has improved every year playing for Torts.

Yet Ryan Callahan had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brandon Dubinsky had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brian Boyle had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Derrick Brassard played some of his most consistent hockey of his career playing for Torts.

This team, during Sather's entire 13 year tenure, has never had a strong enough core of forwards 1-12 to be a top notch on the offensive side of the puck. Plenty of players, as you astutely pointed out, were successful here -- but that was rarely seen as a 12 man unit. I find it unbelievable that so many people think that we can coach our way out of this problem.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

This team, during Sather's entire 13 year tenure, has never had a strong enough core of forwards 1-12 to be a top notch on the offensive side of the puck. Plenty of players, as you astutely pointed out, were successful here -- but that was rarely seen as a 12 man unit. I find it unbelievable that so many people think that we can coach our way out of this problem.

Well, that's part of my point. These are all in isolated years and individual performances, by and large.

 

[Unpredictable1]

I guess time will tell, but I blame a lot on the forwards for that collapsing play. A lot of the forwards on this roster cheat offensively and disregard defensive play.

We didn't watch the same team last year. The collapsing down low I thought stifled a lot of our forwards' ability to get up ice quicker once we gained possession. But I would rather not have Richards and Nash down low blocking shots.

The whole style seems to have worn down the team...

Off topic, is there any other team section on this board that has as much in-fighting as ours? Some are like enemies in here.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I thought his skating for was sub-par. Too slow and agile to make hits and get involved.

Agreed. Mashinter was a bit of a stiff - and theres no place in today's game for stiffs.

 

[Inferno]

the only issue i have with torts is his philosophy of having the wingers drop down and get into shooting lanes to block shots rather than challenge the defenseman with the puck.

i just think it gives skilled d-men way too much time to think about and do whatever the frak they want.

i had really no other problems with him. the pp situation is debateable, i think the guy tried everything he could, it was one of those things where it started to snowball and kept getting worse and worse and worse and....confidence is a tricky thing.

tactically though, i think torts is totally underappreciated.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

This team, during Sather's entire 13 year tenure, has never had a strong enough core of forwards 1-12 to be a top notch on the offensive side of the puck. Plenty of players, as you astutely pointed out, were successful here -- but that was rarely seen as a 12 man unit. I find it unbelievable that so many people think that we can coach our way out of this problem.

Boy, ain't that the truth though!

 

[Kershaw]

We didn't watch the same team last year. The collapsing down low I thought stifled a lot of our forwards' ability to get up ice quicker once we gained possession. But I would rather not have Richards and Nash down low blocking shots.

The whole style seems to have worn down the team...

Fair enough, but I respectfully disagree. A lot of the faults come from forwards as well because their lack of ability to move the puck up the ice. I thought only Nash, Zuccarello, Hagelin and Stepan could do it consistently. The rest of the forwards really make a mess and turn the puck over a lot to the opposing dmen trying the bank off the boards passing.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

How is AV going to help in that regard? Canucks fans say AVs biggest flaw is sitting on one goal leads. Your only as good as your talent level on the roster.

Right on the money! Let's face facts, our roster has been flawed just about every year of "The Teflon GM's" tenure and bringing in AV isn't going to change a blessed thing.

There are fans who post here who will have you believe that AV is the second coming of "Scotty Bowman" when in reality, he is just another coach who couldn't win a Stanley Cup with a 3-2 lead in the final with a team way more talented than the one he is inheriting here.

I can't wait to see his reaction when he looks down the bench and he sees no Sedin twins or Ryan Kesslers to put out on the ice!

 

[Drewbackatu*]

My problem with Torts and his favoritism crap was that his extended to not putting players in the best position to succeed. Yeah there were games where Gabby sucked but moving him to the 4th line didn't solve ANYTHING. And with Kreider, people say he should earn his spot, but I see it as a catch 22. He's a player that has to be in the top 6 to succeed, burying him in the bottom 6 doesn't solve anything and doesn't make him a better hockey player. Torts did that with established veterans and that always annoyed me about him. As a coach, you ALWAYS put your players in the best position they can be in, you can't set them up for failure (like putting Haley on a line with Stepan....?).

On that end of it, I agree with you but most coaches pull that experimental line switching nonsense when a player has run into a brickwall production wise.

In so far as Kreider is concerned, I have no problem with how he was handled by Torts whatsoever. Kreider is a player who has relied on his physical gifts thru prep school and college and hasn't alway either worked hard emough or smart enough at the professional level.

Now that the roster is so devoid of goal scoring, he is in a position where he has to produce 15-20 goals this year, no excuses!

Now entering his final year of ELC, he better have finally figured it out or he'll be somewhere else next year and will go down as yet another draft bust!

