TSN: Siegel: Leafs stand to benefit from new CBA

[Kirkpatrick]

Prior to the lockout, Burke supporters claimed that the Kovalchuk-esque cap circumventing contracts would be punished in the new cba.

Leaf fan realists pointed out that it wouldn't make much sense for Bettman to punish and anger his bosses and that there probably wouldn't be any punishments.

I honestly don't know how this turned out.

I imagine that the leaf fan realists were probably right (because they usually are) but don't know for sure. If I am wrong, I will humbly admit it.

Anyone know?

https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/288314425461575681

"Can 100% confirm the new CBA will include the cap benefit recapture formula. It will apply to existing deals "in excess of six years."

Mirtle's old piece on the proposed formula.

Basically, when a player retires with term left on his 6+ year contract, the team is charged a cap hit for those years equal to the amount of cap space they saved during the contract.

His example was Parise/Suter, if one retired three years early, the Wild would have saved $18.6M over the course of the contract, so they would get a $6.2M cap hit for the next three years. There was also a proposal that the recapture would be spread over twice the remaining length (so $3.1M over six years), but it seems like it was the former option.

Those were the details from the December proposal, we'll have to see how exactly it's set up for the CBA.

 

[topched]

Why so many here can't understand this is beyond baffling. I guess throwing more goals at the situation should fix it?

Its pretty simple.

Adding a big name #1 C is alot "sexier" than adding defensive depth and potentially a goaltender.

This team doesn't have a hope in hell in winning the Cup given the talent currently on the roster.

A hot month may be enough to get you into the playoffs this year, but right now thats probably the best any of us can hope for from this bunch.

 

[IBLEAF]

Bettman's CBAs are always designed for parity focusing on the weakest teams trying to bring them up to the level of the others both with financial assistance and lowered Salary Cap and loser points for OTL.

With a lowering of the Cap some better teams will be forced to use amnesty buyouts and/or release some players, and teams like the Leafs looking for help, can benefit with talent upgrades on the present team like the other teams in their situation with excess players hitting the market.

Teams also being able to eat salary in trades (if that exists in the new CBA) will allow Toronto also to move some players in trade that might otherwise be undesirable, by eating a portion of their contracts. Mike Komisarek to NYI with Toronto retaining $2 mil of his contract, and his actual salary at $3.5 mil with a $4.5 mil cap hit is a perfect fit to obtain a pick or prospect in the deal.

This would be a dream come true!!!

 

[egd27]

Yeah but some teams are rich enough not to care. If the owners of the Leafs had to shell out $5 million (just to pick a number) to buy someone out would they really notice that money?

You're right based on the example of $5M to the Leafs.

However examples like the following seem less likely.
Florida - $14M for Campbell
Tampa - $35M for Lecavalier
Isles - $20M for DiPietro

 

[The Blue Devil]

If the NHL awarded 2 points for a win and 0 points for a loss then each game would separate teams by 2 points guaranteed..

However with loser points being awarded for losses it makes games with only 1 point advantage strong to weak teams and pulls the bottom teams along keeping them in the playoff races longer each season.

The OTL point is all about weak teams and small market teams parity some of which have trouble attracting fans even when successful.. When these teams fall out of playoff contention attendance drops even further in these markets. There is no such thing as ties in Bettman's NHL either any longer, because that and the circus shootout deciding games is directed at fan interest in seeing a winner decided to put more butts in seats, where the points system however is focused on keeping teams bunched together..

Last season Boston NE Div winners recorded 4 OTL loser points while the Leafs recorded 10.. That resulted in +6 extra points Toronto earned keeping them closer to the Bruins in the standings, while LOSING more games. Take away loser points and the Bruins are +6 points advantage rewarded for losses.

Florida won the SE Div with 94 points last year on 18 loser points, while Washington the cream of the SE Div finished with 92 points on on 8 OTL.. It was the +10 extra loser points Florida was awarded the made that difference in only the 2 points separating the teams in the standings, and that is exactly what Bettman wanted to see in small markets occurring as a result. Weaker teams play for tie games after regulation, even have systems that focus on walking away with a point in the game even when they lose them eventually. Washington (42 wins) verses Florida (38 wins) WON 4 more games than the Panthers but finished below them in the standings at the end as a result of Florida LOSING more games last year.. Its all about the losers that brings parity to the NHL by the scoring system..

Teams don't get points for losing, they get it for the tie.

 

[Drew311]

You're right based on the example of $5M to the Leafs.

However examples like the following seem less likely.
Florida - $14M for Campbell
Tampa - $35M for Lecavalier
Isles - $20M for DiPietro

They're the ones who either signed or traded for these players. If these players are untradable, what difference does it make if they play out the contract or are bought out? In either scenario the team pays all the money to the player.

