So Babcock needs to go... (Part 2)

[hector morrison]

Have to ask, which would bring the Leafs more success right now:
-Pat Burns as coach
or
-Passionate team leaders like Gilmour and Clark.

Honestly think Muzzin should of been made an Assistant Caption for a dimension he's bringing.

Gilmour was a skilled player who would get in your face as well...easier to do with the fearless Wendel in the line-up. Today's Leafs have no one even close to either of those two players. This team needs a power forward ...the sooner the better.

 

[hector morrison]

Dubas has been the GM for a little over 1 season . That's hardly enough time to "build" a team when it was already essentially built when he took over. I'm baffled that you don't seem to know that. The Leafs biggest concern was the defence and their lack of depth and quality, it was a major concern that everyone knew. Dubas in less than 1 year, went out and acquired Muzzin, Barrie and Ceci to help solidify the back end and did so without having to give up much in the process. You can't ignore the good because you're mad right now.

I'd be willing to wager that Babs wouldn't be his first choice as coach either ! If he wants to prove his ideas work ,he needs a coach that will implement that. Babs ain't that guy! Not saying Dubas system will work ,but the League is trending that way. Right now (actually ,the last 4 years) the Refs aren't helping....maybe it will change!

 

[Gary Nylund]

While it is certainly true that it is increasingly difficult for children from blue collar families to play hockey at a high level when they are growing up, do we have any evidence that either Marner or Matthews were rich kids? I know nothing about the income that either set of parents made when those two were young.

People have posted before about Marner spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on hockey related expenses for his son. Don't know how reliable that info is though.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

People have posted before about Marner spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on hockey related expenses for his son. Don't know how reliable that info is though.

Just over 100k? Sure..... I can't see hundreds of thousands
One year of AAA can run 5-10k depending on tournaments. Marner also did power skating, which could run you 2k+++++++++++++ depending on how private the lessons are, and for how long.

So from ages 4-16, I could see about 150k being very possible.

To me, the money is the easy part.... the time for everything is the hard part. If you got 2 working parents, hockey isn't THAT much. It is very time consuming though. The commitment is huge.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just over 100k? Sure..... I can't see hundreds of thousands
One year of AAA can run 5-10k depending on tournaments. Marner also did power skating, which could run you 2k+++++++++++++ depending on how private the lessons are, and for how long.

So from ages 4-16, I could see about 150k being very possible.

To me, the money is the easy part.... the time for everything is the hard part. If you got 2 working parents, hockey isn't THAT much. It is very time consuming though. The commitment is huge.

IIRC someone said there were private coaches involved as well.

 

[HomerJLeafs]

Any day now Kyle.
Any day.
Today is a good day for example.
I dont believe that this team with this coach gets better. Even if JT Travis and Hyman are back.
Its over. Its done. This is the same uninspired boring hockey babcock wanted to play last season. Its not gonna change because babcock does not adapt. He doesnt adapt to the game in game or himself to the modern hockey. Its not 2009.
Its over Kyle.
Make it happen.

 

[hoglund]

Gilmour was a skilled player who would get in your face as well...easier to do with the fearless Wendel in the line-up. Today's Leafs have no one even close to either of those two players. This team needs a power forward ...the sooner the better.

Who? And can they afford to pay one with the salary cap?

 

[Gallagbi]

So you seriously expect 40 goals out of the fourth line guys? Or 90 points?

Can we actually be serious and admit that our first and second line guys DO have talent, whether they are playing up to it at the moment or not?

I expect more than we've seen out of our top line(s)

I think everyone knows the skill is there, question is how much is that talent willing to work?

 

[Eat The Rich]

While it is certainly true that it is increasingly difficult for children from blue collar families to play hockey at a high level when they are growing up, do we have any evidence that either Marner or Matthews were rich kids? I know nothing about the income that either set of parents made when those two were young.

Just have to take a look at where they grew up.

Can you think of many non-rich families living in Markham or Scottsdale?

And of those non-rich families, how many can afford to put their kids through hockey?

 

[supermann_98]

Well at least the positive is they are thinking about it.

That's kinda what I feared with Tavares getting hurt ... a longer leash for Babs

 

[ACC1224]

Just have to take a look at where they grew up.

Can you think of many non-rich families living in Markham or Scottsdale?

And of those non-rich families, how many can afford to put their kids through hockey?

good one

 

[Kurtz]

You are upset about Petan/Carcone/Ennis being too small, all of whom didn't even hold down permanent 4th line spots. You justified this by saying the team is missing a Hyman-like presence, as if a 4th liner playing every 3 games makes any difference at all.

Our 4th line is good, and no team is going to have a 2+ million dollar Hyman-level player sitting in the pressbox just in case.

The cap structure isn't good, but small 13th forwards are an insane thing to be this upset about. It doesn't matter whether it's Petan, Lindholm, or Martin sitting in the pressbox.

We need a Tkachuk in the top 6. We can't afford a Tkachuk in the top 6 whether Marner is making 11 mil or 9. Even if we had the money, we don't have the assets to bring one in without making a hole somewhere else.

Trade Marner for Tkachuk and Nylander for Domi. Our intensity and cap-room problems solved in those 2 moves.

 

[IPS]

That's kinda what I feared with Tavares getting hurt ... a longer leash for Babs

It's a pretty pathetic dynamic overall.

Good teams battle through injuries and step up. See: Bruins without Bergeron (he gets hurt a lot).

Granted that the Leafs won't think that way, they'll just make all the excuses necessary for incompetency.