 

[TheDirtyH]

Yet Marion Gabrik had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Rick Nash was on pace for his best season in years playing for Torts.

Yet Derek Stepan has improved every year playing for Torts.

Yet Ryan Callahan had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brandon Dubinsky had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Brian Boyle had his best season playing for Torts.

Yet Derrick Brassard played some of his most consistent hockey of his career playing for Torts.

I would personally chalk those up to other variables more than Torts--the main reason is our average goals for per game under Torts in the playoffs...

Gaborik has maybe his healthiest seasons in NY and was in his prime years.

Nash seemed invigorated by a new market, not to mention the weaker competition in the East helped pad the stats a bit (how many of his goals were against Philly and Tampa?)

Stepan is a young talented player, I would hope he would be improving at this point in his career.

Callahan got to split the ice with Richards much of that 11 season, and managed to keep himself mostly healthy.

Dubinsky also scored 8(?) goals for us a year ago. He stepped up when were beaten down by injuries.

Boyle? See Dubinsky. How many Rangers fans now want his ass out.

And I heard Brassard say that his play had much more to do with the fans than the coach, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

Torts is a great coach but even he says offense isn't really in his practice plans.

 

[Callagraves]

I would personally chalk those up to other variables more than Torts--the main reason is our average goals for per game under Torts in the playoffs...

Gaborik has maybe his healthiest seasons in NY and was in his prime years.

Nash seemed invigorated by a new market, not to mention the weaker competition in the East helped pad the stats a bit (how many of his goals were against Philly and Tampa?)

Stepan is a young talented player, I would hope he would be improving at this point in his career.

Callahan got to split the ice with Richards much of that 11 season, and managed to keep himself mostly healthy.

Dubinsky also scored 8(?) goals for us a year ago. He stepped up when were beaten down by injuries.

Boyle? See Dubinsky. How many Rangers fans now want his ass out.

And I heard Brassard say that his play had much more to do with the fans than the coach, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

Torts is a great coach but even he says offense isn't really in his practice plans.

My god this myth continues to grow.

First it was Torts saying he doesn't coach the offense, he lets his players try to be creative. He set up offensive strategies, but his quote was about not setting plays, not trying to tell his offensive guys where to put the puck.

Then it was "Torts doesn't pay care about offense"

Somehow it became "The Rangers don't practice any offense"


I mean really, guys. An NHL coach, a winner, a Jack Adams finalist and some people honestly believe they didn't spend just as much time practicing offense as every other team out there.

 

[haveandare]

My problem with Torts and his favoritism crap was that his extended to not putting players in the best position to succeed. Yeah there were games where Gabby sucked but moving him to the 4th line didn't solve ANYTHING. And with Kreider, people say he should earn his spot, but I see it as a catch 22. He's a player that has to be in the top 6 to succeed, burying him in the bottom 6 doesn't solve anything and doesn't make him a better hockey player. Torts did that with established veterans and that always annoyed me about him. As a coach, you ALWAYS put your players in the best position they can be in, you can't set them up for failure (like putting Haley on a line with Stepan....?).

Gabby moving to the fourth line wasn't to get him going, it was to give his minutes to a player who might actually do something with them.

If Kreider can't hack the far easier role of playing bottom 6 and just not being a defensive catastrophe, he probably also can't/couldn't handle the far more difficult role of playing top 6 on a Torts team.

I don't think Torts set anyone up for failure. He made people earn ice time. There's a huge, huge difference between the two and I think making players earn ice is a good way to go about coaching. When you hand people things they don't deserve they get used to it and it stunts work ethic.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

And I heard Brassard say that his play had much more to do with the fans than the coach, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

LOL.

You may have just given Sather an idea for his next scapegoating trick. Replace the fans!

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

My god this myth continues to grow.

Speaking of myths growing, how about the one where the coach will be able to unleash some sort of offensive machine when the roster doesn't contain players of that sort.

Renney was holding back the offense (and lost the team) . Torts was going to take the constraints off. Then Torts was holding back the offense (and lost the team). Now AV is going to foster this offensive juggernaut.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Speaking of myths growing, how about the one where the coach will be able to unleash some sort of offensive machine when the roster doesn't contain players of that sort.

Renney was holding back the offense (and lost the team) . Torts was going to take the constraints off. Then Torts was holding back the offense (and lost the team). Now AV is going to foster this offensive juggernaut.

Reality sets in when you're actually the one standing behind that bench.

 

[Callagraves]

Speaking of myths growing, how about the one where the coach will be able to unleash some sort of offensive machine when the roster doesn't contain players of that sort.

