Sidney Crosby hasn't won an Art Ross trophy after his age 26 season. Neither has McDavid. Will McDavid win more still?

[10YearsHaveGone]

including 2016-17 season (start of season)....at the start of the next season, 2107-18, McDavid took the #1 spot

This would mean that by the end of the 16-17 season TSN thought that McDavid was now the #1 player in the league.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby had the higher PPG all season before slowing down to get ready for another Cup run but still won the Rocket.

Gross. So Crosby can simply never just be. On top of every other excuse there has ever been for him, 2016-2017 joins the list of what if? According to you, a slow start was because he was injured—never mind that he had 10 points in his first 6 games back—always has that higher than normal PPG when wrapped around some missed time…always. Then his slow finish was because he supposedly was gearing up for a Cup run? Wow. The excuses never end.

Maybe McDavid told him to get lost because Crosby’s time was over and has been since 2017.

 

[daver]

You mean game 8? Maybe, but its pure, unfiltered speculation from you. It's interesting only one player receives such a benefit from you. Doesn't matter much, as the voters gifted him a Smythe anyway, and he had a strong enough team around him to carry his injured self to a cup (refs also helped the Pens against Nashville with an early whistle).

You were one stating McDavid was a better player in 16/17 based on awards with zero context. Just throwing the same biased thinking back at you.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

Crosby had the higher PPG all season before slowing down to get ready for another Cup run but still won the Rocket.

And how do you know why players were slowing down? You have access to Crosby's diary? Did he have a diary entry in march along the lines of:

"I easily could maintain a higher PPG than McDavid, but the playoffs are soon. Therefore I will slowdown in anticipation".

I do enjoy how deep into the favorable speculation you get to boost your guy. Makes for fun reading.

 

[daver]

And how do you know why players were slowing down? You have access to Crosby's diary? Did he have a diary entry in march along the lines of:

"I easily could maintain a higher PPG than McDavid, but the playoffs are soon. Therefore I will slowdown in anticipation".

I do enjoy how deep into the favorable speculation you get to boost your guy. Makes for fun reading.

When you add in playoff games in 16/17 Crosby ended up with both more points and the higher PPG than McDavid so I guess we can conclusively say Crosby was better given the argument you made for McDavid last year.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

You were one stating McDavid was a better player in 16/17 based on awards with zero context. Just throwing the same biased thinking back at you.

This all started off with you claiming Crosby was the best player in the world at age 30 (2017-18 season).

McDavid was very much the better player than Crosby in 16-17, and further cemented that spot in 2017-18. What context for those awards do you require?.

In 2017, at the age of 19 McDavid won the Hart with 147 first place votes. Won the Ross with a league best ppg. Was named to the 1AST as a Centre with 141 first place votes, and won the Ted Lindsay.

In 2017 Crosby won one of the weakest Smythe's in league history, and a 44 goal rocket. He was also on the 2AST as a centre.

In 2018 McDavid again won the Art Ross again with the best ppg (first b2b win since Jagr), won the Ted Lindsay, again named to the 1AST as a centre with 110 first place votes.

Bonus bit of fun. McDavids 84 ESP this year was the most in a season since Jagr's 95 ESP in 1996. Not bad for 20 years old.

In 2018 Crosby won nothing, and had 29 goals and 89 points in 82 games played.

There is absolutely zero basis for considering Crosby the best player in the world at age 30.

When you add in playoff games in 16/17 Crosby ended up with both more points and the higher PPG than McDavid so I guess we can conclusively say Crosby was better given the argument you made for McDavid last year.

Why do you insist on moving goal posts?

 

[daver]

Why do you insist on moving goal posts?

Just using the goal posts you used to justify McDavid being the best last year.

So what is the measure of best player?

Regular season PPG?
Regular season points?
Regular season plus playoffs?

 

[daver]

In 2017, at the age of 19 McDavid won the Hart with 147 first place votes.

And McDavid had an even worse showing last year in Hart voting last year despite playing 1 more game than Crosby did in 16/17.

But somehow he retains his best player status but somehow Crosby didn't despite outperforming McDavid for the whole season.

Textbook double standard.

 

[TheLegend27]

And McDavid had an even worse showing last year in Hart voting last year despite playing 1 more game than Crosby did in 16/17.

But somehow he retains his best player status but somehow Crosby didn't despite outperforming McDavid for the whole season.

