Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[pi314]

The parity created by the salary cap and the lower scoring levels may hurt the legacy of current players. NHL has never been more competitive than it is now and it's unreasonable to conclude that the last 20-25 years didn't produce a top ten all time player. If you have a list that has no player drafted from 1995 onwards in your top ten, then you have fallen way too much in love with the written history of the league.

I agree.

In every sport we objectively measure, athletes have gotten faster and stronger.

100 years ago the 100m was won with a time of 10.6.

Today Bolt is more than a full second faster.

If anything, there are only a handful of guys from the 80’s who could still compete now.

Watch an 80’s game on YouTube and it looks slow and amateurish.

The players continue to get better, not worse.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Without question, Sid is now one of the Top 5 best players of all time...

3 Stanley Cups
2 Conn Smythes
2 Olympic Gold Medals
2 Art Ross Trophies
2 Hart Trophies

Just now?

 

[SeanConn]

In this case yes, there is a difference between best and greatest, Hasek could have been the best goalie (prime/peak) but Roy for all what he has accomplished as a goalie and his impact on the game is clearly bigger than Hasek's when he revolutionized the NHL with his butterfly style, you know the style every goalie is using nowadays. Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time period.

By the way, Roy has FOUR Stanley Cups as a starter, not three and Hasek just one as a starter. Concerning Hasek's Harts and Pearsons, look at the years, 1997 and 1998, Gretzky was at the end of his career and Mario was retired at the time, no way Hasek could have won the Hart and Pearson against prime/peak Gretzky and Lemieux between 1988-1994 (prime/peak years of Roy).

Sorry, right... 4 cups, and 3 conn smythes in three different decades, which is just nuts. Roy is the greatest playoff goaltender of all time period. Hasek doesn't have the playoff success to compete with Roy, but he did make a miraculous run with the Sabres once, and one a cup as a starter in 2002. Had Hasek played on better teams in the 1990's... say the Red Wings... he'd have won more cups, and possibly taken away the cup from Roy and the Avs in 1996. No point in saying what ifs... I know... I'm just saying, he never played on the same kind of teams that Roy played for.

As for roy never having a chance to win a Hart in his prime... I'm Pretty sure Messier won a Hart during that 1988-1994 period where you claim no one but Lemieux or Gretzky could have won... and Sergei Federov won one too (1994).

Roy's impact on goaltending might have been bigger, but no one has been able to emulate, imitate, or escalate Hasek's truly unique style of play since... he truly played a unique style that only he could play.

Hasek is the greatest goaltender of all time, period!

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Sorry, right... 4 cups, and 3 conn smythes in three different decades, which is just nuts. Roy is the greatest playoff goaltender of all time period. Hasek doesn't have the playoff success to compete with Roy, but he did make a miraculous run with the Sabres once, and one a cup as a starter in 2002. Had Hasek played on better teams in the 1990's... say the Red Wings... he'd have won more cups, and possibly taken away the cup from Roy and the Avs in 1996. No point in saying what ifs... I know... I'm just saying, he never played on the same kind of teams that Roy played for.

As for roy never having a chance to win a Hart in his prime... I'm Pretty sure Messier won a Hart during that 1988-1994 period where you claim no one but Lemieux or Gretzky could have won... and Sergei Federov won one too (1994).

Roy's impact on goaltending might have been bigger, but no one has been able to emulate, imitate, or escalate Hasek's truly unique style of play since... he truly played a unique style that only he could play.

Hasek is the greatest goaltender of all time, period!

You're right... I forgot Messier and Fedorov but everyone knows how it was harder for a goalie to win the Hart at this time. Concerning the teams they played for, Habs teams were not great too in Roy's playing days, they were good teams but nothing like the Avalanche/Red Wings in the 90's. But you know what? Roy still won two Stanley Cups with the Habs when they had no business to win it all.

Tim Thomas was pretty close to Hasek in style but you're right, Hasek's style is hard to imitate because he had no style at all.

Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time, period!

 

[Voight]

Roy played for better teams.

His teams were good because of him. Habs in 93 had no business being in the finals but he saved them game after game in overtime. Do you think its a coincidence the Avs finally broke through and made the finals when they acquired Roy? Or that the Habs became a much more mediocre team after he left.

Hasek is definitely better than Patrick Roy...

Hasek at his peak was the best goalie we've ever see play the game... he played like no goalie before, and no goalie since.

Hasek:

6 Vezinas (94,95,97, 98, 99, 2001)
2 Harts (97, 98)
2 Pearsons (97, 98)
2 cups

Roy:

3 Vezinas (89, 90, 92)
0 Harts
0 Pearsons
4 Cups
3 Conn Smythes (86, 93, 01) Which is absolutely mind blowing

There's no argument... Roy is the greatest playoff goaltender of all time, and maybe best overall career of a goalie, but career doesn't always equate to greatness.

