So Babcock needs to go... (Part 2)

[GrizzGreen]

Just have to take a look at where they grew up.

Can you think of many non-rich families living in Markham or Scottsdale?

And of those non-rich families, how many can afford to put their kids through hockey?

Arizona is California's Walmart. If you're AM's level you're not paying for anything past 15.

 

[Zizzzzy]

I think its a little early to be firing the HC and causing that sort of turmoil.

Look, we had a ton of roster turnover in the offseason. New leafs:
- Barrie
- Kerfoot
- Mikheyev
- Shore
- Spezza
- Timashov
- Ceci
- Marincin (didn't play last year)
- Holl (didn't play last year)

I'd like to give it another month and see if these guys can find some chemistry.

To be fair, the concern is not the bottom 6. Its the locked up core.

 

[dfunk]

This team needs a players coach plain and simple. Someone who will let the talented players be talented players. Not a stubborn mule who is stuck in his ways

 

[IPS]

Babcock's system is INCREDIBLY easy to exploit and leaves itself to be taken advantage of quite easily. It's high risk high reward without the traditional pond hockey concept. Pressure at all times to force a turnover, which includes pinching from the blue line multiple times a play = the direct result of the Leafs giving up many high danger chances, this pressure ties in to overusing the stretch pass from the "pressure" that comes from his system. His system also says dump in over carry in. It's highly outdated and not effective, especially not with this personnel.

He could get away with this in Detroit because he had Lidstrom who was practically a god at long range stretch passes.

He also at Datsyuk who could literally dangle guys at will and enter the zone clean every time.

His lines 2-4 in Detroit were actually mostly grinders who thrived in a dump-and-chase game anyway. That was kind of the whole idea of his system, he had Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg who he would hard match against team's best guys and those guys would win the match-ups 9/10 times. They'd get the lead and lines 2-4 would make it a complete grind-war which they usually won out.

But it's completely asinine to expect that's going to work with our roster.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Dubas has been the GM for a little over 1 season . That's hardly enough time to "build" a team when it was already essentially built when he took over. I'm baffled that you don't seem to know that. The Leafs biggest concern was the defence and their lack of depth and quality, it was a major concern that everyone knew. Dubas in less than 1 year, went out and acquired Muzzin, Barrie and Ceci to help solidify the back end and did so without having to give up much in the process. You can't ignore the good because you're mad right now.

I’m not sure if you know, that, Dubas, has been with our organization for a number of years and when he finally did get the reigns, this is what he has morphed this team into.

The only move I have liked has been his trade for Muzzin. Barrie was not the type of dman we needed and he traded one of our best trade chips for a single year of him (Barrie). We needed more grit on the backend. We need some one who can clear the crease and hold the opposition accountable.

Sure Tavares was a great signing, but c’mon, even Dubas himself stated that was all Tavares.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

This team needs a players coach plain and simple. Someone who will let the talented players be talented players. Not a stubborn mule who is stuck in his ways

Bruce Boudreau!

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I’m not sure if you know, that, Dubas, has been with our organization for a number of years and when he finally did get the reigns, this is what he has morphed this team into.

My post from another thread:

His work in the past rebuilding teams such as the Greyhounds and the Marlies, all align with rebuild in Toronto. There's a reason the first main management piece Shanny went after before we began the rebuild, was literally Kyle Dubas.

ALL on the team and developed under Dubas from the Marlies: Kapanen, Johnsson, Hyman, Dermott, Moore, Nylander, Timashov, Gauthier, Holl

ALL on the team from Dubas trades: Muzzin, Barrie, Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Ceci, Marincin

ALL being developed currently on the Marlies: Sandin, Lilijegren, Engvall, Robertson, SDA, Bracco, Scott, etc.

Matthews (1OV), Marner (4OV) were super-obvious picks AND caused by the rebuild (which as I mentioned Dubas was a major part of).