Textbook double standard.

You assume that the level of competition is standardized. Ask yourself, is 2016-2017 Crosby finishing above the players listed below in hart voting(adjusting his 2017 scoring to year 2024)?:

144 point Kucherov
140 point Mackinnon
69 goal Matthews

2024 McDavid also finished worse in Hart voting than 2015 Tavares. I guess Tavares 2015>Mcdavid 2024.

 

[Toby91ca]

McDavid was very much the better player than Crosby in 16-17, and further cemented that spot in 2017-18. What context for those awards do you require?.

In 2017, at the age of 19 McDavid won the Hart with 147 first place votes. Won the Ross with a league best ppg. Was named to the 1AST as a Centre with 141 first place votes, and won the Ted Lindsay.

In 2017 Crosby won one of the weakest Smythe's in league history, and a 44 goal rocket. He was also on the 2AST as a centre.

Look, this is what I mean in terms of criticism. What's the point? Someone has a better year, or is simply better moving forward, doesn't make the other player garbage now.

Crosby was ranked #1 going into 2016/17 season and IMO deserved it. McDavid rightly won the big hardware that year and was ranked #1 heading into the 2017/18 season, hard to argue Crosby over McDavid, but that doesn't mean McDavid "was very much the better player" - Crosby had surgery in the summer so missed the first 7 games....by end of Oct he and McDavid were tied for PPG at 1.29 each, end of Dec Crosby was at 1.31, McDavid at 1.13, end of Jan Crosby was at 1.39, McDavid at 1.13, end of Feb, Crosby at 1.22, McDavid at 1.13, McDavid then caught Crosby in March, both tied again at 1.18 and then McDavid edged him out by year end at 1.22 vs. 1.19. So, they were very much close in terms of player performance that year. In terms of awards, yes, McDavid was the clear choice. I totally don't get the comments of Crosby slowing down because playoffs are more important, I suppose that's possible, but seems like an excuse.....but again, I'm not sure why excuses are needed.

Crosby was the weakest Smythe winner in league history? Really? This is why excuses are needed. I think you probably meant 2016 and not 2017 though. Why point to his 44 Rocket win as a knock on the guy, doesn't make sense. Was a lower scoring era, 2nd place guy had 40 goals.....Crosby had the most in the league....we'll knock him though because he didn't have 55-60...so Rocket doesn't really mean much?

I do get annoyed with the "if he didn't miss all this time" crowd, but same goes the other way with guys that crap on him. The reality is, he'll finish his career, likely only having 3-4 guys in the history of the league score more points than him...all of whom played in a higher scoring era. Doesn't mean I'd argue him as the 3rd of 4th best player ever, but he's certainly one of the greatest of all time, I'd have him top 10. McDavid will finish his career 8-10 years later likely and I'm sure I'll have him top 10 as well and will have him ahead of Crosby.....even if he doesn't win a Cup.

Same goes for Ovechkin, you have the same guys tearing him down and nitpicking, but at the end of the day, he'll finish with the most goals ever....

 

[TheLegend27]

Just using the goal posts you used to justify McDavid being the best last year.

So what is the measure of best player?

Regular season PPG?
Regular season points?
Regular season plus playoffs?

More points, higher PPG, more even strength points, and better +- on a far less talented team is a great start. Guess who met all that criteria in 2017?. I believe they were very close that year in ability, so debating this in detail is a wash. I’m just trying to show that there are arguments for McDavid just like there are for Crosby.

 

[Dingo]

Gross. So Crosby can simply never just be. On top of every other excuse there has ever been for him, 2016-2017 joins the list of what if? According to you, a slow start was because he was injured—never mind that he had 10 points in his first 6 games back—always has that higher than normal PPG when wrapped around some missed time…always. Then his slow finish was because he supposedly was gearing up for a Cup run? Wow. The excuses never end.

Maybe McDavid told him to get lost because Crosby’s time was over and has been since 2017.

i think that the upside of @daver s insanity is that we all see it.

i dont think he is winning anyone over.

 

[daver]

You assume that the level of competition is standardized. Ask yourself, is 2016-2017 Crosby finishing above the players listed below in hart voting(adjusting his 2017 scoring to year 2024)?:

144 point Kucherov
140 point Mackinnon
69 goal Matthews

2024 McDavid also finished worse in Hart voting than 2015 Tavares. I guess Tavares 2015>Mcdavid 2024.

The discussion isn't who was better? McDavid in 2024 vs. Crosby in 2017. The discussion is who was the best player in the world at those times.