Hasek is the only goalie to have won multiple Hart trophies... and he won them back to back (when guys like Jagr, Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lidstrom, Bure, Federov were at their peaks) I'd give Roy the edge for better career, but no way would I say was he greater than Hasek, Hasek is the G.O.A.T. goaltender.

Hasek may have the beat peak... however Roy is the better player all time.

Kind of hard for Roy to win MVP awards when his peak came during the time of Gretzky & Lemieux.... and Hasek winning those awards is partially due to his team being average and him having to carry it every year. Roy made his team a contender but he still had to compete with guys like Sakic and Foppa for awards recognition. As for Hasek's two cups.. he was great in 2002 but look at the team he had in front of him.... Jim Carey would have won the cup if he was the goalie on that squad.

At the end of the day if you need to pick a goalie for one single game, say to win a million dollars or save your life... you're picking Roy 11/10 times.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

Crosby is in the conversation. There are 5-10 other players you can make an equally strong case for to be 5th all time, but Crosby probably has the most balanced resume of the bunch. He is certainly not top 4 though.

 

[SeanConn]

You're right... I forgot Messier and Fedorov but everyone knows how it was harder for a goalie to win the Hart at this time. Concerning the teams they played for, Habs teams were not great too in Roy's playing days, they were good teams but nothing like the Avalanche/Red Wings in the 90's. But you know what? Roy still won two Stanley Cups with the Habs when they had no business to win it all.

Tim Thomas was pretty close to Hasek in style but you're right, Hasek's style is hard to imitate because he had no style at all.

Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time, period!

Forgot Brett Hull, too! (1991)

I'm in no way trying to downplay the greatness/ legacy of Roy... Hasek was just simply the greatest goalie ever.

 

[SeanConn]

His teams were good because of him. Habs in 93 had no business being in the finals but he saved them game after game in overtime. Do you think its a coincidence the Avs finally broke through and made the finals when they acquired Roy? Or that the Habs became a much more mediocre team after he left.



Hasek may have the beat peak... however Roy is the better player all time.


At the end of the day if you need to pick a goalie for one single game, say to win a million dollars or save your life... you're picking Roy 11/10 times.

If we're picking in a hypothetical vacuum and both players are at their peaks? I pick Hasek without even a slight hesitation...

Do I need remind you of the 1998 Olympic hockey shootout between Canada and the Czech Republic? Both Roy and Hasek played great, but Hasek was just outstanding... single game, you gotta go with Hasek.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Forgot Brett Hull, too! (1991)

I'm in no way trying to downplay the greatness/ legacy of Roy... Hasek was just simply the greatest goalie ever.

I don't try to downplay the greatness/legacy of Hasek too, I'll always consider him as the second greatest goalie of all time just behind the greatest goalie ever (Roy).

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

If we're picking in a hypothetical vacuum and both players are at their peaks? I pick Hasek without even a slight hesitation...

Do I need remind you of the 1998 Olympic hockey shootout between Canada and the Czech Republic? Both Roy and Hasek played great, but Hasek was just outstanding... single game, you gotta go with Hasek.

In 1998, Roy was also nowhere near of his prime/peak years unlike Hasek though.

 

[KevinRedkey]

If you were to exclude Lemieux and Gretzky from the Hart, Rocket, and Art Ross record books, and award Rockets to league leaders before the trophy existed:

Yzerman:
1755 points
692 goals
6 major awards (Smythe, Lindsay, Ross, Ross, Selke, Hart)
Stanley Cup (x3)

Jagr:
1921 points
766 goals
11 major awards (Ross (x6), Hart, Lindsay (x3), Rocket)
Stanley Cup (x2)

Sakic:
1641 points
625 goals
3 major awards (Lindsay, Hart, Smythe)
Stanley Cup (x2)

P.Esposito:
1590 points
717 goals
15 major awards (Hart (x2), Lindsay (x2), Ross (x5), Rocket (x6))
Stanley Cup (x2)

Crosby:
1216 points
446 goals
11 major awards: (Ross (x2), Hart (x2), Lindsay (x3), Rocket (x2), Smythe (x2))
Stanley cup (x2)

Crosby is nowhere near some of these guys in points and goals. He's also a solid number of trophies behind Esposito. All he has going for him is 'per game' stats which will get worse as he ages... like it did for the others. IMO you need to compile to be top 5 - that is unless you utterly dominate like Orr and Lemieux, which Crosby hasn't. Once he hits 600 goals and 1600 points, we will have a much better idea of where he ranks. For now... no way he's top 5 all time. He's on his way though...

Note:
I combined the Ted Lindsay trophy with the Lester B Pearson as they are the same.

 

[Voight]

If we're picking in a hypothetical vacuum and both players are at their peaks? I pick Hasek without even a slight hesitation...

