Softest Leaf Forward Group Since 2000?

[LeafEgo]

Pretty similar. You know claims have gone off the rails when the best power forward in the game is called "soft" because he drew a penalty and laughed in the face of somebody trying to provoke him one time.

But that's pretty much par for the course around here. Isolate one instance, remove context, wildly exaggerate it and skew it as a negative, and then label both the whole team and player soft as a result. And no matter what evidence or context that is provided to show otherwise, it's ignored because they believe "we lost" justifies any narrative they want.

Bit surprised by that. From their BR scouting reports:

Mack | 6'0, 200: "Fierce competitor.....skilled forward who plays with a lot of power"
Landy | 6'1, 215: "brings a valuable physical presence....highly skilled but also very physical"
Ranty | 6'4, 215: "big, strong, and mobile power forward"

Matty | 6'3, 205: Nothing mentioned (presumably sufficient but not noteworthy)
Mitch | 6'0, 172: "alarming lack of size...needs to bulk up to survive at the professional level"
Willy | 6'0, 202: "needs to add muscle and size before he can take an 82-game season against men"

I've never thought Matty was 'soft', but if you think there is no material difference in physicality/toughness between the two teams top three forwards then we are a ways apart.

It should be noted and warrants a discussion on how much it matters and what could be done about it - particularly as the Avs are seen as a comparatively 'soft' cup winner.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Bit surprised by that. From their BR scouting reports:

Why do you think some cherry picked statements from the scouting reports of players that were drafted as much as 11 years ago have any relevance here?

particularly as the Avs are seen as a comparatively 'soft' cup winner.

Don't worry. They won, so like usual, just give it a year and people will be revising history to describe them as some wrecking ball team that physically imposed their will on the opposition, bulldozing their way to the cup. Happens almost every year, to feed the "we're too soft! panic!!" machine.

 

[TheRumble]

Why do you think some cherry picked statements from the scouting reports of players that were drafted as much as 11 years ago have any relevance here?

Don't worry. They won, so like usual, just give it a year and people will be revising history to describe them as some wrecking ball team that physically imposed their will on the opposition, bulldozing their way to the cup. Happens almost every year, to feed the "we're too soft! panic!!" machine.

This narrative shift happened with the Caps too. They won the President Trophy in back to back years but lost to the Pens both times in the second round. The narrative with them was that Ovi was a choke artist (who somehow scored a point per game in the playoffs) that didn't play defense and that they were a slow and mentally soft team.

Then they won the Cup and everyone said it was because they were big and tough and Ovi changed his game to become a better defender - he's still personifies the controller disconnected meme on a regular basis.

What actually happened:

- Holtby had an all time playoff run
- Kuznetsov ran like fire that run. 32 points in 24 games. He should have won the Conne Smythe
- Devante Smith Pelly who was out of the league the very next year put up 8 points in 24 games after putting up 13 points in 82 games in the regular season
- Washington lost Alzner and Shattenkirk in the previous off season and were forced to play faster, younger defencemen. Whenever some combo of Orpik, Alzner and Shattenkirk were on the ice at the same time they'd get cooked vs the Pens and Leafs
- Specifically in the Pens series, Murray didn't bail the Pens out like he did the previous year.

Most hockey fans don't watch games closely enough to notice those things though so they made up reasons like the Caps wanted it more and because Tom Wilson injures people. I'm seeing that creation myth right now on this forum with Leaf fans making up superpowers for Matthew Tkachuk.

 

[Nineteen67]

This narrative shift happened with the Caps too. They won the President Trophy in back to back years but lost to the Pens both times in the second round. The narrative with them was that Ovi was a choke artist (who somehow scored a point per game in the playoffs) that didn't play defense and that they were a slow and mentally soft team.

Then they won the Cup and everyone said it was because they were big and tough and Ovi changed his game to become a better defender - he's still personifies the controller disconnected meme on a regular basis.

What actually happened:

- Holtby had an all time playoff run
- Kuznetsov ran like fire that run. 32 points in 24 games. He should have won the Conne Smythe
- Devante Smith Pelly who was out of the league the very next year put up 8 points in 24 games after putting up 13 points in 82 games in the regular season
- Washington lost Alzner and Shattenkirk in the previous off season and were forced to play faster, younger defencemen. Whenever some combo of Orpik, Alzner and Shattenkirk were on the ice at the same time they'd get cooked vs the Pens and Leafs
- Specifically in the Pens series, Murray didn't bail the Pens out like he did the previous year.