No issue with calling McDavid the best player now even though he is not winning Art Rosses as is calling Crosby the best player after the 16/17 season even though he didn't win the Art Ross.

More points, higher PPG, more even strength points, and better +- on a far less talented team is a great start. Guess who met all that criteria in 2017?. I believe they were very close that year in ability, so debating this in detail is a wash. I’m just trying to show that there are arguments for McDavid just like there are for Crosby.

If you agree that MacKinnon, Kucherov and McDavid are in the best player discussion right now then this is reasonable.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

Look, this is what I mean in terms of criticism. What's the point? Someone has a better year, or is simply better moving forward, doesn't make the other player garbage now.

It all comes back to Daver stating that Crosby was the best player in the world at age 30 (2017-18 season). I disagree with this and think that McDavid pretty clearly took that title some time during the 2016-17 season. I never said anything about any player being garbage.

Crosby was the weakest Smythe winner in league history? Really?

I said one of the weakest Smythes. Both of Crosby's Conn Smythes are on the weaker side. Yes the 2016 Smythe is weaker than the 2017 Smythe, but they are both weak.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

So what is the measure of best player?

You are the one stating that Crosby was the best player in the world at age 30. What basis do you have for that?

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

More points, higher PPG, more even strength points, and better +- on a far less talented team is a great start. Guess who met all that criteria in 2017?. I believe they were very close that year in ability, so debating this in detail is a wash. I’m just trying to show that there are arguments for McDavid just like there are for Crosby.

And McDavid followed up 2017 with another slate of trophies in 2018 while Crosby had 89 points and won precisely nothing.

Daver is saying that Crosby was the best player in the world in 2018. I think it is obvious that McDavid passed him probably in 2017 and certainly in 2018.

 

[Toby91ca]

It all comes back to Daver stating that Crosby was the best player in the world at age 30 (2017-18 season). I disagree with this and think that McDavid pretty clearly took that title some time during the 2016-17 season. I never said anything about any player being garbage.

Totally agree, Crosby was definitely not the best player in the world for the 2017/18 season....but perhaps semantics.....does "Daver" actually think that he was? Or was he just ballparking, best player in the world up until he was 30 (I get Ovechkin was better for some of those years in between). I mean, he finished 2016/17 just before his 30th bday, so is that what he meant? Or is this a Crosby fanboy exaggeration....which is possible too of course. That's why I'll keep saying I don't get it....why do we need to exaggerate, why do we need to use "what ifs" - he's accomplished enough where we don't need to. There are no what ifs that are going to spin his career so well that he's in a conversation to be compared with Gretzky, so just leave it alone.....and it goes the other way as well.

All the said, if we are to look at the 2016/17 season, I don't think I'd suggest McDavid "pretty clearly" took the title during that season. I have no issue agreeing that McDavid took over the #1 spot by the end of the year....but there is also hindsight available....can't put myself back in May 2017 to remember what I would have thought. However, as noted, Crosby missed the first 7 games that year after coming off summer surgery.....so he played 75 games and finished with 44 goals and 89pts. McDavid's final 75 games that year saw 26 goals and 89pts.....I just don't think it was as clear as you make it seem......with hindsight it seems more clear the torch was passed though.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

All the said, if we are to look at the 2016/17 season, I don't think I'd suggest McDavid "pretty clearly" took the title during that season. I have no issue agreeing that McDavid took over the #1 spot by the end of the year....but there is also hindsight available....can't put myself back in May 2017 to remember what I would have thought. However, as noted, Crosby missed the first 7 games that year after coming off summer surgery.....so he played 75 games and finished with 44 goals and 89pts. McDavid's final 75 games that year saw 26 goals and 89pts.....I just don't think it was as clear as you make it seem......with hindsight it seems more clear the torch was passed though.

Of course we are looking at this with hindsight, it happened 8 years ago.

If McDavid had not followed up 2017 with getting more awards in 2018, we would not be talking about 2017 as the changing of the guard. But he did, so we are.

Just like with this year, if MacK sweep the awards this year, in 2032 we may look back at 2024 as the year McDavid's reign ended. But that hasn't happened (yet), history has yet to be written.

I don't rightly see how one can look back at history and not use hindsight.