Do I need remind you of the 1998 Olympic hockey shootout between Canada and the Czech Republic? Both Roy and Hasek played great, but Hasek was just outstanding... single game, you gotta go with Hasek.

Do I need to you remind you of the 1986, 1993, 1996 or 2001 Stanley Cup Finals? Single game... you gotta go with Roy.

In 1998 Roy was still elite (much like Ray Bourque he was elite from his first season to his last) but he wasn't at the peak of his abilities. Hasek was.

 

[wetcoast]

If you were to exclude Lemieux and Gretzky from the Hart, Rocket, and Art Ross record books, and award Rockets to league leaders before the trophy existed:

Yzerman:
1755 points
692 goals
6 major awards (Smythe, Lindsay, Ross, Ross, Selke, Hart)
Stanley Cup (x3)

Jagr:
1921 points
766 goals
11 major awards (Ross (x6), Hart, Lindsay (x3), Rocket)
Stanley Cup (x2)

Sakic:
1641 points
625 goals
3 major awards (Lindsay, Hart, Smythe)
Stanley Cup (x2)

P.Esposito:
1590 points
717 goals
15 major awards (Hart (x2), Lindsay (x2), Ross (x5), Rocket (x6))
Stanley Cup (x2)

Crosby:
1216 points
446 goals
11 major awards: (Ross (x2), Hart (x2), Lindsay (x3), Rocket (x2), Smythe (x2))
Stanley cup (x2)

Crosby is nowhere near some of these guys in points and goals. He's also a solid number of trophies behind Esposito. All he has going for him is 'per game' stats which will get worse as he ages... like it did for the others. IMO you need to compile to be top 5 - that is unless you utterly dominate like Orr and Lemieux, which Crosby hasn't. Once he hits 600 goals and 1600 points, we will have a much better idea of where he ranks. For now... no way he's top 5 all time. He's on his way though...

Note:
I combined the Ted Lindsay trophy with the Lester B Pearson as they are the same.

using pure counting stats is really misleading though as the other 3 guys played in some seasons where scoring was much higher.

adjusted points it goes like this

Jagr 2080 (3rd all time) 1733 GP
Sakic 1679 (6th all time) 1378 GP
Yzerman 1650(7th all time) 1541 GP
Esposito 1508 (12th all time) 1282 GP
Crosby 1334 (27th all time) 943 GP

so in order to catch Espsiio Crosby only needs 174 points in 339 more GP

Yzerman 316 points in 598 GP
Sakic 345 points in 435 GP
Jagr 746 points in 790 more GP (I doubt he plays a full 9.6 season to get to Jagr's game total but he still might pass him in adjusted points and it's proable that he easily passes those other 3 guys mentioned as well.

 

[Thenameless]

Do I need to you remind you of the 1986, 1993, 1996 or 2001 Stanley Cup Finals? Single game... you gotta go with Roy.

In 1998 Roy was still elite (much like Ray Bourque he was elite from his first season to his last) but he wasn't at the peak of his abilities. Hasek was.

I'm a Montreal fan through and through. So, I appreciate Roy's heroics in 1986 and 1993 in carrying relatively weak teams to a Stanley Cup victory - he really is an ultimate money goalie. As a Habs fan, it would be nice to be able to say that one of Plante, Dryden, or Roy is the best or greatest goalie of all time.

But, if I'm being objective, and especially if my life depended on just one game, I'd prefer Hasek. There were times when Roy was the best goalie in the league, and other times when Hasek was the best goalie in the league. The difference here is that Hasek transcended the position to being named the best player in the league once he had reached the very best of his abilities. And to show that it was no fluke, he did it twice (among other Hart and Pearson nominations).

 

[SeanConn]

In 1998, Roy was also nowhere near of his prime/peak years unlike Hasek though.

You do know that Hasek is OLDER than Roy right? So what's your point then... ^_^

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

You do know that Hasek is OLDER than Roy right? So what's your point then... ^_^

Bodywork mileage of course! ^_^
But keep trying.

 

[SeanConn]

Do I need to you remind you of the 1986, 1993, 1996 or 2001 Stanley Cup Finals? Single game... you gotta go with Roy.

In 1998 Roy was still elite (much like Ray Bourque he was elite from his first season to his last) but he wasn't at the peak of his abilities. Hasek was.

Again... Hasek is older than Roy, so I don't really get your excuses for Roy in 1998. They went head to head with the best teams their countries had to offer (Canada's team much better) and Hasek came out on top. Both teams wanted to win that game very bad... Hasek was just better. Without Hasek, Canada beats the Czechs easily in 1998... with Hasek they beat the Canadians, The Russians, and won the gold medal. In terms of "one game" situations, you don't get any better examples than the Olympics... NHL playoffs are seven game series on the other hand.

