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Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

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Given Crosby's career as it stands, in addition this is what he would need to accomplish for me to take that discussion seriously.

4-5 Harts
5+ Art Ross
3+ Rockets
2+ more Cups (while being front-runner/winning the Smythe)
5+ top-5 scoring finishes
8+ top-10 scoring finishes
At least 5 more 1st team all-star, and another 3-4 2nd team finishes
Break the 2000 point barrier

Essentially Crosby could be there even without the peak if he held this past season as his average level over the next 8-9 years. Ha. Oh, and he'd have to maintain impeccable health.

Or double those numbers for any hypothetical player yet to enter the league.
 
Be consistently the best player in the world for 10+ years, be healthy, win most of the major trophies for your position during this time.

We're never going to see a player dominate the field like Gretzky did, but doing the above would put a player on par with Gretzky IMO.
 
Seeing how Toronto media works in cahoots with the NHL, we already see how much media driven narratives mean wrt to forming opinions that casual fans likely may not otherwise form - we rely on media for highlights, scoring updates, and opinion pieces. The league benefits from the media, who in turn sells more ads on stories covering star athletes. NHL's gain is a boon for hockey media too, as otherwise hockey comes 4th, 5th, or lower in some markets wrt viewership.

Bottom line, if Crosby, McDavid, or anyone came close to being an all-time great, we will have that shoved down our throats by now.
 
I don't think you can really be the GOAT, regardless what you do in terms of trophies, if you don't have a serious argument for being the best player people have seen.

And Crosby does not have a serious argument as the best Pittsburgh Penguin that people have seen.

So no.
 
When somebody wins 10 Harts, scores 93, 213, then we'll talk. The last time somebody even scored 70 was in the 1992-93 season. I remember when Ovechkin scored 65 and that was still nowhere near the record.

We're always going to see some all time greats, but it is unlikely anybody will ever dominate the way Gretzky did.
 
armani said:
Bottom line, if Crosby, McDavid, or anyone came close to being an all-time great, we will have that shoved down our throats by now.
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Exactly this, and it applies to all sports. The media narratives about GOATs have been in overdrive the past few years, largely because there's a financial (clicks, ratings, tickets) incentive to convince people that they're seeing something unprecedented.

"This guy's pretty good, not as good as that other guy, but y'know, pretty good" does not sell the same way as "this guy is THE GREATEST OF ALLLLL TIMMMMEEEE!!!".

The fact that there's not a serious push to immediately crown Crosby (or any other current player) the GOAT tells you all you need to know. If there was even the slightest argument, we would be inundated with it.
 
tarheelhockey said:
I don't think you can really be the GOAT, regardless what you do in terms of trophies, if you don't have a serious argument for being the best player people have seen.

And Crosby does not have a serious argument as the best Pittsburgh Penguin that people have seen.

So no.
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Agreed, Sid is #2. He will always be behind Mario, who truly is the GOAT...
 
Good God. He's not even in the all time top 50 in points. He'll likely not end up in the top 10. Harts, Rosses-not even in the discussion.

Stop the nonsense. Please. I beg:laugh:
 
HawkNut said:
When somebody wins 10 Harts, scores 93, 213, then we'll talk. The last time somebody even scored 70 was in the 1992-93 season. I remember when Ovechkin scored 65 and that was still nowhere near the record.

We're always going to see some all time greats, but it is unlikely anybody will ever dominate the way Gretzky did.
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That's kind of BS. Expecting anyone to break single season point totals set in an era where several goalies and defencemen could barely skate is pretty unrealistic. It's true of many sports. For example no one expects LeBron James to beat Will Chamberlain's 50.4 PPG or single season points of 4029 records to be GOAT. Those records were set in a different era. Jordan only ever hit 37.1 and he is considered the GOAT now.

That being said, Crosby will need serious longevity to be in consideration for GOAT. If he keeps up his current pace for another 6-8 years, he'll be in the discussion. He'll also need a couple more cups, where his team wins due to great individual effort on his part. In other words, legendary cup runs that will keep people talking for decades.
 
tarheelhockey said:
I don't think you can really be the GOAT, regardless what you do in terms of trophies, if you don't have a serious argument for being the best player people have seen.

And Crosby does not have a serious argument as the best Pittsburgh Penguin that people have seen.

So no.
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Why is seeing so important? Most people will say Michael Vick was the most fun to watch but he barely even touches Matt Ryan in the Falcons paradigm.

If you do it, why should it matter how it looks? I'm not asking for players like him to be the GOAT. I'm asking for a CHANCE for players like them to become the GOAT.
 
Don't think so. I think the next person, if there ever is one, to challenge for that title is going to have to be so unbelievably dominant a player in comparison to everyone else that it's almost unfathomable. I wonder if it'll ever happen...
 
