So far the RFA signings seem like good deals to most of us on HF CBJ. Is that an indication that we overvalue our young guys?
- Thread starter koteka
- Start date
-
ALL Pickem Pools are now open - NFL Survivor, NFL Pickem AND NHL Survivor Click here for info and to join a pool
CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
- Jun 13, 2009
- 43,435
- 26,354
Of course we do. We’re fans. We’re not the only fanbase who does it. That’s not a bad thing.
Waddell didn’t draft these players and thus the attachment isn’t there. However, it is telling that he decided to keep all of them (so far). That must mean he sees what we see, or at least sees the potential that could be.
Waddell didn’t draft these players and thus the attachment isn’t there. However, it is telling that he decided to keep all of them (so far). That must mean he sees what we see, or at least sees the potential that could be.
None of the above. We're always correct, it's just Waddell undervaluing the players and players undervaluing themselves. 
At least for me for me, a good deal means that it's fair value for both sides. That's how I have felt about the rfa deals so far in terms of AAV.
The 3 year terms on KJ and Marchy are a good call, so I'll give Waddell credit for that
The 3 year terms on KJ and Marchy are a good call, so I'll give Waddell credit for that
None of the above. They're second contracts.
Marchenko came in around where we expected. KJ agreed to more term than we expected, and that was revealing, at least that KJ is playing a long game with his development here and isn't counting on popping this year.
By comparison, here are the second contracts for Bjorkstrand ($2.5m x 3, and this was after he scored 40 pts) and Josh Anderson ($1.85m x 3). Jarmo got a lot of flak for being an overly tough negotiator with RFAs, it came up over and over again in the 2020 "why are they leaving" investigation. You hope Waddell has been able to better build trust with the players while still getting deals. That's more important than a half million here or there.
Marchenko came in around where we expected. KJ agreed to more term than we expected, and that was revealing, at least that KJ is playing a long game with his development here and isn't counting on popping this year.
By comparison, here are the second contracts for Bjorkstrand ($2.5m x 3, and this was after he scored 40 pts) and Josh Anderson ($1.85m x 3). Jarmo got a lot of flak for being an overly tough negotiator with RFAs, it came up over and over again in the 2020 "why are they leaving" investigation. You hope Waddell has been able to better build trust with the players while still getting deals. That's more important than a half million here or there.
Xoggz22
Registered User
If anything, did this further support what many have said before...Jarmo over valued his players?
My thought is that the agents written with many teams and players and they aren't going to be snookered by one GM of a downtrodden team. GMDW seemed to manage the Hurricanes pretty well and appears to have a good eye on value. I think term days more about what they think of the players than maybe the money. Fans tend to value players based on what we see our read more so than the GM. A GM has more tools and comps to dig into. It will be interesting to see the next contracts and whether we actually see development from the new coach and, hopefully, philosophy of letting younger players grow before being nhl players
My thought is that the agents written with many teams and players and they aren't going to be snookered by one GM of a downtrodden team. GMDW seemed to manage the Hurricanes pretty well and appears to have a good eye on value. I think term days more about what they think of the players than maybe the money. Fans tend to value players based on what we see our read more so than the GM. A GM has more tools and comps to dig into. It will be interesting to see the next contracts and whether we actually see development from the new coach and, hopefully, philosophy of letting younger players grow before being nhl players
JacketFanInFL
Brick by Brick
A bit of B and C. The results in the standings, goals against, and player progression the past few years do not lie, despite our best efforts to excuse/ignore them. There are a couple exceptions.
The true metric would be comparing similar players from other teams to see if we actually got a "deal," which I do not care enough to do. My guess is that these deals are slightly better than market average.
The true metric would be comparing similar players from other teams to see if we actually got a "deal," which I do not care enough to do. My guess is that these deals are slightly better than market average.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
"Value" and "overvalue" are difficult things. For years the primary reaction to most new contracts is "that's wayyy too much!" nor something even more dramatic. Yet average contracts have gone up and players are earning more per season than ever before. I find it hard to assess value in most contracts because they always seem like overpays to me but the market says what the market says.
Given that, I usually assume a new contract will be distasteful in some way - term or AAV or both - and go from there. When it's not, I'm surprised.
So I've been surprised with both KJ and Marchy. I don't really know how to assess it, but I went with "Waddell is a good negotiator." Of course, this is the same guy who gave such an egregious contract (according to most of the reactions I've noted) to Sean Monahan. I'm chalking that up tio Waddell is still a good negotiator but has a realistic approach when it comes to UFAs, especially those whom you're trying to convince to move.
Given that, I usually assume a new contract will be distasteful in some way - term or AAV or both - and go from there. When it's not, I'm surprised.
So I've been surprised with both KJ and Marchy. I don't really know how to assess it, but I went with "Waddell is a good negotiator." Of course, this is the same guy who gave such an egregious contract (according to most of the reactions I've noted) to Sean Monahan. I'm chalking that up tio Waddell is still a good negotiator but has a realistic approach when it comes to UFAs, especially those whom you're trying to convince to move.
EspenK
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2011
- 15,792
- 4,387
If by "we" you meant us here on the board I would break the group into 3 groups. Those who think they are great and should be signed to large $ and long term;those who think they all suck and are all overpaid; and those who are in a group depending on the player.
I think the appropriate vote would be "a little of all 3". I went for "2" as a compromise.
Before these signings I seem to recall a lot of posters who would have signed guys for more and longer than they got. I think there were a few of us who hoped for what has happened. I was one of them but admit that I may have espoused a longer deal for Marchenko on one or two occasions during on of his hot streaks.
I think where posters go way overboard on optimism is with prospects.
I think the appropriate vote would be "a little of all 3". I went for "2" as a compromise.