Andersen and Rielly were fantastic moves by the previous management (Lou). But outside of that, what on earth has he 'inherited'.​

The only move I have liked has been his trade for Muzzin. Barrie was not the type of dman we needed and he traded one of our best trade chips for a single year of him (Barrie). We needed more grit on the backend. We need some one who can clear the crease and hold the opposition accountable.

Sure Tavares was a great signing, but c’mon, even Dubas himself stated that was all Tavares.

Barrie was the D-man we needed. We had no puck-moving RHD. Zero. We need a version of Rielly on the right-hand side and Dubas got it. Not only that, he got us a Kadri replacement in Kerfoot. Has Kerfoot not impressed you this season? We got Muzzin (our best defensive D by far) and Ceci (I don't like him, but he's exactly the player you described minus the mean-streak).

 

[Walshy7]

My post from another thread:

His work in the past rebuilding teams such as the Greyhounds and the Marlies, all align with rebuild in Toronto. There's a reason the first main management piece Shanny went after before we began the rebuild, was literally Kyle Dubas.

ALL on the team and developed under Dubas from the Marlies: Kapanen, Johnsson, Hyman, Dermott, Moore, Nylander, Timashov, Gauthier, Holl

ALL on the team from Dubas trades: Muzzin, Barrie, Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Ceci, Marincin

ALL being developed currently on the Marlies: Sandin, Lilijegren, Engvall, Robertson, SDA, Bracco, Scott, etc.

Matthews (1OV), Marner (4OV) were super-obvious picks AND caused by the rebuild (which as I mentioned Dubas was a major part of).

Andersen and Rielly were fantastic moves by the previous management (Lou). But outside of that, what on earth has he 'inherited'.​

Barrie was the D-man we needed. We had no puck-moving RHD. Zero. We need a version of Rielly on the right-hand side and Dubas got it. Not only that, he got us a Kadri replacement in Kerfoot. Has Kerfoot not impressed you this season? We got Muzzin (our best defensive D by far) and Ceci (I don't like him, but he's exactly the player you described minus the mean-streak).

was Rielly a fantastic move? He signed him for $5M that was neither a discount nor an overpay at the time he was playing about the level of a $5M player, sure now he is player worth a lot more than that but in 4 years time I find it hard to believe that Marner, Matthews and nylanders contracts wont be considered to being at least slightly underpaid

 

[Lightsol]

Barrie was not the type of dman we needed and he traded one of our best trade chips for a single year of him (Barrie). We needed more grit on the backend. We need some one who can clear the crease and hold the opposition accountable.

Fans: This team's defense sucks! No one on the right side can move the puck, so teams just concentrate on preventing the left side from moving the puck...
Dubas: *trades for Barrie*
Fans: Barrie's the wrong kind of defenseman! We need hard-nosed grinders on the back side; let the left side guys handle puck exits!

 

[KPower]

Bruce Boudreau!

 

[Apotheosis]

He could get away with this in Detroit because he had Lidstrom who was practically a god at long range stretch passes.

He also at Datsyuk who could literally dangle guys at will and enter the zone clean every time.

His lines 2-4 in Detroit were actually mostly grinders who thrived in a dump-and-chase game anyway. That was kind of the whole idea of his system, he had Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg who he would hard match against team's best guys and those guys would win the match-ups 9/10 times. They'd get the lead and lines 2-4 would make it a complete grind-war which they usually won out.

But it's completely asinine to expect that's going to work with our roster.

Yup. This team isn't built like that. Rielly is amazing at stretch passes but he's not Lidstrom. He uses one system that only worked in Detroit. This team is built like Tampa/Pittsburgh and the system should reflect that.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Yup. This team isn't built like that. Rielly is amazing at stretch passes but he's not Lidstrom. He uses one system that only worked in Detroit. This team is built like Tampa/Pittsburgh and the system should reflect that.

Imagine having 2 of the best skating defensemen in the league and not letting them skate the puck out for breakouts.

