Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[Pick87your71Poison]

What I'll remember most about these 2 Penguin cups is how undeserving the Conn Any the winner was. That sticks out for me. I really think everthing about these cup wins is pretty boring.

Unfortunately that makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in what happened and its significance in the bigger picture, and what it means for Crosby's all-time ranking.

Sorry it was such a boring time for you though, must have been hard.

 

[daver]

People,
Crosby is arguably not even the most talented player in the NHL anymore. He has more of a track record than McDavid, but I think McDavid is more talented, and has a real chance to be better due to size difference. I don't think he's more talented due solely to that, but it helps. We have yet to see McDavid's peak, we have seen Crosby's already. Let's wait and see whether 97 or 87 is the better player. In my opinion, based on what has already happened, There is no way that Crosby can pass the following on my personal all time list(and I'm only listing forwards)
Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Messier
Jagr

Those are 5 Forwards that are easily better than him.

How are these two better than Crosby assuming you apply the same criteria for all three?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You realize the Gordie and Orr both played when there were 6 teams and 98% of the league was Canadian, right?

That kind of skews those award numbers you give out. The game is now international, and there are teams where people never even knew what hockey was when Gordie was playing.

I am old school, a purist, a historian. Above all, I am a realist. Do you think Gordie was so masterful that he would have been the MVP 6 times in a 30-team league?

You are kidding yourself if you think so. Gretzky, yes. Mario, yes. Gordie Howe? Sorry, Mr. Hockey. I love you, but no way.

For those making comments regarding your opinions that Crosby should not have won the Conn Smythe the past two playoffs...

He did.

Your opinions change nothing. Not a thing. Zero.

He is in the history books as having won it back to back, and will be for the rest of time when all of these games, Guentzel, etc are gone and forgotten.

Feel that sensation? It's the truth burning it's way into your reality.

Oh so history is only a thing when you want it to be and qualifiers only happen when you're okay with them. Which one is it?

So history matters when you have the shot to be bias is what this looks like.

Yeah Gordie Howe wasn't giving away MVP or scoring trophies to the Sedins or a Jamie Benn in his era...

I mean you might be right his weak Conn Smythe trophies probably will look better with time. Of course they will also throw out his accomplishments for sure if you can do it with Howe who was better than Crosby in every conceivable way at hockey.

We are in a weak era for superstars. Hopefully the youngsters that just entered the league are the answer for that in the game.

 

[authentic]

Oh so history is only a thing when you want it to be and qualifiers only happen when you're okay with them. Which one is it?

So history matters when you have the shot to be bias is what this looks like.

Yeah Gordie Howe wasn't giving away MVP or scoring trophies to the Sedins or a Jamie Benn in his era...

I mean you might be right his weak Conn Smythe trophies probably will look better with time. Of course they will also throw out his accomplishments for sure if you can do it with Howe who was better than Crosby in every conceivable way at hockey.

We are in a weak era for superstars. Hopefully the youngsters that just entered the league are the answer for that in the game.

I'm sorry but this deserves a big Lol.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Oh so history is only a thing when you want it to be and qualifiers only happen when you're okay with them. Which one is it?

So history matters when you have the shot to be bias is what this looks like.

Yeah Gordie Howe wasn't giving away MVP or scoring trophies to the Sedins or a Jamie Benn in his era...

I mean you might be right his weak Conn Smythe trophies probably will look better with time. Of course they will also throw out his accomplishments for sure if you can do it with Howe who was better than Crosby in every conceivable way at hockey.

We are in a weak era for superstars. Hopefully the youngsters that just entered the league are the answer for that in the game.

Oh don't you worry howe gave away lots of scoring titles in his prime.

 

[Shockmaster]

Oh so history is only a thing when you want it to be and qualifiers only happen when you're okay with them. Which one is it?

So history matters when you have the shot to be bias is what this looks like.

Yeah Gordie Howe wasn't giving away MVP or scoring trophies to the Sedins or a Jamie Benn in his era...