I don't need to remind you of the 1998 Olympics, because I'm sure you remember it. The one time Roy went head to head with Hasek in one game... Hasek came out on top. Hasek was the greater of the two...

 

[KevinRedkey]

using pure counting stats is really misleading though as the other 3 guys played in some seasons where scoring was much higher.

adjusted points it goes like this

Jagr 2080 (3rd all time) 1733 GP
Sakic 1679 (6th all time) 1378 GP
Yzerman 1650(7th all time) 1541 GP
Esposito 1508 (12th all time) 1282 GP
Crosby 1334 (27th all time) 943 GP

so in order to catch Espsiio Crosby only needs 174 points in 339 more GP

Yzerman 316 points in 598 GP
Sakic 345 points in 435 GP
Jagr 746 points in 790 more GP (I doubt he plays a full 9.6 season to get to Jagr's game total but he still might pass him in adjusted points and it's proable that he easily passes those other 3 guys mentioned as well.

Solid post, and you make some good points. It's probably closer than I made it seem. I still think he has a ways to go before passing those guys though. At best he's in the same tier, on his way to passing them.

 

[SeanConn]

Bodywork mileage of course! ^_^
But keep trying.

That's a crap argument and you know it. It's not like Hasek was resting in a hyperbaric chamber until he made his NHL debut... he was playing hockey in Europe.

The two guys are basically the exact same age, you can't rely on lame excuses like body mileage. Hasek was just simply better.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

That's a crap argument and you know it. It's not like Hasek was resting in a hyperbaric chamber until he made his NHL debut... he was playing hockey in Europe.

The two guys are basically the exact same age, you can't rely on lame excuses like body mileage. Hasek was just simply better.

Ya because he played on a 82 games schedule a year plus playoffs until he came in the NHL as a starter right...

Hasek had the better peak but Roy is simply the greatest goalie of all time, deal with it.

 

[SeanConn]

Ya because he played on a 82 games schedule a year plus playoffs until he came in the NHL as a starter right...

Hasek had the better peak but Roy is simply the greatest goalie of all time, deal with it.

He just simply wasn't... you're just being a biased Canadian. (Or American)

2 Harts bro... and was considered the best hockey player in the world for a 2-3 year period... Roy was never considered the best of all players in the league.

Better peak is really important, though I'm not trying to take anything away from Roy... Hasek was just the greater of the two.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

He just simply wasn't... you're just being a biased Canadian. (Or American)

2 Harts bro... and was considered the best hockey player in the world for a 2-3 year period... Roy was never considered the best of all players in the league.

Better peak is really important, though I'm not trying to take anything away from Roy... Hasek was just the greater of the two.

LOL to the bolded.

No Hart but still 3 Conn Smythe is better than anything else especially for a goalie because that means you won the Cup but yeah Hart...

Hart is for most valuable player to his team and not the best but nice try though. Anyway, Hasek would never have been considered the best player in the league against prime/peak Gretzky and Lemieux.

4 Stanley Cups as a starter is more important than just 1.

I don't try to downplay Hasek, Roy is just the greatest goalie of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

Solid post, and you make some good points. It's probably closer than I made it seem. I still think he has a ways to go before passing those guys though. At best he's in the same tier, on his way to passing them.

We will agree to disagree as I think only Jagr has a real case with Crosby at this point.

Even at that it's only an offensive peak one, 2 way and playoffs it won't be long until Crosby passes Jagr (for those that have Jagr ahead that is)

Among the 4 guys you mentioned Crosby hit the ground running at an elite rate from day one.

He also has by far, the highest level of play in his valleys compared to those 4 guys and also the best playoff resume as well.

 

[SeanConn]

LOL to the bolded.

No Hart but still 3 Conn Smythe is better than anything else especially for a goalie because that means you won the Cup but yeah Hart...

Hart is for most valuable player to his team and not the best but nice try though. Anyway, Hasek would never have been considered the best player in the league against prime/peak Gretzky and Lemieux.

4 Stanley Cups as a starter is more important than just 1.

I don't try to downplay Hasek, Roy is just the greatest goalie of all time.

The Hart is the league MVP... However, more importantly, Hasek also was awarded the Pearson both those years, which many consider the more important award anyways, since its voted on by the players... not voted on by the press.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

The Hart is the league MVP... However, more importantly, Hasek also was awarded the Pearson both those years, which many consider the more important award anyways, since its voted on by the players... not voted on by the press.

"The Hart Memorial Trophy, originally known as the Hart Trophy, is awarded annually to the "player judged most valuable to his team" in the National Hockey League (NHL)." but okay...

Yep you're right, he won Hart and Pearson when Gretzky was in his twilight years and Mario retired. He would never have won it between 1988-1994 though.

It won't change the fact Roy has won 3 Conn Smythe vs 0 for Hasek and 4 Cups vs 1 for Hasek (as a starter).