Confirmed with Link: Slavin named Lady Byng finalist - wins in landslide

[Roboturner913]

Best how? Believing that women shouldn't hold the most important positions of power is not a "best" people quality. Nor is the belief that God's highest "level" can only be achieved by those in a heterosexual marriage.

I am not singling out Momorns--you made that point. We all have some unappealing beliefs--but participating in structural inequalities deserves questioning if not some level of opprobrium.

There are shitty Mormons and good Mormons, shitty Christians and good Christians, shitty Muslims and good Muslims, shitty atheists and good atheists, etc. That was the point.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

In the case of these particular Christians, absolutely. It's why I didn't set foot in a church for about 15 years. But don't be fooled into thinking they're the only game in town just because they're the loudest. While the southern baptists are pumping money into the most corrupt elements of the GOP and guilting 5 year old little kids into thinking they're sinners who are going to hell unless they repent, the Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans and others (at least the more progressive elements of those) are actually out there doing the kind of shit Jesus would have people do, like helping the less fortunate.

Way too many generalizations in here to take this serious

 

[Tryamw]

There are shitty Mormons and good Mormons, shitty Christians and good Christians, shitty Muslims and good Muslims, shitty atheists and good atheists, etc. That was the point.

And even more assholes. Such as myself

 

[Roboturner913]

Way too many generalizations in here to take this serious

It's hard not to generalize. I'm sure there are good southern Baptists too, I just haven't seen any of them. I suppose it would be more appropriate to say "the more harmful elements of Christianity" and I guess I shouldn't have used "southern Baptist" as shorthand for that just because my own experiences with the southern Baptist church have been .....not good

If I offended you, I apologize.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

Too many sex abuse scandals to look at any denomination in a good light in my opinion.

 

[Roboturner913]

Too many sex abuse scandals to look at any denomination in a good light in my opinion.

There are good ones and bad ones in all of them. You just have to find the good ones.

Or just reject all of it. I honestly don't think God - whatever his nature - really cares whether you go to church every Sunday or never go at all.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

There are good ones and bad ones in all of them. You just have to find the good ones.

Or just reject all of it. I honestly don't think God - whatever his nature - really cares whether you go to church every Sunday or never go at all.

When the church is protecting the abusers, there are no good ones. There are systematic issues which cannot be avoided if you decide to support the organization.

 

[Roboturner913]

When the church is protecting the abusers, there are no good ones. There are systematic issues which cannot be avoided if you decide to support the organization.

I find that kind of all-or-nothing thinking to be....limiting, if not altogether harmful. But you do you. Like I said, it's probably foolish to think God gives two flying farts whether you are part of a church or not.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

For me, it's simple. For all the many, many religions out there and the many, many sects within those religions, there's a few core beliefs that most (if not all) of them share. They're obvious beliefs, things that should be self-explanatory, things like "Be kind to your neighbor", "Don't steal", "help the poor", etc.

So, IMO, I think the world would be better off if religious organizations focused on what common ground they have with other sects/religions, rather than focusing on (and condemning) the differences, some of which are really nit-picky things (IMO).

And I figured if there is a higher power, following those core beliefs would be sufficient for judgement, regardless of which (if any) religion is "correct."

Funnily enough, when I wrote an article expressing a similar belief in my (Catholic) high school paper, I was forced to issue an apology article later. Still salty about that, though it's more about the journalistic integrity rather than any religious reasons.

 

[Roboturner913]

I was forced to issue an apology article later

Was telling them to f*** right off not an option?

 

[hockeynjune]

Human nature is the biggest detriment to organized religion.

 

[emptyNedder]

Human nature is the biggest detriment to organized religion.

I think the Chesterton quote is applicable to all religions. Sorry I don't think it is the exact quote, but too lazy to get it!

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Was telling them to f*** right off not an option?

Not particularly. The paper was essentially an after school club and the English teacher basically served as head editor/proctor of the club. He understood where I was coming from (from the journalistic point of view), but told me that I still had to write the apology.

He didn’t come out and say it, but I believe he was also in some hot water because of the article. I liked the guy and didn’t want to get him in trouble, so I caved and wrote a half-ass “I’m not wrong, but I apologize if I offended” article that came and went without fanfare.

 

[Roboturner913]

get it. I tend to be more hotheaded about these things than most (I have many HFboards warning points to prove this)

 

[hockeynjune]

I think the Chesterton quote is applicable to all religions. Sorry I don't think it is the exact quote, but too lazy too get it!

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

As a former Baptist deacon, I agree.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think the Chesterton quote is applicable to all religions. Sorry I don't think it is the exact quote, but too lazy too get it!

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

Was not expecting my worlds to collide here and Chesterton to be quoted on the Canes HFBoards, but it's a welcome collision.

 

[Buenos Necas]

Not particularly. The paper was essentially an after school club and the English teacher basically served as head editor/proctor of the club. He understood where I was coming from (from the journalistic point of view), but told me that I still had to write the apology.

He didn’t come out and say it, but I believe he was also in some hot water because of the article. I liked the guy and didn’t want to get him in trouble, so I caved and wrote a half-ass “I’m not wrong, but I apologize if I offended” article that came and went without fanfare.

Can definitely relate to your position there. I also went to a religious high school and butted heads with the faculty sometimes, definitely felt like the relationships I had with certain teachers were used against me in the "you don't want to get them in trouble" kinda way. And ultimately you're a kid amongst adults, not a ton you can really do.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

For me, it's simple. For all the many, many religions out there and the many, many sects within those religions, there's a few core beliefs that most (if not all) of them share. They're obvious beliefs, things that should be self-explanatory, things like "Be kind to your neighbor", "Don't steal", "help the poor", etc.