 

[7even]

Arizona is California's Walmart. If you're AM's level you're not paying for anything past 15.

f***in lol. You're not wrong.

 

[Legendary]

This team needs a players coach plain and simple. Someone who will let the talented players be talented players. Not a stubborn mule who is stuck in his ways

A nick nurse type coach. Well liked by players but can make the tough call when needed

 

[AreBe]

This team needs a players coach plain and simple. Someone who will let the talented players be talented players. Not a stubborn mule who is stuck in his ways

Had a chat with Moron Man, a hockey theologian preaching ancient views. Met him at the bar, wearing running shoes, track pants, a ball cap, drinking domestic draft and eating chicken wings because of the good value they represent per ounce of meat. He told me that the Leafs are too athletic and have too much skill.

In short, Moron Man thinks we need more 3rd and 4th line grinders. Slow guys. Good Canadian kids. Too many Europeans making the Leafs a little Soviet Red Army powerhouse- no good. Leafs Nation will not stand for it Need to trade Nylander while we can because that is sure to go well.

If Babcock cannot figure out that the Leafs want to turn the game into a track meet, then he needs to go.

Babcock needs to think he is coaching the Soviet Red Army team and every player knows where everyone else is and will be in 5 seconds and can blindly pass the puck with confidence, and further know that their teammate is faster, and can get there before an opponent can. That is what we need. Babcock needs to let it rip and let them play shinny.

Do the opposite of what Moron Man said- Moron Man said we cannot learn from the NBA and we cannot have positionless hockey. Everyone needs to be in thier silo- that is the path to success. We need to just let it rip. Forwards and defencemen - no centers, no wingers.

 

[supermann_98]

A nick nurse type coach. Well liked by players but can make the tough call when needed

And like Nurse, a coach who isn’t afraid or opposed to making in-game adjustments depending on who’s playing well on any particular night, or depending on the matchup.

This old clown treats line changes as if you gotta trade in your wife and kids

 

[hector morrison]

I think there may be some truth to the idea of the coach isn't the perfect fit for the squad. I like Babcock , and I think he's a great coach who can still turn this around. He did get more out of this team than people give him credit for, but this team still has some of same flaws its always had under him like the slow starts forcing the team to come from behind all the time. Sometimes moving on from a coach is what a team needs, its not like teams havent won a cup after firing their coach mid season. Whether that works for the Leafs? I have no clue

I've gotten to the point where I don't appreciate ,understand or agree with most of what Babs does..I've grown tired of his familiar schtick.
However,I would try harder to understand his ways if this team were to win it all with him as the coach. Right now ,I'm thinkin' he is here till the end of another 1st round playoff exit...and then Shanny will have a tough decision to make. If the decision was all up to Dubas,I'd bet Babs will be gone.

 

[IPS]

Had a chat with Moron Man, a hockey theologian preaching ancient views. Met him at the bar, wearing running shoes, track pants, a ball cap, drinking domestic draft and eating chicken wings because of the good value they represent per ounce of meat. He told me that the Leafs are too athletic and have too much skill.

In short, Moron Man thinks we need more 3rd and 4th line grinders. Slow guys. Good Canadian kids. Too many Europeans making the Leafs a little Soviet Red Army powerhouse- no good. Leafs Nation will not stand for it Need to trade Nylander while we can because that is sure to go well.

If Babcock cannot figure out that the Leafs want to turn the game into a track meet, then he needs to go.

Babcock needs to think he is coaching the Soviet Red Army team and every player knows where everyone else is and will be in 5 seconds and can blindly pass the puck with confidence, and further know that their teammate is faster, and can get there before an opponent can. That is what we need. Babcock needs to let it rip and let them play shinny.

Do the opposite of what Moron Man said- Moron Man said we cannot learn from the NBA and we cannot have positionless hockey. Everyone needs to be in thier silo- that is the path to success. We need to just let it rip. Forwards and defencemen - no centers, no wingers.

I was also having a chat with Moron Man.