I mean you might be right his weak Conn Smythe trophies probably will look better with time. Of course they will also throw out his accomplishments for sure if you can do it with Howe who was better than Crosby in every conceivable way at hockey.

We are in a weak era for superstars. Hopefully the youngsters that just entered the league are the answer for that in the game.

Dude, you really need to get over 2009. We got over 2008.

 

[Hank Plank]

We are in a weak era for superstars.

No. Maybe we are in an era where the superstars are on teams you don't like.

 

[Shockmaster]

No. Maybe we are in an era where the superstars are on teams you don't like.

Pretty much this. It's not illegal to suggest someone is better than Gordie Howe. And I think a lot of the people are argue in favor of Howe probably weren't even alive when he played. They just see a Canadian player on an Original 6 team nicknamed "Mr. Hockey" and assume no one can ever be better.

 

[NJD28]

Crosby has 600 points to go and is 29. Sakic is done, forever, and played in an era when average goals/game was still in the high 3s vs. never breaking 3 in Crosby's career.

In Sakic's best season, Mario beat him by 41 points.

Actually, Sakic played the majority of his games when scoring was below 3.0 goals per game (12 of 20 seasons) and played five seasons when scoring was lower than it's ever been during Crosby's career. There were also 3.08 goals scored per game in Crosby's rookie season, all of which is fairly irrelevant.

For many people, longevity is a huge factor into what makes an all-time great. Sid isn't there yet. In another five, six years, sure - I could see putting him in the top five. Not yet.

 

[NJD28]

Pretty much this. It's not illegal to suggest someone is better than Gordie Howe. And I think a lot of the people are argue in favor of Howe probably weren't even alive when he played. They just see a Canadian player on an Original 6 team nicknamed "Mr. Hockey" and assume no one can ever be better.

Just as the majority of the people arguing for Crosby weren't alive to see Howe play either.

 

[end]

MVPs matter no matter the size of the league. You still have to be the best player in the league. It's arguably harder on a smaller league because you have to be directly compared to the 2nd (and 3rd) best player more often. Crosby plays Ovechkin 6 times a year, Howe played Richard 10-14 times a year.

 

[Seras]

Hard to say as I've only been alive for 36 years, but I'd say Sidney is one of the 5 best players I've watched in my lifetime

 

[lastcupever75]

My number five player in history got 10 Stanley Cup, so, no.

(Jean Beliveau)


Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Beliveau

pens fan here, i agree with your list. just swat 99 for 66

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Pretty much this. It's not illegal to suggest someone is better than Gordie Howe. And I think a lot of the people are argue in favor of Howe probably weren't even alive when he played. They just see a Canadian player on an Original 6 team nicknamed "Mr. Hockey" and assume no one can ever be better.

I will argue that Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux are better than Howe. It isn't a hard thing to do. I fully agree when it is said.

It isn't a 2009 thing to those saying it. I just don't think we have that caliber of player. Now McDavid does give me the similar chills to watching Gretzky or Lemieux play. A far superior player vibe that you just feel. Crosby has never given me that, while Ovie only does so in areas. I think that leaves you outside of the top 10 or just barely in it waiting to be passed.

I have a hard time seeing how Crosby passes Jagr for second best player to suit up for the Penguins. I guess it is out there, but I seriously doubt it.

Hull, Hasek, Beliveau, Messier, Jagr seem pretty unattainable especially given the significant chunks of time he has missed. It is what it is. Some believe and champion him, I have players I have witnessed first hand I still consider better than him and there is a study of the game and opinions from those I trust that place others in front of them. Hockey was played before Crosby.

He is one of the most industrious superstars in the history of the game. A grinders game with gifted hands, but ultimately he still lags behind some of the greats I have watched and some that have come well before him.

As I said not impossible but if he ranks in the top 10, I would think his spell will be short. I hope for a brighter decade over the next decade talent wise for sure.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hard to say as I've only been alive for 36 years, but I'd say Sidney is one of the 5 best players I've watched in my lifetime

Surprising you were alive to witness Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr and Messier.

 

[Shockmaster]

I will argue that Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux are better than Howe. It isn't a hard thing to do. I fully agree when it is said.

