Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time
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kilowatt
the vibes are not immaculate
- Jan 1, 2009
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Hard to do when you're the best player of your generation. There's really no argument, he's the best.
Burnt Biscuits
Registered User
- May 2, 2010
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I have yet to be convinced Sid is a top 10 player, so I will say no to him being a top 5 player. In being an all time great longevity is also an important consideration and how he plays in his 30's will be an important factor in determining how great his legacy actually was. He will be rocketing up the all-time points leader boards, but at present he sits 77th in all time points behind Brian Leetch. Until he atleast cracks the top 20 in all-time points I can't take any top 5 player of all-time discussion seriously.
Laveuglette
Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
Doesn't mean he's not overrated. If the tallest guy in the wold is 9 feet, and you say he's 12 feet, you're overestimating his height even if he's the tallest man in the world.
Well said. I'm not saying Crosby is bad, he's just over rated in an all-time sense.
Laveuglette
Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
Same here. Crosby is a great player no doubt. Even his worst detractors couldn't say he's bad, it's nonsense. But he is overrated by kids who have never seen anything else, as simple as that. He's not "that" dominant to be honest, there are always other players in the conversation. His main feat is to be consistently among the best ones.
His fanboys are just plain annoying with their BS. Some people were arguing that he was close to Lemieux in another thread earlier. They just don't understand how deep history is when they call Crosby a top-5 player all-time.
I don't think we'll be able to have a serious conversation about his rank all-time until he has retired for a couple of years and other stars have come. Fans are too biased now.
I actually have trouble placing him above Jagr, and we all know where Jagr stood in comparison to Lemieux. That's just not a fair comparison to ever bring into any debate.
Laveuglette
Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
Jagr was better offensively by a country mile. Crosby is more well-rounded. Crosby has had more team success, but that's on the team, not just their best player. I'd say Jagr prime was somewhat better than Crosby's. Maybe he had a shot if he didn't suffer these injuries, but he did suffer them, so we'll never know. And for longevity, it's not even close for now. Jagr is 2nd all-time in points ffs, while not playing much in high-scoring eras. (or 3rd if you count the fact that Howe played in the WHA)
PJT
Registered User
Sure. It doesn't look too good for the legends, though.
I'm not even touching international play, since all of the guys from the dark ages didn't get a chance to play internationally. But it certainly tips the scale a lot more in Sid's direction.
Oh, and let's not forget that these guys were all playing against 5 other teams. Sid plays against 29 other teams, which is roughly 689 other players. Before 1967, the average was about 138 or so players in the league.
And even above all of that extra competition, not to mention modern training, skill-level, talent from all over the world, etc., Crosby still rises to the cream of the crop with the most impressive resume, not only compared to his modern-day peers, but holding his own against the all-time greats.
And by the way, yes, 2017>1957, because there are 24 more freaking teams in the league, and 4 grueling series of playoff hockey to fight through in order to get to the Cup. It's not even close.