He was telling me the Leafs can't get a powerplay because they aren't ramming guys into the boards hard enough. He postulated it was a big mistake getting rid of our PIM leaders in Kadri, Komarov, Martin and Polak because now the Leafs are too soft and teams will be taking liberties on us without fear of retribution.

I was a little confused by Moron Man's contradictory logic but he quickly rebuked me by calling me a clueless millennial.

 

[CelticDruid]

Just go back to the run and gun hockey from the first year and let her rip!

At least it was entertaining as hell.

 

[Teeder Keon]

Yes he does !

 

[Carltons Cup]

Just go back to the run and gun hockey from the first year and let her rip!

At least it was entertaining as hell.

I agree...

Right before the game, Babs should walk in the dressing room and say "screw it boys. No gameplan tonight. Just play however you want to play".

 

[Rare Jewel]

He could get away with this in Detroit because he had Lidstrom who was practically a god at long range stretch passes.

He also at Datsyuk who could literally dangle guys at will and enter the zone clean every time.

His lines 2-4 in Detroit were actually mostly grinders who thrived in a dump-and-chase game anyway. That was kind of the whole idea of his system, he had Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg who he would hard match against team's best guys and those guys would win the match-ups 9/10 times. They'd get the lead and lines 2-4 would make it a complete grind-war which they usually won out.

But it's completely asinine to expect that's going to work with our roster.

Oh yeah such grinders like Hudler, Flippula, Samuelsson. Maybe Franzen I guess, but he had talent as well. They had few guy you could characterize like that, but they chipped in as well.

I won't ignore the fact that he tends to overindulged in certain players (Hyman). Perhaps some of the traits that you've described need to be adopted. There is some similarities between the his Detroit teams and the Boston team that has seen us off the last two playoffs.

 

[stickty111]

 

[KuleminFan41]

I’m not sure if you know, that, Dubas, has been with our organization for a number of years and when he finally did get the reigns, this is what he has morphed this team into.

The only move I have liked has been his trade for Muzzin. Barrie was not the type of dman we needed and he traded one of our best trade chips for a single year of him (Barrie). We needed more grit on the backend. We need some one who can clear the crease and hold the opposition accountable.

Sure Tavares was a great signing, but c’mon, even Dubas himself stated that was all Tavares.

Being with the organization, doesn't mean you're running the club or even have a significant say in building the team. It was clear that Lou was running the show and left his advisor role because he wanted to continue being a GM. Look no further than him bringing in Komarov and Martin to New York, its pretty clear that it was Lou who made the final decisions in Toronto and wanted to build the team a certain way. So no, Dubas has only been building the club since May 2018.

The Leafs needed better puck movement on the right side and Barrie is a very good puck moving RHD. The Leafs needed a guy like that in order to give the team more options in moving the puck and it gives opposing teams a bit more to think about when going into the Leafs zone. You don't want to telegraph your break out by always giving it to the left handed side. Just look at the playoffs series against Boston, they actively tried keeping the puck as far away as possible from Gardiner and Rielly because they're better at moving the puck than Hainsey and Zaitsev. You don't need "grit" if you can move the puck fast enough. I'd rather have "soft" Barrie than slow and gritty Roman Polak or Zaitsev, which would you prefer? No one knows if Barrie is staying or going, you can't make assumptions just because you want to get angry. I'm of the belief that they wouldn't have traded Kadri if they weren't going to, or at least make a good attempt at retaining Barrie by the end of the season.

I'm not even sure where Tavares came from here but my point was that he fixed a need by acquiring 2 great defensemen in Muzzin and Barrie, while acquiring Ceci, who looks to be a fairly solid acquisition as well. That's 3 defensemen in less than 1 calendar year, while Lou didn't exactly bolster the Leafs defense by the acquisitions of Polak , Zaitsev, Marincin, Hunwick and Hainsey.

 

[mulefarm]

Muzzin and Barrie are good, but not great!