Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[PJT]

Yes it is a horrible metric to rank players by for that reason and the fact that it completely ignores scoring environment. That was a pathetic analysis.

Crosby would have a better PPG if he had played in the 80s too, for example.

Pathetic analysis? Read the entire post next time. I'm objectively putting up Crosby's stats alongside other NHL legends who people think should be ahead of him in the Top 10, and his numbers and trophies achievements alone are proving for themselves the case that he arguably belongs in the #5 spot. You can argue that the PPG stat doesn't mean anything until your face turns blue, but the fact is that it's there and it's worth mentioning. And don't ignore the other mountain of data sitting along beside it. It's a pathetic analysis to look at the data and ignore that Crosby is already eclipsing these guys at age 29.

I wouldn't be hammering home this argument unless I really believed in it. I had season tickets in the 80s and 90s and saw some of the best talent play on the regular - Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Bourque, Messier, Jagr, Lindros, Bure, Lafontaine, Lidstrom, Francis. Crosby's skill and work ethic blows a lot of these guys out of the water. If his head wasn't such a target for the league and he didn't miss so many full seasons to concussions, he would easily have 4-5 total Art Ross trophies right now, maybe another Hart or two, and unfortunately that's probably what is required for you all to see this argument clearly.

 

[66871]

I think its a bit premature to be placing Crosby on any all time lists I mean he is only 29 for crying out loud.

I think its worth noting that Yzerman's prime scoring years were head to head against Gretzky and Lemuix. How many art ross's, hearts, and Richard's would he have had a chance at not going head to head with those two. Also he transitioned to a 2 way forward as shown by his Selke impacting his offensive numbers. Not trying to take anything away from Crosby rather just put Yzerman's trophy case into a little more perspective. Crosby's Piers are basically Malking, Overchkin, Kane... Let's put Crosby in an era with Jagr, Gretzky Lemuix and see him win a Selke later in his career. Put them both in the same draft though and I honestly don't know who you take.

Crosby top 3 scoring finishes: 8
Yzerman top 10 scoring finishes: 6

Yzerman had two 3rd place finishes in points (once behind Gretzky and Lemieux and once behind Gretzky and Messier). Only one other top 5 finish. So even if you take Lemieux and Gretzky out of the league, he doesn't have the same resume as Crosby.

EDIT: It's a similar story for Yzerman in terms of goals. In fact, to get him any Rocket Richards, the player you have to take out is Brett Hull.

So to summarize, the players you have to remove to get Yzerman two Art Ross trophies and two Richards are Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull and Messier. And even then, Crosby is better in terms of top 3, top 5 and top 10 finishes.

 

[Beau Knows]

I think its a bit premature to be placing Crosby on any all time lists I mean he is only 29 for crying out loud.

I think its worth noting that Yzerman's prime scoring years were head to head against Gretzky and Lemuix. How many art ross's, hearts, and Richard's would he have had a chance at not going head to head with those two. Also he transitioned to a 2 way forward as shown by his Selke impacting his offensive numbers. Not trying to take anything away from Crosby rather just put Yzerman's trophy case into a little more perspective. Crosby's Piers are basically Malking, Overchkin, Kane... Let's put Crosby in an era with Jagr, Gretzky Lemuix and see him win a Selke later in his career. Put them both in the same draft though and I honestly don't know who you take.

In 88-89 he finished 3rd behind Lemieux and Gretzky. So that's an Art Ross he could have had and potentially a Hart, he won the Pearson anyways.

In 89-90 he finished 3rd behind Gretzky and Messier in points. But Messier won the Hart.

He never lost a (retro) Rocket to just Lemieux and/or Gretzky although he did once finish behind those 2 and Bernie Nicholls who obviously had his numbers improved by #99, but that seems like a reach.

So I would say Yzerman likely adds a Hart and an Art Ross with no 99 and 66 in his career.

 

[66871]

In 88-89 he finished 3rd behind Lemieux and Gretzky. So that's an Art Ross he could have had and potentially a Hart, he won the Pearson anyways.

In 89-90 he finished 3rd behind Gretzky and Messier in points. But Messier won the Hart.

He never lost a (retro) Rocket to just Lemieux and/or Gretzky although he did once finish behind those 2 and Bernie Nicholls who obviously had his numbers improved by #99, but that seems like a reach.

So I would say Yzerman likely adds a Hart and an Art Ross with no 99 and 66 in his career.