It isn't a 2009 thing to those saying it. I just don't think we have that caliber of player. Now McDavid does give me the similar chills to watching Gretzky or Lemieux play. A far superior player vibe that you just feel. Crosby has never given me that, while Ovie only does so in areas. I think that leaves you outside of the top 10 or just barely in it waiting to be passed.

I have a hard time seeing how Crosby passes Jagr for second best player to suit up for the Penguins. I guess it is out there, but I seriously doubt it.

Hull, Hasek, Beliveau, Messier, Jagr seem pretty unattainable especially given the significant chunks of time he has missed. It is what it is. Some believe and champion him, I have players I have witnessed first hand I still consider better than him and there is a study of the game and opinions from those I trust that place others in front of them. Hockey was played before Crosby.

He is one of the most industrious superstars in the history of the game. A grinders game with gifted hands, but ultimately he still lags behind some of the greats I have watched and some that have come well before him.

As I said not impossible but if he ranks in the top 10, I would think his spell will be short. I hope for a brighter decade over the next decade talent wise for sure.

He was in the top 10 already before Sunday night. It's just too easy to tell there's so much jealousy in your posts.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Surprising you were alive to witness Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr and Messier.

Where would you rank Sid all-time approximately, just curious? And my bad if you posted it earlier, I didn't see it in your last few posts I read or missed it.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I will argue that Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux are better than Howe. It isn't a hard thing to do. I fully agree when it is said.

It isn't a 2009 thing to those saying it. I just don't think we have that caliber of player. Now McDavid does give me the similar chills to watching Gretzky or Lemieux play. A far superior player vibe that you just feel. Crosby has never given me that, while Ovie only does so in areas. I think that leaves you outside of the top 10 or just barely in it waiting to be passed.

I have a hard time seeing how Crosby passes Jagr for second best player to suit up for the Penguins. I guess it is out there, but I seriously doubt it.

Hull, Hasek, Beliveau, Messier, Jagr seem pretty unattainable especially given the significant chunks of time he has missed. It is what it is. Some believe and champion him, I have players I have witnessed first hand I still consider better than him and there is a study of the game and opinions from those I trust that place others in front of them. Hockey was played before Crosby.

He is one of the most industrious superstars in the history of the game. A grinders game with gifted hands, but ultimately he still lags behind some of the greats I have watched and some that have come well before him.

As I said not impossible but if he ranks in the top 10, I would think his spell will be short. I hope for a brighter decade over the next decade talent wise for sure.

Your gonna be waiting a while.

 

[yababy]

Hard to say as I've only been alive for 36 years, but I'd say Sidney is one of the 5 best players I've watched in my lifetime

I'm 52 and he's not even close to the top 10 I've seen. Started watching in 1973.

 

[yababy]

Surprising you were alive to witness Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr and Messier.

And Patrick Roy!

 

[armani]

I'm 52 and he's not even close to the top 10 I've seen. Started watching in 1973.

I see some recency bias (or simple ignorance wrt Jagr of two-three decades ago) in some of the posts here, having watched Lemieux, Jagr, and Crosby through out their prime.

Crosby has one more cup as the captain and has been Pittsburgh's de facto best player. Jagr was never the best player during Lemieux cup wins, cuz Lemieux. But that doesn't change the fact that Jagr is the better, more dangerous player to either Crosby or Malkin. I don't see Pittsburgh winning three cups without one of Crosby or Malkin - these guys are both franchise centres and league leaders in points.

Crosby means a lot to the Pens success, him and Malkin won more cups together than Lemieux and Jagr. I understand that. But that doesn't change the fact that both Lemieux and Jagr were better players in their careers.

Crosby's not top-10 at this point, but he does have a good few prime years left to improve his legacy.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He was in the top 10 already before Sunday night. It's just too easy to tell there's so much jealousy in your posts.

Jealous of what exactly? How is the belief that he isn't a top 10 player of all-time brought on by that...

I mean I name two Pens in the top 10... It isn't that I dislike the Pens. Heck the owner of your team is probably my favorite non-Wings player of all-time.