He has zero chance. Gretzky won 10 rosses, usually by absolute ridiculous margins. Crosby either has to win more than 10 or he has to win like 8 by ~30pts each. Neither is going to happen. Gretzky was also the best goalscorer and playmaker every season. Crosby has 2 rockets, but overall his goal finishes are weak in comparison. Gretzky also didn't lose rosses in the middle of his prime like Crosby has to the likes of Sedin, Benn, Kane.

No chance he ever cracks the top 4, but if he keeps going strong then he will be a serious contender for 5th.
 
powelladam02 said:
The key question I'm asking here isn't so much asking if Crosby in a vacuum can become the GOAT. My question is more so, in this league of significant changes from the 80's to now; where the guys considered the universal GOATs played in an era where it was significantly easier to score; would Crosby becoming the GOAT even be something we would recognize if it actually happened?
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No, Crosby cannot be the GOAT. I mean, unless he was to defy logic, play until he's 43, win 2-3 more Cups and Conn Smythes, 6 more Art Rosses, 5 more Harts, 3 Rockets... oh, and start scoring about 150 while the other leading scorers are scoring 100 and 95. If Crosby could do all of that, sure, he's GOAT.

To answer your question though - what would it take today? I'd say something like this...

Assuming the rules stay the same, win 10-12 scoring titles by scoring 150-155 points when others are scoring between 90-100. It's not enough to just win scoring titles - to be GOAT - you need to dominate scoring titles over and over and over.

200 points is not realistic these days. But, for someone to come along and be BETTER than Gretzky, they would need to dominate for a decade+ by putting up numbers that destroy their peers (150-160 vs. 95-100 religiously). They would also have to win many MVPs, at least 5 Stanley Cups, and multiple Conn Smythe trophies. They'd also have to be good citizens, beloved by all, and past the eye test by mesmerizing fans.

Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Nah.
 
Doubt it, mainly because of perception.

The game has changed and advanced so much that you won't be able to do things to build legacy as easily.
 
powelladam02 said:
Why is seeing so important? Most people will say Michael Vick was the most fun to watch but he barely even touches Matt Ryan in the Falcons paradigm.

If you do it, why should it matter how it looks? I'm not asking for players like him to be the GOAT. I'm asking for a CHANCE for players like them to become the GOAT.
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It's not about who's the most fun to watch.

Denis Savard was more fun to watch than Gretzky, but nobody thought he was better. Patrick Kane is more fun to watch than Crosby, but nobody thinks he's better.

Who ever thought Michael Vick was the best QB? He had blatant holes in his game, which is why every year he was passed over for 3 other guys on the All Pro team. And even among QBs who played his style, you can watch one game of Cam Newton and tell that he's plainly better.

In the case of Crosby and Lemieux, find even one Pens fan who thinks Crosby is the better player. Lemieux was a different level of player, like Crosby is at a different level than Backstrom. It's not even up for debate, regardless of who wins what.
 
The potential was there but not anymore. He'll end up top 10 in the 5-10 all time range which is incredibly impressive.

Had he came into the league and the team that was assembled flourished...so I mean he's going with a productive Lemieux and a top line wing Palffy and Recchi and LeClair do it up right...and that continues...and there's no Steckel/Hedman incident...and Shero/Byslma don't derail 5 years of his price...the possibility would have been there.

Linemates, injuries, GM/HC issues...took a lot of that potential away.
 
Imagine a team that finishes last in the league for 5 consecutive seasons

In the 5th year they win less than 10 games in a 82 game calendar, scored about 90 goals and allowed over 500.

Then they draft this highly touted prospect, Mr. A. Mr. A is 6"6 and 250 pounds and can bench press 1500 pounds as well as being the fastest skater in the world.

Now, imagine that Mr. A starts playing for that horrible team as an 18 year old. He single-handedly takes that team to win the president's trophy and wins the scoring championship with 150% the total of the 2nd best scorer. Then they win the Cup.

Then he plays for 20 years, wins 10 scoring championships and 10 Stanley Cups.

That would make him GOAT.

I don't think we're going to see a player like this anytime soon.
 
Not really, no.

It'd require someone REALLY unique, like Usain Bolt is in sprinting.
 
Unless Crosby pulled a Bonds and suddenly in his 30s jumped a level above his previous all time great best, it's basically impossible. He would also, like Bonds, have to conceal the secret of his success from his league too. No amount of compiling can get Crosby into being the best player of all time. By level of play he can't touch Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr. By accolades he can't touch Gretzky. By longevity it is incredibly unlikely that he will match Howe. By team success he'll never match Beliveau. He's inevitably going to end up in the tier below the very best players of all time.
 
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