 

[NiftyMits]

I wouldn’t mind a top 10 pick if Shanahan doesn’t fire him.

You mean the first round pick that Carolina gets this season?

 

[Stephen]

Gilmour was a skilled player who would get in your face as well...easier to do with the fearless Wendel in the line-up. Today's Leafs have no one even close to either of those two players. This team needs a power forward ...the sooner the better.

One guy that reminds me of Gilmour is actually Brad Marchand. Sadly enough. He was obviously not a pest and was superior defensively but same chip on his shoulder and drive and could be a hound on the puck.

 

[hector morrison]

Who? And can they afford to pay one with the salary cap?

I guess that's the relevant question. Finding a trade partner is rarely easy. Maybe a home grown one. Marchment probably isn't the answer ,but maybe he would help. Was looking forward to seeing him in camp,but I heard he was injured. Not sure who else fits the job description.

 

[hector morrison]

One guy that reminds me of Gilmour is actually Brad Marchand. Sadly enough. He was obviously not a pest and was superior defensively but same chip on his shoulder and drive and could be a hound on the puck.

Yes ,I too made that observation...just don't like the character or lack of integrity that comes with the package .

 

[29Potvin]

You mean the first round pick that Carolina gets this season?

I believe he means that we get the pick this year if it's in the top ten and Carolina gets our 2021 no matter where we finish in 2021 no protection

 

[Cleetus]

You mean the first round pick that Carolina gets this season?

its top 10 protected.

 

[KuleminFan41]

I'd be willing to wager that Babs wouldn't be his first choice as coach either ! If he wants to prove his ideas work ,he needs a coach that will implement that. Babs ain't that guy! Not saying Dubas system will work ,but the League is trending that way. Right now (actually ,the last 4 years) the Refs aren't helping....maybe it will change!

I think there may be some truth to the idea of the coach isn't the perfect fit for the squad. I like Babcock , and I think he's a great coach who can still turn this around. He did get more out of this team than people give him credit for, but this team still has some of same flaws its always had under him like the slow starts forcing the team to come from behind all the time. Sometimes moving on from a coach is what a team needs, its not like teams havent won a cup after firing their coach mid season. Whether that works for the Leafs? I have no clue

 

[Legendary]

You mean the first round pick that Carolina gets this season?

Not if it’s top 10

 

[tom leafers]

Did I miss something? Is Boone Jenner Sidney Crosby?

i think its more that if Boone Jenner is out, we should put out our big guns so there is a clear skill advantage in our favor. Matching Kerfoot against him simply evens the odds for CBJ

 

[Apotheosis]

I think you're 100% right on... I was listening to Leafs Lunch and 4min into the 2nd hour Craig Button made a good point. He said that Babs has this propensity to push his players to pressure the other teams all the time. The problem with said pressuring is that it leaves holes in our D-zone coverage where other teams exploit it. Button called it Mindless pressure where your doing it without any real plan...he pointed out that Justin Holl was up around the blueline chasing a Bruin when Pasternak was sitting in front of the net without anyone around him. I agree with him on that point. It seems there is no logic or plan to our D-zone coverage...just guys chasing around the puck and then missing the open guy who scores. It just seems that the big stars are realizing this system will never work for the talent we have.

AM is totally not giving a crap in his own zone. When people say he is young and learning I call BS. In his 1st year he was very, very good in his own end...so what happened? What could cause him to not care for the last 2yrs? I don't know what happened but I do know he can do it if he wants...he just doesn't care to anymore.

He lost the big players confidence and he still has the newer guys like Moore and Mickey and Kerfoot playing hard...but when you lose the most talented of the bunch...you're gonna have problems. I am not excusing AM and MM...I hate the fact they wanted to get paid before they did anything....but unless you're trading them...the coach has got to be the one who goes.

Babcock's system is INCREDIBLY easy to exploit and leaves itself to be taken advantage of quite easily. It's high risk high reward without the traditional pond hockey concept. Pressure at all times to force a turnover, which includes pinching from the blue line multiple times a play = the direct result of the Leafs giving up many high danger chances, this pressure ties in to overusing the stretch pass from the "pressure" that comes from his system. His system also says dump in over carry in. It's highly outdated and not effective, especially not with this personnel.

 

[JSn0w93]

I feel at this point we’re all wondering when not if.

 

[Lightsol]

I expect more than we've seen out of our top line(s)

I think everyone knows the skill is there, question is how much is that talent willing to work?

And the point I'm trying to make is Babcock's coaching style, especially with respect to ice time, works much better with teams where the talent difference between the lines is miniscule. And that's because he likes to keep ice time 5v5 even, where all four lines play similar minutes. It worked when the Leafs weren't very good and choosing to throw Bozak or Kadri or Holland out there didn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things. But now?
And I have no doubt his "my way or the highway", "defense only", even-line-minutes style of coaching would grate on a lot of players. How long do you think it would take for a 40 goal scorer to wonder why he bothers when he's going to get the same ice time as a guy who was playing in the European leagues last year and just barely made the team? Or less minutes than a guy who was a 40 goal scorer 10 years ago, but now can barely crack 50 points?
And that's not even factoring in that Babcock's accountability system is horribly out of whack, which is why we saw him repeatedly punish Marner and Nylander for infractions that Hyman, Marleau and Komarov got away with...
He's driving the creativity out of our scoring forwards with the way he's coaching. We all know they need to be better defensively, but what he's doing to drill that into them isn't working. And we know it isn't, because they go into every year with the same problems.