 

[Beleafer4]

Why so many here can't understand this is beyond baffling. I guess throwing more goals at the situation should fix it?

I can guarantee you it will drop under carlyle

 

[Mowerman]

Even players like Colton Orr earning $1 mil in the minors, will have $625k count against the Leafs salary cap this year, if he plays for the team or not.

The NHL has a minimum salary of $0? Well, lets get us some of those free stars.

 

[New Liskeard]

I recall several posters chirping and crying how Burke wouldnt sign UFA's to Kovalchuk, Richards type contracts, yet here we are potentially looking at those very same teams in a position to be penalized should those players not fulfill their contractual obligations to its end. Who would have thunk it? Not to mention, the cap space Burke and Poulin have arranged to have moving forward.

 

[New Liskeard]

I can guarantee you it will drop under carlyle

To the degree needed to be top 10 in GA? I doubt it. He'll help there, but a goalie is needed no question.

 

[egd27]

They're the ones who either signed or traded for these players. If these players are untradable, what difference does it make if they play out the contract or are bought out? In either scenario the team pays all the money to the player.

The difference is those teams (and many others) don't have the financial resources to pay out large sums of money to someone that won't be playing for them.

 

[MapleLeafGardens*]

Some of you guys are worth the price of admission!

You really think and trust that Brian Burke is going to fix the very mess he's created here since he's been Leafs GM? And do it by signing FA players which he has clearly proved he isn't very good at?

 

[Mowerman]

Some of you guys are worth the price of admission!

You really think and trust that Brian Burke is going to fix the very mess he's created here since he's been Leafs GM? And do it by signing FA players which he has clearly proved he isn't very good at?

The reason we don't have a mess is because Burke showed restraint and foresight going into the new CBA in regards to what type of contracts he was willing to offer the top flight guys. We are in a new CBA with a drastically changed landscape and potential major consequences for the teams who do have these contracts on the books.

I wouldn't pay a cent to listen to you.

 

[4evaBlue]

To the degree needed to be top 10 in GA? I doubt it. He'll help there, but a goalie is needed no question.

Getting into the top 10 in GA would be nice (and yes, a solid goalie would be needed for that, in addition to improved team defense), but it's not a requirement to make the playoffs. I'd be content with getting into the top 20 in GA (while maintaining top 10'ish GF), which would mean improving our GA by 30 or so. I think a more structured system that doesn't rely on goalies making multiple HoN candidate saves a night has a chance of doing that by itself.

 

[ULF_55]

The reason we don't have a mess is because Burke showed restraint and foresight going into the new CBA in regards to what type of contracts he was willing to offer the top flight guys. We are in a new CBA with a drastically changed landscape and potential major consequences for the teams who do have these contracts on the books.

I wouldn't pay a cent to listen to you.

You know there are only 18 contracts that are greater than the years allowed in the new CBA.

So yes, Burke did not sign any of these guys: Source capgeek

1. Kovalchuk, Ilya
2. DiPietro, Rick
3. Weber, Shea
4. Ovechkin, Alex
5. Parise, Zach
6. Suter, Ryan
7. Keith, Duncan
8. Zetterberg, Henrik
9. Richards, Mike
10. Luongo, Roberto
11. Hossa, Marian
12. Lecavalier, Vincent
13. Carter, Jeff
14. Franzen, Johan
15. Backstrom, Nicklas
16. Ehrhoff, Christian
17. Richards, Brad
18. Bryzgalov, Ilya

That's it. It isn't like 22 teams signed these long retirement deals. Even reduce the count by Mike Richards, Jeff Carter and Nik Backstrom, who are all young enough to play out their deals.

So we're talking 15 contracts, so seriously, Burke is no different than most GM's when it comes to not signing retirement deals.

 

[rdawg1234]

Alot of hardcore pessimists on this board.

look at the 5th overall finish(2 points back of 9th) but ignore that we were a playoff team for 3/4's of the season.

My point is we have more talent then you think. We're not amazing dont get me wrong, but some act like we're a garbage ahl team that wont do anything on a given year.

you throw Luongo in this mix(I will never understand a good reason not to bring him in unless the price is too high) and noone will regret getting him when you get in the playoffs.

leave the #1 C for the summer, Getzlaf may hit UFA, or with a tonne of capspace we could go for a big trade. Alot of options.

With a couple big moves this team could become a deep playoff contender fast IMO.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Is he worth 5.5M for his level of play? There are only so many dollars to go around with a 64M cap, getting better players for less dollars are the teams that win.