Most hockey fans don't watch games closely enough to notice those things though so they made up reasons like the Caps wanted it more and because Tom Wilson injures people. I'm seeing that creation myth right now on this forum with Leaf fans making up superpowers for Matthew Tkachuk.

You don’t think Ovechkin changed his game?

 

[TheRumble]

You don’t think Ovechkin changed his game?

To be a more defensive player? No. He's always been a bad defensive player. Before, after and during his first cup run.

 

[Nineteen67]

To be a more defensive player? No. He's always been a bad defensive player. Before, after and during his first cup run.

I seem to remember his coach praising him for his overall play during that run. Especially his leadership and commitment. Trotz won’t agree with your re-write, but have at it anyway.

 

[TheRumble]

I seem to remember his coach praising him for his overall play during that run. Especially his leadership and commitment. Trotz won’t agree with your re-write, but have at it anyway.

You're making things up because you don't understand hockey so your attributing intangibles to actual on ice results. Ovi has played the exact same his entire career. He's always brought it in the playoffs, it's just the rest of his team finally came together. It's actually hilarious to me that you believe you can see someone "commit" and provide "leadership" in a game.

I'd lay actual money that nobody on HFBoards could point to a tangible change in on ice behaviour from Ovi between 2018 and before or after.

 

[Nineteen67]

You're making things up because you don't understand hockey so your attributing intangibles to actual on ice results. Ovi has played the exact same his entire career. He's always brought it in the playoffs, it's just the rest of his team finally came together. It's actually hilarious to me that you believe you can see someone "commit" and provide "leadership" in a game.

I'd lay actual money that nobody on HFBoards could point to a tangible change in on ice behaviour from Ovi between 2018 and before or after.

Blocked shots.

 

[DuklaNation]

This roster is butter soft. Your bottom 6 should be very physical and it pays dividends in the playoffs. Especially if your top 6 is soft. The finesse four complicates this issue a lot and Dubas appears unwilling to address it. Surely people don't think its just random that this roster can't get past the first round?

 

[TheRumble]

Blocked shots.

Ovechkin in 2011-12 blocked 14 shots in a 14 game playoff run that ended in round 2 vs the Rangers under Bruce Boudreau.

Ovechkin in 2017-18 blocked 14 shots in a 24 game playoff run at while playing under Barry Trotz. That run ended in a cup.

Try again.

 

[Nineteen67]

Everyone is free to think how they want, I’ll take what my eyes saw and his teammates and coaches said….

“ Ovechkin looked so young then, back when McPhee uttered those words. He hadn't filled out, and his hair had yet to turn gray. Everything was ahead of him, all the promise and the pain, though he would not know it yet. He knows it now.

He knows what it has taken to get here, how his game had to change, how he had to change. It was notable in the past few seasons, when a commitment to defense and blocking shots and an all-around game took root in a way it never had before.

And maybe that was when those close to him could see this coming.

"He's always been really good, but he's grown, I think over the last couple years," said forward Jay Beagle, a teammate for eight seasons. "You can see it. This postseason you could really tell that he is willing to do whatever it takes away from the puck, blocking shots, all those small plays that you don't normally notice."

They noticed. And they said, maybe, finally, this was their moment. They had watched, as defenseman John Carlson put it, as Ovechkin "evolved;" as he started playing "the most complete he's played in his whole career," as Connolly said.

That was cemented last summer when coach Barry Trotz met with Ovechkin in Russia after the player's wedding. The coach pointed out his game would have to change even more, he would have to train differently and work differently after a 2016-17 season when he scored 33 goals after clearing 50 the three previous seasons.”

 

[TheRumble]

I wouldn't trust what your eyes saw considering you're just repeating quotes from people to confirm your biases. You still haven't explained a single component of Ovi's game that he changed from 2017 and before to 2018. Also, since we're on this line of thinking, do you believe that from 2019 onwards he returned to his old habits?

 

[andora]

I wouldn't trust what your eyes saw considering you're just repeating quotes from people to confirm your biases. You still haven't explained a single component of Ovi's game that he changed from 2017 and before to 2018. Also, since we're on this line of thinking, do you believe that from 2019 onwards he returned to his old habits?

Possible.. all it takes is a coach with a different view to tell ovi to just be himself

And after winning with that storyline it is natural if you let off the gas a bit

 

[Dekes For Days]

To be a more defensive player? No. He's always been a bad defensive player. Before, after and during his first cup run.