Renney was holding back the offense (and lost the team) . Torts was going to take the constraints off. Then Torts was holding back the offense (and lost the team). Now AV is going to foster this offensive juggernaut.

It's much easier, faster, and fan-friendly to blame the coach. He's not a Ranger.

Torts had a pretty damn awful season, but it's not like the team gave him any help.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It's much easier, faster, and fan-friendly to blame the coach. He's not a Ranger.

Torts had a pretty damn awful season, but it's not like the team gave him any help.

It's easier and faster because its one guy, not an entire team.


And in a pretty damn awful season, the coach still won a playoff series.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

I would personally chalk those up to other variables more than Torts--the main reason is our average goals for per game under Torts in the playoffs...

Gaborik has maybe his healthiest seasons in NY and was in his prime years.

Nash seemed invigorated by a new market, not to mention the weaker competition in the East helped pad the stats a bit (how many of his goals were against Philly and Tampa?)

Stepan is a young talented player, I would hope he would be improving at this point in his career.

Callahan got to split the ice with Richards much of that 11 season, and managed to keep himself mostly healthy.

Dubinsky also scored 8(?) goals for us a year ago. He stepped up when were beaten down by injuries.

Boyle? See Dubinsky. How many Rangers fans now want his ass out.

And I heard Brassard say that his play had much more to do with the fans than the coach, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

Torts is a great coach but even he says offense isn't really in his practice plans.

That remark Tort's made was tongue in cheek. I can't believe so many fans have swallowed it whole as the
gospel! Look, the bottom line is this;

"Torts is hands down the best coach this franchise has had since Roger Neilson(yes, that includes "Psycho Mike" Keenan who was manuevering his way out in Jan, '94!) and whose coaching reign had run it's course here."

All coaches are hired to be fired at some point!

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Speaking of myths growing, how about the one where the coach will be able to unleash some sort of offensive machine when the roster doesn't contain players of that sort.

Renney was holding back the offense (and lost the team) . Torts was going to take the constraints off. Then Torts was holding back the offense (and lost the team). Now AV is going to foster this offensive juggernaut.

I would say this Fall could be very eye-opening. But I'm not sure all of those eyes really want to be opened.

It's much more fun to take our hopes and wishes and pencil the Rangers in as a top-10 offense with zero defensive trade offs.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

My god this myth continues to grow.

First it was Torts saying he doesn't coach the offense, he lets his players try to be creative. He set up offensive strategies, but his quote was about not setting plays, not trying to tell his offensive guys where to put the puck.

Then it was "Torts doesn't pay care about offense"

Somehow it became "The Rangers don't practice any offense"


I mean really, guys. An NHL coach, a winner, a Jack Adams finalist and some people honestly believe they didn't spend just as much time practicing offense as every other team out there.

The good thing about that line it makes it easy to tell who knows nothing about the Rangers and/or hockey.

 

[Kershaw]

Gabby moving to the fourth line wasn't to get him going, it was to give his minutes to a player who might actually do something with them.

If Kreider can't hack the far easier role of playing bottom 6 and just not being a defensive catastrophe, he probably also can't/couldn't handle the far more difficult role of playing top 6 on a Torts team.

I don't think Torts set anyone up for failure. He made people earn ice time. There's a huge, huge difference between the two and I think making players earn ice is a good way to go about coaching. When you hand people things they don't deserve they get used to it and it stunts work ethic.

Exactly. Where around the league do you see any team, let alone a successful one spoonfeeding icetime to young players despite not producing past a healthy scratch rate? And people want that player in a top 6 role?

Look at Chicago's Jeremy Morin, a former USA WJC player who shattered 30g barrier in just 67 GP in AHL season, plays the same position as Kreider, just as fast. Do you see the Blackhawks contemplating to place him on their first line? Absolutely not.

Heck, look at the Rangers roster over the years. Did Callahan or Anisimov start in the top 6? Dubinsky quickly got moved into the top 6 with Jagr, but that's because he was producing in the minors and was playing well in the bottom 6 to earn that promotion. Hagelin started on a line with John Mitchell and got moved into the top line role, only to never look back. Kreider has done absolutely nothing to warrant top line or top 6 minutes.

The irony here is that people are expecting THE Alain Vigneault to change things up with prospects when he is in fact one of the toughest coaches on young players. See Grabner, Hodgson, Kassian, Schroeder.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

I would say this Fall could be very eye-opening. But I'm not sure all of those eyes really want to be opened.

It's much more fun to take our hopes and wishes and pencil the Rangers in as a top-10 offense with zero defensive trade offs.

Exactly! This team as presently constructed looks more and more like a 10th seed and no playoffs unless their "Teflon GM" grows some balls and pulls off a one sided blockbuster trade for say, an Evander Kane!