Jean Beliveau:
(1) Art Ross Trophy 1955–56
(2) Hart Memorial Trophy 1955–56, 1963–64
(1) Conn Smythe Trophy 1964–65 (first year Conn Smythe was awarded)
(10) Stanley Cups
Highest Scoring Season: 91 pts - 1958-1959
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.08 - Ranked 29th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1219 in 1125 GP
Sidney Crosby:
(2) Art Ross Trophy 2007, 2014
(2) Hart Memorial Trophy 2007, 2014
(2) Conn Smythe Trophy 2016, 2017
(3) Stanley Cups
(3) Pearson Award 2007, 2013, 2014
(2) Richard Trophy 2010, 2017
Highest Scoring Season: 120 pts - 2006-2007
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.313 - Ranked 6th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1027 in 782 GP
Bobby Hull:
(3) Art Ross Trophy 1960, 1962, 1966
(2) Hart Memorial Trophy 1965, 1966
(0) Conn Smythe Trophy
(1) Stanley Cup 1960
(1) Lady Byng Trophy 1965
Highest Scoring Season: 107 pts - 1968-1969
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.101 - Ranked 26th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1170 in 1063
Maurice Richard:
(0) Art Ross Trophy
(1) Hart Memorial Trophy 1946-1947
(n/a) Conn Smythe Trophy
(8) Stanley Cups
Highest Scoring Season: 74 pts - 1954-1955
Career Points-Per-Game: 0.987 - Ranked 64th All-Time
Career Points Total: 965 in 978 GP
Eddie Shore:
(0) Art Ross Trophy
(4) Hart Memorial Trophy 1933, 1935, 1936, 1938
(n/a) Conn Smythe Trophy
(2) Stanley Cups
Highest Scoring Season: 35 pts - 1932-33
Career Points-Per-Game: 0.516 - Ranked 426th All-Time
Career Points Total: 284 in 550 GP
Doug Harvey:
(0) Art Ross Trophy
(0) Hart Memorial Trophy
(n/a) Conn Smythe Trophy
(6) Stanley Cups
(7) Norris Trophy
Highest Scoring Season: 49 pts in 1954-1955
Career Points-Per-Game: 0.485 - Ranked 441st All-Time
Career Points Total: 540 pts in 1113 GP
Howie Morenz:
(2) Art Ross Trophy 1928, 1931
(3) Hart Memorial Trophy 1928, 1931, 1932
(n/a) Conn Smythe Trophy
Highest Scoring Season: 51 pts in 1927-1928, 1930-1931
Career Points-Per-Game: 0.858 - Ranked 142nd All-Time
Career Points Total: 472 pts in 550 GP
Ace Card Bedard
Back in Black, Red, and White
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Ace Card Bedard
Back in Black, Red, and White
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MikeGrier99
Registered User
- May 20, 2017
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Roughly hammered out anyone remotely in the conversation, probably missing some and it's tough to order everyone. I put where I think Crosby will end up if he maintains a good pace the next 6-7 years adding a trophy or two to his case. If he does this I think he's in the top 10 range.
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau
Richard
Lafleur
Crosby
Hull Sr.
Harvey
Bourque
Hasek
Shore
Bossy
Esposito
Mikita
Roy
Hull Jr.
Coffey
Lidstrom
Jagr
Messier
Trottier
Forsberg
Yzerman
Sakic
Malkin
Dionne
Potvin
Robinson
Sawchuk
Brodeur
Datsyuk
Pronger
Ovechkin
Morenz
Francis
Savard
Kurri
Glenn Hall
Plante
Lach
Red Kelly
H. Richard
Macinnis
Bure
Perreault
Cournoyer
Iginla
Selanne
Kariya
Lindros
Leetch
Mahovlich
Moore
Apps
Chelios
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau
Richard
Lafleur
Crosby
Hull Sr.
Harvey
Bourque
Hasek
Shore
Bossy
Esposito
Mikita
Roy
Hull Jr.
Coffey
Lidstrom
Jagr
Messier
Trottier
Forsberg
Yzerman
Sakic
Malkin
Dionne
Potvin
Robinson
Sawchuk
Brodeur
Datsyuk
Pronger
Ovechkin
Morenz
Francis
Savard
Kurri
Glenn Hall
Plante
Lach
Red Kelly
H. Richard
Macinnis
Bure
Perreault
Cournoyer
Iginla
Selanne
Kariya
Lindros
Leetch
Mahovlich
Moore
Apps
Chelios
PJT
Registered User
This is fun - any other all-time greats we want to pit against Crosby in a stat shootout? Don't get me wrong, I love all of these guys and don't delight in tearing down their career achievements. I'm just trying to find an objective way to argue the point of this thread.