No he isnt. Grabovski got every penny in his last deal and then some. I like him but 4 or 4.5 is the max he should have gotten. His 5.5 million will make Kessel ask for 7 and Lupul 6.5. Incoming superstar free agents are going to want 8 million using Grabovski as the baseline.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You're right on most of this. I have no issues giving Lupul $6M, and Kessel $7M (not sure if that'll get it done). I'm even fine with Phaneuf at $6.5, as he's improved considerably defensively, and more or less maintained his production while facing some tough competition.

What we've yet to see, is how Carlyle will be able to reshape our defensive system. Sure, goaltending (Reimer) was a major issue last season, but not giving up 10 golden scoring chances against each and every game will by itself result in more wins.

We've also gotten rid of a defenseman who performed awful last season in exchange for some much needed size, and net presence up front. That move helped us both offensively and defensively.

If Burke can find us a half-decent goalie not named Luongo, this team could very well be making the playoffs.

Great avatar, I always pictured #84 as a Smurf, now we have visual proof.

We need to improve our GA and Goaltending if we are to be better, this is why Burke builds teams from the net out, he got it all wrong 4 years ago by going Kessel and working backward.

I am truly mystified why some posters here actually believe if we sign Lupul, Kessel, Grabo, Dion and add with whatever money we scrape from the bottom of the barrel sign a #1C we will be having a parade on Bay St with one such move.

Even if we added Wayne Gretzky in his prime onto this team, we wouldn't win the cup. This team is a collection of bits and parts, it is certainly not built as a team where all the parts fit. So I am always amazed to read here from certain posters not all, that we are 1 or 2 moves away from contending. Truly wondering what these posters are watching, explains why some think we have the greatest 5.5M #2C in the NHL.

Mindboggling.

 

[ULF_55]

Great avatar, I always pictured #84 as a Smurf, now we have visual proof.

We need to improve our GA and Goaltending if we are to be better, this is why Burke builds teams from the net out, he got it all wrong 4 years ago by going Kessel and working backward.

I am truly mystified why some posters here actually believe if we sign Lupul, Kessel, Grabo, Dion and add with whatever money we scrape from the bottom of the barrel sign a #1C we will be having a parade on Bay St with one such move.

Even if we added Wayne Gretzky in his prime onto this team, we wouldn't win the cup. This team is a collection of parts, it is not built as a team where all the parts fit. So I am always amazed to read here from certain posters not all, that we are 1 or 2 moves away from contending. Truly wondering what these posters are watching, explains why some think we have the greatest 5.5M #2C in the NHL.

Mindboggling.

People are talking Stanley Cup victory?

Where?

Are you confusing playoffs (which 16 teams make) with a Stanley Cup?

 

[Warden of the North]

You know there are only 18 contracts that are greater than the years allowed in the new CBA.

So yes, Burke did not sign any of these guys: Source capgeek

1. Kovalchuk, Ilya
2. DiPietro, Rick
3. Weber, Shea
4. Ovechkin, Alex
5. Parise, Zach
6. Suter, Ryan
7. Keith, Duncan
8. Zetterberg, Henrik
9. Richards, Mike
10. Luongo, Roberto
11. Hossa, Marian
12. Lecavalier, Vincent
13. Carter, Jeff
14. Franzen, Johan
15. Backstrom, Nicklas
16. Ehrhoff, Christian
17. Richards, Brad
18. Bryzgalov, Ilya

That's it. It isn't like 22 teams signed these long retirement deals. Even reduce the count by Mike Richards, Jeff Carter and Nik Backstrom, who are all young enough to play out their deals.

So we're talking 15 contracts, so seriously, Burke is no different than most GM's when it comes to not signing retirement deals.

Most GMs arent dragged through the mud when they dont sign these deals. Fans (including a fair number on this board) and the media have shredded Burke apart for not signing these deals.

The panic and wailing is going to be delicious as more and more people start to realize just what their GMs have done. Its already starting on the Canucks board

 

[satyr9]

You're missing Crosby and M.Savard at least (couldn't be bothered to look harder if there were more).

There's only 16 teams who've gotten close to capped out in the last 5 years (capgeek doesn't go back further), meaning there are 14 teams who would have absolutely zero interest in such an arrangement, as salary is more important than cap space to them (although it does beg the question what NYI was doing starting this off with DiPietro and why TB bothered wth Lecavalier). Of those teams, the only ones who haven't signed a player to a backdiving retirement contract are: Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, San Jose, and Edmonton.

So Calgary and Montreal made the double mistake of being active in major FA and not backdiving their deals, hence they're both in some of the biggest cap messes in the league. Edmonton hardly belongs, but they were within 500k of the cap the year before drafting Hall. And San Jose stretched as far as they could to keep their window open, but they were hardly a franchise who wanted to find ways to spend money above and beyond the cap.