Before these signings I seem to recall a lot of posters who would have signed guys for more and longer than they got. I think there were a few of us who hoped for what has happened. I was one of them but admit that I may have espoused a longer deal for Marchenko on one or two occasions during on of his hot streaks.
I think where posters go way overboard on optimism is with prospects.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
- 10,855
- 6,964
It is without a doubt a significant overvaluation by the fan base. I went with the 3rd option in the poll.
Other than Marchenko, the rest of the RFAs have taken minimal contracts. Why? Because that's what they're worth at this point. It's almost certain that there are no superstars in the recently negotiated contract group. There may be a few who won't be NHL material by the time their newly-signed deals expire.
The dismissal of Jarmo was shown its importance in the recent negotiations and UFA action. Waddell is evaluating the players rationally and probably not only because he's not emotionally tied to them. He's a better evaluator of talent than Jarmo is. Not one of the negotiations has gotten ugly and the agents who have been involved aren't exactly pushovers. It was a case of a GM who knew the true value of his players and agents who understood that the GM was accurate in his assessments.
This negotiating season could end up being a pivotal point for the future of the franchise. The franchise is already burdened by the Gaudreau and Severson deals. The Elivs and Laine contracts-while not back breakers at this point-aren't value contracts. Had Waddell given out long term bigger money deals over this summer, the CBJ would basically be stuck with a roster that has yielded around 60 points for the past two seasons-and that wouldn't be ideal. The current roster is not the Colorado Avalance 2016-17 v2.0.
Other than Marchenko, the rest of the RFAs have taken minimal contracts. Why? Because that's what they're worth at this point. It's almost certain that there are no superstars in the recently negotiated contract group. There may be a few who won't be NHL material by the time their newly-signed deals expire.
The dismissal of Jarmo was shown its importance in the recent negotiations and UFA action. Waddell is evaluating the players rationally and probably not only because he's not emotionally tied to them. He's a better evaluator of talent than Jarmo is. Not one of the negotiations has gotten ugly and the agents who have been involved aren't exactly pushovers. It was a case of a GM who knew the true value of his players and agents who understood that the GM was accurate in his assessments.
This negotiating season could end up being a pivotal point for the future of the franchise. The franchise is already burdened by the Gaudreau and Severson deals. The Elivs and Laine contracts-while not back breakers at this point-aren't value contracts. Had Waddell given out long term bigger money deals over this summer, the CBJ would basically be stuck with a roster that has yielded around 60 points for the past two seasons-and that wouldn't be ideal. The current roster is not the Colorado Avalance 2016-17 v2.0.
Iron Balls McGinty
Registered User
- Aug 5, 2005
- 9,059
- 7,119
I’m not sure how to tie any of those choices together but we absolutely overvalue prospects because they haven’t earned anything yet at the NHL level.
- Jan 12, 2011
- 14,221
- 10,540
I didn’t vote for any of the choices as I don’t buy the premise. But I will say that I think Waddell has negotiated well so far.
Xoggz22
Registered User
I think you also need to add Chinakhov to your post. Only a 2 year deal but that too also seems to be very fair and maybe perceived as team friendly given the thought process on Chinakhovs trajectory.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
Crede777
Deputized
- Dec 16, 2009
- 14,789
- 4,482
They're 3 contracts for players coming off of their ELC's. We need a larger sample size before we can begin drawing broader conclusions about Waddell's negotiation abilities.
That said, I am interested in comparing the tenor and content of public statements made by players under Waddell to those under Jarmo. Jarmo's negotiations, especially with young players, seemed quite adversarial. My suspicion is that Waddell will be a bit more diplomatic.
That said, I am interested in comparing the tenor and content of public statements made by players under Waddell to those under Jarmo. Jarmo's negotiations, especially with young players, seemed quite adversarial. My suspicion is that Waddell will be a bit more diplomatic.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
Weren't we just fretting last week about how D-Wad was talking about Marchy?
koteka
Registered User
Looking through the various contract signing threads:
Greaves - no negative comments
Christiansen - no negative comments, surprise it was not a 1-way deal
Chinakhov - nothing but praise for the deal
KJ - lots of praise for the deal
Marchenko - many people thought it would be significantly higher
So I don’t know why you reject the premise. None of these seemed contentious. Going through the threads the sentiments seems to be that these are all good contracts for the CBJ. We signed 5 contracts that all seem like good deals. Meanwhile Nylander signs an AHL contract, and Bemstrom and Boqvist sign for league minimum.
Crede777
Deputized
- Dec 16, 2009
- 14,789
- 4,482
I must have missed that. But we fret about everything on here anyways.
What I saw on Marchenko was that Waddell was complimentary but said he needed to do more research on the player before committing to a 3rd year. Marchenko meanwhile was mainly frustrated with how long the process was taking.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
- 10,855
- 6,964
More feathers in Waddell's cap.
Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff is a huge part of being an effective NHL GM.
I think it's a combination of factors. I like what I have witnessed so far with Waddell negotiating and the players signing what look like team friendly deals while giving the players the opportunity to cash in huge deals if they develop right. However, Waddell is also the same guy who signed a 20pt Jesperi Kotkaniemi to a $6m offer sheet then turned around and gave him $4.8m AAV for 8 years coming off a 29pt season. That's always going to be in the back of my mind.
That was a Dundon move, not Waddell's call.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
- 10,855
- 6,964
IIRC this was the "revenge" for the Aho offer sheet if it was the owner's call.
In any case, the Kotkaniemi contract at least didn't have any signing bonuses attached to it AND he still can be bought out for the under 26 rate of 1/3rd instead of the normal 2/3rds.
Last edited:
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
The Don is classier but the Wadfather is just too good to ignore. Keep it in the rotation.