Steve Yzerman:
(0) Art Ross Trophies
(0) Hart Trophies
(1) Conn Smythe Trophy - 1998
(3) Stanley Cups - 1997, 1998, 2002
(1) Pearson Award - 1989
(0) Richard Trophy
Highest Scoring Season: 155 pts - 1988-1989
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.159 - Ranked 16th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1755 in 1514 GP
Joe Sakic:
(0) Art Ross Trophies
(1) Hart Trophy
(1) Conn Smythe Trophy - 1996
(2) Stanley Cups - 1996, 2001
(1) Pearson Award - 2001
(1) Lady Byng Trophy - 2001
Highest Scoring Season: 120 pts - 1995-1996
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.191 - Ranked 12th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1641 in 1378 GP
Sidney Crosby:
(2) Art Ross Trophy 2007, 2014
(2) Hart Memorial Trophy 2007, 2014
(2) Conn Smythe Trophy 2016, 2017
(3) Stanley Cups
(3) Pearson Award 2007, 2013, 2014
(2) Richard Trophy 2010, 2017
Highest Scoring Season: 120 pts - 2006-2007
Career Points-Per-Game: 1.313 - Ranked 6th All-Time
Career Points Total: 1027 in 782 GP
JimmyTwoTimes
Registered User
- Apr 13, 2010
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- 5,281
PensPlz
Registered User
PJT
Registered User
Fair enough. I would wager it wouldn't decline by much, though, and Sid still has a better trophy collection, along with equal-to or more Cups than the other two guys - and he's only 29. Those guys also may not have even been in the top-5 of their era, let alone in an all-time discussion.
PJT
Registered User
Ace Card Bedard
Back in Black, Red, and White
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Stats comaprisons don't mean much. Crosby would have no chance at beating Mario or Wayne for an Art Ross for example. Those two were in a different league.
I can't speak to any of the players before 1980 but since then I've watched the careers of so many excellent players that I'd put Crosby on the same tier as Yzerman, which is great. 1st ballot HoF but not top 5.
Kids like Bob Mckenzie and Darren Dreger? I mean, top5 is a stretch at this point, we all know that. But top10 is very, very reasonable. And many hockey experts agree on that, not just fanboys.
B2B Smythes+Cups in salary cap era is an achievment that really moves him from the top15 to top10. It is so special feat. He really only needs a quality longevity in order to keep his place in top10. If he wins, in addition to quality longevity, 1-2 more cups, and picks up a MVP+Art+Lindsay - combo -> bonafide top5.
Also, its also important to realize that Sid missed 3/5 of his peak seasons and then came back and won 2Cups+2Smythes+Hart+Art+Lindsay+Richard..and counting. That makes all this even more impressive. The missed time doesnt get him any more trophies, but its a good thing to keep in mind and certainly makes his story more special.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 15,770
- 5,308
Yes it is a horrible metric to rank players by for that reason and the fact that it completely ignores scoring environment. That was a pathetic analysis.
Crosby would have a better PPG if he had played in the 80s too, for example.
edog37
Registered User
How many Cups did Gretzky win in LA, St Louis & NY? The question isn't whether Sid could personally win a Cup on his own. The point is he's now the #5 player of all time.
Funny how the "take away Malkin how many cups does he win" question comes up with Crosby all the time, but yet Toews would have won 3 cups with a team of pee wees.....
Crosby on an individual basis and team basis has been the chalk player from the get go. More cup finals, 3 Stanley cups, more playoffs wins than anyone else. Plus World Cups, 2 Gold medals as Captain and of course, 2 MVP in SC finals. And he is 29. When he is done, he will have at least twice the SC wins over Mario. He will equal or exceed Gretzky in SC finals and SC wins with one more SC win. Any comparison to what the NHL has been with Crosby vs all the original 6 players is not a comparison. Far different era in economics and talent procurement. Orr and Crosby are the two best since they can do anything on the ice. NO position Orr and Crosby wouldn't have excelled at.
In all fairness, the average player today is miles ahead of the average player in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays, fourth liners and third pairing D can play and aren't useless plugs.
This explains why Crosby is not as "dominant" compared to his peers.
And the average goalies were just awful.
Don't get me wrong, elite players were elite. But today's game has much more depth.
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