So, IMO, I think the world would be better off if religious organizations focused on what common ground they have with other sects/religions, rather than focusing on (and condemning) the differences, some of which are really nit-picky things (IMO).

And I figured if there is a higher power, following those core beliefs would be sufficient for judgement, regardless of which (if any) religion is "correct."

Funnily enough, when I wrote an article expressing a similar belief in my (Catholic) high school paper, I was forced to issue an apology article later. Still salty about that, though it's more about the journalistic integrity rather than any religious reasons.

Food for thought: you should ask yourself why they are obvious and self-explanatory!

 

[MinJaBen]

Food for thought: you should ask yourself why they are obvious and self-explanatory!

Clearly because as we evolved as social animals, social contract dynamics and relationships proved successful to the species as a whole, so those feelings were selected for and the counter feelings were selected against and did not propagate as widely in our genome.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think it's fair to say that pretty much anything you can find wrong with "the church" can also be found wrong in virtually all other organized aspects of society. Last I checked, there are sexual abuse scandals tied to everything from schoolteachers to Hollywood producers and everyone in between. Same with financial scandals. Same with structural inequality. Same with using power to crush opposing points of view. That stuff all goes under the header of You Knew What This Was When You Started Handing Out Authority To Humans.

Cross those things off the list, and the criticisms still left over are the ones that are fair to level at religion specificially.

 

[emptyNedder]

Cross those things off the list, and the criticisms still left over are the ones that are fair to level at religion specificially.

Completely agree with your post about power/systems being the real problem--and obviously only in a never-attainable utopia will that not be true.

However, I am not sure about the above statement. Because religions (unlike entertainment businesses, perhaps somewhat like school systems) have at their core the concept that organization and even authority used correctly can overcome our foibles. So to have the same abuses are doubly problematic. If you agree with that (not saying you should or even I would if I really think about it more deeply), then it is fair to criticize religion for failing in the same way as other organizations because those are some of the ways religions claim to be "better" than other organizations.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Can definitely relate to your position there. I also went to a religious high school and butted heads with the faculty sometimes, definitely felt like the relationships I had with certain teachers were used against me in the "you don't want to get them in trouble" kinda way. And ultimately you're a kid amongst adults, not a ton you can really do.

Honestly, it worked out for the best. The whole article stemmed from a religion class where the teacher said "These are the things you must believe, unequivocally, to consider yourself Catholic", and I (and some of my classmates) realized we didn't believe some of the things she listed. Up until that point, it was the cliche of "I'm Catholic because my parents are and we go to Church every Sunday."

So once I realized I wasn't Catholic, I did research into other sects/religions to see if any fit my belief system. Took a World religions class in college, etc. Never found one that fit the mold exactly, so I decided to follow the common ground beliefs that they all shared.

I don't hold any ill will towards those who are a part of organized religion, but I realized it wasn't for me.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Completely agree with your post about power/systems being the real problem--and obviously only in a never-attainable utopia will that not be true.

However, I am not sure about the above statement. Because religions (unlike entertainment businesses, perhaps somewhat like school systems) have at their core the concept that organization and even authority used correctly can overcome our foibles. So to have the same abuses are doubly problematic. If you agree with that (not saying you should or even I would if I really think about itmore deeply), then it is fair to criticize religion for failing in the same way as other organizations because those are some of the ways religions claim to be "better" than other organizations.

I suppose that would be one of the things left on the religion-specific list.

 

[Buenos Necas]

Completely agree with your post about power/systems being the real problem--and obviously only in a never-attainable utopia will that not be true.

However, I am not sure about the above statement. Because religions (unlike entertainment businesses, perhaps somewhat like school systems) have at their core the concept that organization and even authority used correctly can overcome our foibles. So to have the same abuses are doubly problematic. If you agree with that (not saying you should or even I would if I really think about itmore deeply), then it is fair to criticize religion for failing in the same way as other organizations because those are some of the ways religions claim to be "better" than other organizations.

Was gonna type a similar reply, just the idea that it does hit a bit different when sexual abuse scandals, structural inequities etc. are found in the structures that claim an ownership to morality, as referenced in a previous post. But as tarheel said, can add that do the religion-specific list.

Honestly, it worked out for the best. The whole article stemmed from a religion class where the teacher said "These are the things you must believe, unequivocally, to consider yourself Catholic", and I (and some of my classmates) realized we didn't believe some of the things she listed. Up until that point, it was the cliche of "I'm Catholic because my parents are and we go to Church every Sunday."

So once I realized I wasn't Catholic, I did research into other sects/religions to see if any fit my belief system. Took a World religions class in college, etc. Never found one that fit the mold exactly, so I decided to follow the common ground beliefs that they all shared.

I don't hold any ill will towards those who are a part of organized religion, but I realized it wasn't for me.

Yeah I pretty much feel the same way, not bitter towards anyone but just not for me. It would have made a lot of things easier in life if I could have fallen into the clear structure my upbringing offered, but it just wasn't something I could do honestly and likely would have left me in a very unhappy place.

 

[geehaad]

it's fair to say that pretty much anything you can find wrong with "the church" can also be found wrong in virtually all other organized aspects of society.

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find non-religious orgs that have these "features":

Original sin (you are a sinner who must repent!)
Threat of eternal damnation/suffering
Purity culture and female/victim shaming
Labeling homosexuality as an abomination
Regarding those outside the org as heretics in need of saving
Killing in the name of a god
Slavery in the name of that god

...and I'll bet I left out 500 additional things.