Where would you rank Sid all-time approximately, just curious? And my bad if you posted it earlier, I didn't see it in your last few posts I read or missed it.

Right around 15 he has moved past Yzerman, Bourque, Bossy, Brodeur, Sawchuk and Sakic now.

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau
Hull
Hasek
Messier
Richard
Jagr
Lidstrom
Harvey
Roy
LaFleur
Shore
Crosby

The problem here becomes how many are truly attainable. I would argue it is tough to see Jagr falling to him as the cutoff point I struggle seeing him possibly getting beyond. He just wasn't healthy enough and while again he is an incredibly industrious superstar the wow factor for those in front of him are bigger in my opinion.

McDavid has the wow factor, we will see where it goes, but he is the great hope in my opinion to crack the top 10.

 

[Sombastate]

I'll probably get spit on for this but:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemeiux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Hasek

 

[Scrantonicity 2]

It's nice that you believe this. However, 95% of hockey fans in the world don't.


Sid is clearly not in the top-10 now. I'd say he has about a 10-20% chance of breaking into the top-10 by the end of his career, if a lot of things go right. (Which they might -- the NHL is gifting him Conn Smythes, apparently, so who knows what else they'll do to sell him?)

It's time for you to take a break from the internet.

 

[powelladam02*]

Can Crosby(or any great now and in the future) become the GOAT(emphasis on "can")?

I was watching the NBA finals along with the Stanley cup finals and I follow a lot of respected voices on Twitter. Before the NBA finals actually began, there was a legitimate argument over Lebron James potentially surpassing Michael Jordan. The views were that Lebron had beaten better teams and his triumph on the warriors last year was greater than anything Jordan ever did.

After the super bowl, Tom Brady won his fifth ring. It was almost a 180 with what people were arguing in terms of GOAT QBs. The discussion over GOAT QBs almost seemed to have immediately ended as soon at Brady ended up with one more than the guy he was getting compared to in Joe Montana. It really was that simple. Five rings? You're the GOAT.

Whatever your personal opinions of these great players is, my point is that it was the first time I saw supposedly set in stone judgements on the GOATs in other sports(Montana and Jordan) either completely crumble or start to finally chip a bit.

The key question I'm asking here isn't so much asking if Crosby in a vacuum can become the GOAT. My question is more so, in this league of significant changes from the 80's to now; where the guys considered the universal GOATs played in an era where it was significantly easier to score; would Crosby becoming the GOAT even be something we would recognize if it actually happened?

What is the standard now for a new GOAT? What would hypothetically make a player surpass Mario or Gretzky in the eyes of the public in this day and age? It can't be something as simple as breaking Gretzky's records for scoring because Gretzky played the vast majority of his career in the weakest era in NHL history when it came to stopping the puck in general. Playing against skaters in net with slightly more padding compared to the stacks of pillows goalies today wear. It's significantly harder to score nowadays and the talent in at goalie, has improved since the 80's. The rule changes, goalie equipment, and changes in strategies have made it literally impossible to break Gretzky's records unless we were to go back to that. So simple scoring records aren't enough now.

Is it cups? Gretzky only has four but how many more than him would Sid really need to start getting real questions of "the new great one?" Considering cups were the only real argument meatheads tried to make for Toews over Sid, perhaps cups are too arbitrary. What if Crosby had a significant lead on everyone else in cups, like having 5,6, or 7?

Is it trophies? Sid is NOW right there with Gretzky and Mario in Conn Smythes. Would Sid winning more cups and perhaps ending with the most conn smythes of all time give him GOAT status?



So in conclusion, the question I'm asking isn't "will Crosby retire the greatest of all time?" My question is more "If Crosby actually was the greatest of all time, would we know it? And if so, how would we know it?" Can it happen? Or are we still going to be arguing for Gretzky in the year 3000?

Hypothetically, this question could be asked for any next great player playing now or in the future. I just used Crosby because nobody right now has the same hardware that he does but it could also apply to McDavid or Matthews were they to end up with similar hardware down the road. This argument could also apply to Malkin or Kane.