The Yzerman vs. Crosby debate is, in reality, over. It will take folks some time to catch up but even at this stage there is nothing Yzerman did that Crosby hasn't -- and that's true even if your remove Wayne and Mario from the equation.

 

[PJT]

This concept is a hard pill to swallow for many because we all idealize the past. We grew up with Yzerman and Bourque and Messier posters on our walls, and the children in us cannot accept the fact that what were once real-life hockey gods and larger-than-life are in fact able to be bested nowadays by kids who are younger than we are. Hell, I have a tough enough time accepting that Crosby has captained 3 Cups now and Mario only captained 2.

 

[Chain Attack]

Crosby wasn't the reason the Pens won the Cup in 09. That was Malkin. In Game 3, where Malkin should have been sitting out for starting a fight in the last five minutes, he turned the series by assisting on 3 goals.

Wings smothered Crosby. Hell, Crosby wasn't even on the ice in the deciding game 7 after he tried cheapshotting Franzen and hurt himself.

Crosby was 20 years old in 2008 & 21 in 2009 going up against Zetterberg and Lidstrom the whole series. Of course it's gonna be hard to generate offense with those vets tailing you all over the ice. Crosby couldn't get away from those matchups on the road, and as a result the two Penguin teams combined for a 1-5 record at the Joe. Funny how that works eh? Totally different story at home. Crosby put up 7 points in 6 home games and the Pens never lost at home in the 2009 series. Malkin was indeed the better player but no shame in that.

 

[66871]

This concept is a hard pill to swallow for many because we all idealize the past. We grew up with Yzerman and Bourque and Messier posters on our walls, and the children in us cannot accept the fact that what were once real-life hockey gods and larger-than-life are in fact able to be bested nowadays by kids who are younger than we are. Hell, I have a tough enough time accepting that Crosby has captained 3 Cups now and Mario only captained 2.

Personally, I have never struggled with this. I remember some serious doubters in the press about Gretzky early on. People said he didn't have the size and strength he would need to live up to the hype. I ****ing loved the Oilers in the 80s. Every game was a clinic -- just beautiful stuff. History be damned I want great hockey. I hope Crosby cements himself at #5 over the next 8 years or so; and I won't be disappointed if McDavid comes along and displaces him shortly after.

 

[SportsDaily]

Sidney Crosby - Back to Back, we knew it's gonna be difficult

 

[Jets4Life]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Orr
5. Crosby


Crosby is in striking distance of Orr and Howe. One more MVP season or Conn Smythe, and he will be in the top 3. He leapfrogged Messier this year.

 

[66871]

. Wings smothered Crosby. Hell, Crosby wasn't even on the ice in the deciding game 7 after he tried cheapshotting Franzen and hurt himself.

The Wings hivemind needs to make up its [hive]mind. Either the Wings lost that series because Lidstrom was speared in the nuts or Crosby was ineffectual. Can't be both since Lidstrom was out there against Crosby basically all the time.

 

[Eisen]

Crosby is up against goaltenders with much higher average sv% so...

The level of defensemens average skating ability today is a million miles above what it was in the 90's.

They didn't need to skate, they could just bear hug you. And it was considered a strong hockey play.

 

[Up the Irons]

Cros is not a top 5 forward (Gretz, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lemieux, in that order)

he's with the next group, tho, in whatever order suits you. (Belleveau, Hull, Espo, Messier, Jagr, Lafleur)

if you include goalies and Dmen, he's further down, still. between 10 and 15.

 

[66871]

Cros is not a top 5 forward (Gretz, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lemieux, in that order)

he's with the next group, tho, in whatever order suits you. (Belleveau, Hull, Espo, Messier, Jagr, Lafleur)

if you include goalies and Dmen, he's further down, still. between 10 and 15.

Kind of difficult to take you seriously when you don't seem to know what position Orr played.

 

[XanderCrews34]

Cros is not a top 5 forward (Gretz, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lemieux, in that order)

he's with the next group, tho, in whatever order suits you. (Belleveau, Hull, Espo, Messier, Jagr, Lafleur)

if you include goalies and Dmen, he's further down, still. between 10 and 15.

Bobby Orr. Legendary forward while moonlighting as a defenseman.

 

[justaguy15]

Cros is not a top 5 forward (Gretz, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lemieux, in that order)

he's with the next group, tho, in whatever order suits you. (Belleveau, Hull, Espo, Messier, Jagr, Lafleur)

if you include goalies and Dmen, he's further down, still. between 10 and 15.

Like how your #2 forward of all time was a defenseman.