Funny thing is, many of Ovechkin's on-ice defensive results were worse in 2017-2018 than most other years.

And the team overall was one of the worst defensive teams in the league that year. It was Washington's worst defensive season of the analytical era, and they were the worst defensive team in the analytical era to win a cup. And they were called soft. And they were called broken. Ovechkin was this flawed core player. And it was claimed that their window was over, and they'd never win a cup.

But then they won, and suddenly they were a tough, experienced, committed team that learned how to play the "right way". Narratives be narratives.

 

[ACC1224]

Possible.. all it takes is a coach with a different view to tell ovi to just be himself

And after winning with that storyline it is natural if you let off the gas a bit

Trotz definitely got the most out of that Team. He would be a revelation here.

 

[Knies iT]

In that case, by your same criteria:

22-23: Clifford, Simmonds, Bunting, Kampf, Engvall, Anderson.

End of debate, really. If you're going to name low/no minute guys as those that move the toughness "needle", I'll add guys of that same ilk + add guys who play more than low-minutes that play hard also.

Conclusion = this isn't anywhere near the softest team in the past 22 years. Some of the Leafs teams you are defending because they had 1 or 2 enforcers who played 4 minutes a night, used to get bullied all over the rink consistently.

Engvall the menace. What a joke.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Downy Soft All Day Long...

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

softest front office and defense too.

 

[Optimist]

Yup 2000 bc.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Changed my vote to yes. It's pretty damn bad. In the top 6 Matthews can throw as many hits as he wants but he's alone up there on that front. Bunting is an agitator but he isn't strong. Marner and Robertson (or Malgin if he draws back there) are too small to contribute that way, and JT and Willy while I think both are strong on their skates won't do much in the way of physicality either.

The bottom 6 is a travesty. There's nothing there outside of Kampf. Kerfoot, Jarnkrok, and Engvall are all the same type of player and none of them have the ability or will to impose themselves physically or do anything else useful. NAK and ZAR who were supposed to be our new crash and bang sandpaper line are both dull. Simmonds and Clifford are too old and slow to be of any real use outside of a small set of circumstances.

I know this thread is about forwards but I can't ignore the defence. It's also bad in this area, especially without Muzzin. Rielly has heart but he isn't bruising and is a liability defensively. Brodie is reliable defensively but he too is soft. Holl is big for nothing and just looks like an oaf out there. Sandin can throw the good hit every now and again but he's not intimidating. Giordano is a smart player but he's never played that style of game himself, and at 5'9" Mete certainly can't add anything physically. Liljegren will help a bit when he comes back but like Sandin he's not big enough to be intimidating.

Fixing this will take a lot. Can see why people hate seeing Malgin in the lineup knowing who was traded away to acquire him. Regardless of Marchment not looking good in his last callup here, his skillset and attitude was unique enough that it should've been someone like Engvall who was traded for Malgin. In any case the only hope of remedying this issue with the forwards internally is Knies and Douglas. Douglas will be lucky to be a 4C in the league, and Knies will take time to acclimate. Much like 2019 the Leafs will have to trade for a bruising defenseman, mortgaging more of the future because the franchise can't be arsed to develop a physical defenseman on it's own.

 

[IPS]

Forget forward group.

This is full on the softest team of the big-3 era.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Forget forward group.

This is full on the softest team of the big-3 era.

This is true.

16-17 had Kadri, Martin, Komarov, Hyman, and Polak.

17-18 had Kadri, Martin Hyman, Komarov, and Polak.

18-19 had Kadri, Muzzin, Hyman, and Brown.

19-20 had Hyman, Muzzin, and Clifford sparingly + playoffs (this season had the fewest tenacious players outside of this one and had the worst season out of all).

20-21 had Hyman, Muzzin, Simmonds, Bogosian, and Foligno for like a minute before his back injury rendered him useless.

21-22 had Lyubushkin, Simmonds, Clifford sparingly, and Muzzin for half the season + playoffs

22-23 has... Bunting? Old and less useful Simmonds and Clifford? Muzzin is likely done as a player so who the heck is here that offers some tenacity?

 

[Maple Leaf]

I would say it is too soft for the playoffs

 

[HockeyVirus]

I would say it is too soft for the playoffs

Depends on if Knies can find a role on the third line off the bat. If he can, the Leafs IMO just need a top 6 winger and are set. If they want another physical forward, they gotta move likely Engvall to make room.

 

[Doublerum1975]

They are not soft look at the Dallas game they took hits to make plays