So, while I don't mean to give Burke a ton of credit here, he is one of very few GMs who had a market and franchise capable of spending beyond the cap using circumventing contracts and chose not to do so (give SJ management credit for fielding very good teams, retaining premium UFA age talent, and not getting sucked into back-diving. Partial credit to MTL and CGY).

The argument against giving him credit is that BB has led a team far more like Edmonton than the others, not in payroll potential, but in talent to pay. It's easy to avoid those deals when you don't have anyone to give them to. So he didn't want to give Brad Richards a retirement deal, hardly some enormous principle to stand on. If he'd had a Crosby, Ovie, or Weber to lock up, I fully believe we would've seen him sign them to a backdiving contract regardless of prior statements and we would've all applauded him for it.

Imagine the fan backlash if TOR had an elite player and while the rest of the league signed elites to backdivers for cap hits in the 6's, 7's, and 8's, Burke stuck to his alleged guns and put them on our cap for for 11-12m per year. There would've been riots in the streets about how cheap this proves MLSE is and the damn pension or Rogers or whoever.

So I agree Burke is largely in an advantageous cap position because he and his predecessors (to be fair his priors are more to blame for him not having a 27-28 year-old superstar to pay) sucked at most other aspects of their job, but that doesn't change the fact that he deserves a little credit for avoiding things like *shudder* Ehrhoff or trying to get Kessel's name on a 45 year extension. Also, decent marks for realizing that if you won't go whole hog for B.Richards or Parise types, there's no upside trying to go FA for the second tier (well Komi, but everybody's got at least a couple bodies they'd like buried).

 

[4evaBlue]

Great avatar, I always pictured #84 as a Smurf, now we have visual proof.

That's supposed to be Waldo, guess I need to tweak it a bit.

We need to improve our GA and Goaltending if we are to be better, this is why Burke builds teams from the net out, he got it all wrong 4 years ago by going Kessel and working backward.

I really don't think our defense is as bad as Wilson made them look.

I am truly mystified why some posters here actually believe if we sign Lupul, Kessel, Grabo, Dion and add with whatever money we scrape from the bottom of the barrel sign a #1C we will be having a parade on Bay St with one such move.

Even if we added Wayne Gretzky in his prime onto this team, we wouldn't win the cup. This team is a collection of bits and parts, it is certainly not built as a team where all the parts fit. So I am always amazed to read here from certain posters not all, that we are 1 or 2 moves away from contending. Truly wondering what these posters are watching, explains why some think we have the greatest 5.5M #2C in the NHL.

Mindboggling.

I sort of agree. I rather have depth than a few superstars. If the #1 line splutters, we need to have 2 lines picking up the slack. This team cannot solely rely on Lupul and Kessel for offense, we need consistent secondary scoring.

Give me a defensively sound, playmaking #2C to play between Kessel and Lupul, and invest the savings into improving our scoring depth. The fact that plugs like Frattin and the snakebitten Kulemin were the best options for our secondary scoring line is pathetic.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

People are talking Stanley Cup victory?

Where?

Are you confusing playoffs (which 16 teams make) with a Stanley Cup?

Really? I have seen plenty of rosters already made up that need to be filled by a #1C and it looks like sunshine, rainbows and make belief playoffs in Leaf land.

Not until we are picking hopefully 5th again will be we rejoicing, I just hope we can crack into the bottom 3 will reality set in.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

That's supposed to be Waldo, guess I need to tweak it a bit.



I really don't think our defense is as bad as Wilson made them look.



I sort of agree. I rather have depth than a few superstars. If the #1 line splutters, we need to have 2 lines picking up the slack. This team cannot solely rely on Lupul and Kessel for offense, we need consistent secondary scoring.

Give me a defensively sound, playmaking #2C to play between Kessel and Lupul, and invest the savings into improving our scoring depth. The fact that plugs like Frattin and the snakebitten Kulemin were the best options for our secondary scoring line is pathetic.

I know one thing, when Burke came to town 4 years ago, if I scanned this lineup and you told me it was a Burke built team. I wouldn't have believed you. One of the Softest teams in the NHL.

It's probably killing Burke when he scans this roster, perhaps he finally played it right with the new CBA and resisting those contracts.

I really see some major moves in the offing, I still believe in the man, and I do think we will be seeing a Burke type team in the near future. For one he got rid of a coach that wasn't a Burke type coach, it's just beginning. Will see how it unfolds.

 

[ULF_55]

Really? I have seen plenty of rosters already made up that need to be filled by a #1C and it looks like sunshine, rainbows and make belief playoffs in Leaf land.

Not until we are picking hopefully 5th again will be we rejoicing, I just hope we can crack into the bottom 3 will reality set in.

Making the playoffs means you are a mediocre team, winning the Cup is very different.