 

[bombers15]

This concept is a hard pill to swallow for many because we all idealize the past. We grew up with Yzerman and Bourque and Messier posters on our walls, and the children in us cannot accept the fact that what were once real-life hockey gods and larger-than-life are in fact able to be bested nowadays by kids who are younger than we are. Hell, I have a tough enough time accepting that Crosby has captained 3 Cups now and Mario only captained 2.

Good post. I think you're basically right - we undervalue today's players.

Anyone still trying to argue Yzerman/Sakic over Crosby is losing that argument.

 

[NEWFowler]

Hard to say if he's there, but its definitely a discussion now. He's passed the likes of Messier, Sakic, Yzerman and is now in the company of Lemieux, Jagr, Richard.

 

[radapex]

They dominated when they played compared to Crosby and still won. Crosby is a great player but he doesn't outshine other players by large enough margins to be considered all time great.Those guys played alot longer as well and honestly I think they were more skilled. Everyone today wants to say this player is better then so and so but really just because your the best now doesn't make you the best ever. Iv'e read people claiming whose better Mario or Crosby? To even ask that is a joke Mario was twice the player Crosby ever was. People love to pump current players and thats fine but in my opinion Sakic and Yzerman were better players. I watched those two and they just dominated like Crosby to me has never done.

That also played in eras where the league was less skilled/competitive as a whole, and where there was no salary cap to hamper the quality of teammates you could bring in to play with them.

 

[Bar Down]

He could have played with the best in any era.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

This doesn't hold up in other sports.

LeBron is dominating at a level arguably never seen before in basketball.

Jon Jones is arguably the greatest fighter of all time.

Similar things can be said of Tom Brady or Messi.

If other sports can have all time great players in the modern era, why can't hockey?

Great point.

 

[radapex]

Yzerman (in 22 Seasons)
3 Cups
1 Ted Lindsay
1 Conn Smythe
0 Hart
0 Art Ross
0 Richard
1 Selke
6 Top 10 goal finishes
6 Top 10 point finishes
16th in career points per game

Sakic (in 20 season)
2 Cups
1 Ted Lindsay
1 Conn Smythe
1 Hart
0 Art Ross
0 Richard
0 Selke
5 Top 10 goal finishes
10 Top 10 point finishes
12th career points per game

Crosby (in 12 season)
3 Cups
3 Ted Lindsay
2 Conn Smythe
2 Hart
2 Art Ross
2 Richard
0 Selke
4 Top 10 goal finishes
9 Top 10 point finishes
6th career points per game (yes I am aware this will go down once he hits the latter stages of his career)

Sid is already ahead of these guys in almost every way and has barely played half as long.

This, to me, is still so incredible. I know he's in his prime just now, but the salary cap era has been one of the lowest scoring in NHL history. It's not like there's a ton of opportunity to rack up points when the league is only giving up an average of about 2.7 goals per game.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Nope.

If you think 2 of the weakest Conn Smythes of all time puts him there, you're sorely mistaken.

Please explain to me how this is one of the weakest Conn Smythe's this year of all time? I would love to hear it.

Even if people want to be lazy and just look at points... it was the highest point total for a Conn Smythe winner in 7 years and tied for the 3rd highest since 1995.

Holy blind hatred with 0 basis in reality.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Cros is not a top 5 forward (Gretz, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lemieux, in that order)

he's with the next group, tho, in whatever order suits you. (Belleveau, Hull, Espo, Messier, Jagr, Lafleur)

if you include goalies and Dmen, he's further down, still. between 10 and 15.

If you are just going to parrot what other people say, at least take the 30 seconds to have some faint idea of who these players are...

 

[bombers15]

Another interesting consideration when talking about all-time players is longevity. Bossy and Orr (Dryden also) had extremely short careers, but this seemed to not be used against them. They dominated for a decade, and that's all people remember.

Then you have someone like Jagr who had a decade of dominance and then a bunch of years of being a decent NHLer. Is this a pro or a con? You'd like to think pro, but I'm not sure we all actually think of it that way.

So it'll be interesting to see how the final half of Crosby's career goes. If he's second fiddle to McDavid the whole time then that'll tarnish the legacy a little bit. We'll see.

 

[edog37]

If he did 250 points on the 91 Pens, it would be because Lemieux carried his ass and himself finish with 350.

Sid & Mario would compliment each other very well. Mario made Rob Brown a 49 goal scorer & Warren Young a 40 goal guy. Sid would absolutely tear up those standup goalies back then.