Should Carey Price’s number be retired?

[nhlfan9191]

So you’re cherry picking those seven years and Sv%?

He played for defensive teams that focussed heavily on defensive structure. Therrien experimented with a more man-on-man defence in his first season (swarm D) but reverted to a cynical and stingy defense before long. They gave up low% shots by design.

Cherry picking just Sv% to say he was peerless is therefore not acceptable.

He wasn’t undisputed or peerless. If you can’t concede this we don’t need to continue this discussion.

The FIRST reply to this thread mentioned Koivu. And it wasn’t me.

I never once mentioned Theodore. Before you lob accusations you should be sure you have the right person. Rude.


There was no chance the Habs could’ve beaten the Kings. And the only chance the Habs had to beat the Rangers was if Price stole literally every game.

Bergevin.

Tampa was a juggernaut and even Price was rattled in the final series.

And in that one Radulov year Price was out-duelled by Lundqvist.

How do you cherry pick 7 consecutive seasons? Lol and it wasn’t just save percentage. He was tops in every category.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How do you cherry pick 7 consecutive seasons? Lol and it wasn’t just save percentage. He was tops in every category.

Only because he had Therrien and Gorges.

 

[GrandBison]

Anybody have the number of Molson Cups Price won? He's probably ahead of everyone by a fair margin.

 

[Bombshell11]

How do you cherry pick 7 consecutive seasons? Lol and it wasn’t just save percentage. He was tops in every category.

Bro

Carey Price was a really really cool guy who just wanted to please people and enjoy life. He was given a task that not many people can take on, clearly he was affected by montreal's pressure and that did not help him.

Im sure 99% of the fanbase can recognize that he could have done 5x better under different circumstances.

On top of that most of the habs greats were born here and were familiar with the culture of quebec, he was at a disadvantage right from the get go. There's no chill and relax mentality here, its all about who sucks the least, pay taxes, eat garbage food, fix your honda civic and try your best to not freeze during winter with the least amount of clothes.

No one is questioning his potential so lets stop dissecting segments of his career, lets just all take a breather, observe his career from an open eye and neutral perspective and lets all realize he sooked big ballz...

Just kidding,


There's too much energy that is being spent on this subject, why is it so important to have player jersey's retired this early, we should wait 20 years like we did with Savard and see whats up.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Bro

Carey Price was a really really cool guy who just wanted to please people and enjoy life. He was given a task that not many people can take on, clearly he was affected by montreal's pressure and that did not help him.

Im sure 99% of the fanbase can recognize that he could have done 5x better under different circumstances.

On top of that most of the habs greats were born here and were familiar with the culture of quebec, he was at a disadvantage right from the get go. There's no chill and relax mentality here, its all about who sucks the least, pay taxes, eat garbage food, fix your honda civic and try your best to not freeze during winter with the least amount of clothes.

No one is questioning his potential so lets stop dissecting segments of his career, lets just all take a breather, observe his career from an open eye and neutral perspective and lets all realize he sooked big ballz...

Just kidding,


There's too much energy that is being spent on this subject, why is it so important to have player jersey's retired this early, we should wait 20 years like we did with Savard and see whats up.

Nobody is saying that he won’t have to wait. Of course he will.

The question is whether or not you support the retirement of his jersey, not if it should be done next week.

The soonest it would happen is probably ten years from now.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Nobody is saying that he won’t have to wait. Of course he will.

The question is whether or not you support the retirement of his jersey, not if it should be done next week.

The soonest it would happen is probably ten years from now.

There’s a part of me that hope he doesn’t get his jersey retired. Not because he doesn’t deserve it, he does. But because like when he signed the $10 million dollar contract or started getting attention around the league, it’ll give the weird and loud section of our fanbase that could never stomach him a reason to ignore his career and complain he was overrated. Remember this is the same goalie that our fans would blame for a 1-0 loss in the playoffs. If we got shut out, the conversation then next morning would be about how Price could’ve stopped that one goal that went in. Lol and the sad thing is I’m not exaggerating.

 

[Moose Head]

Personally, I think only Morenz, Rocket, Beliveau, Harvey, Robinson and Lafleur should be retired. I think they’ve watered down the honour enough. The Habs should create a team HOF for the rest. Just too many greats.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There’s a part of me that hope he doesn’t get his jersey retired. Not because he doesn’t deserve it, he does. But because like when he signed the $10 million dollar contract or started getting attention around the league, it’ll give the weird and loud section of our fanbase that could never stomach him a reason to ignore his career and complain he was overrated. Remember this is the same goalie that our fans would blame for a 1-0 loss in the playoffs. If we got shut out, the conversation then next morning would be about how Price could’ve stopped that one goal that went in. Lol and the sad thing is I’m not exaggerating.

Who cares about them though?

I have no problem with people who only want cup winners retired. Don't agree with it, but that's cool. But the haters are a waste of time. I used to enjoy them posting because it was so easy to blow their arguments away and it'd wind up proving how good Price really was. I'm glad this thread popped up again here because it's another opportunity for people to see how good he really was.

A lot of people weren't around for the 1970s or 80s. They don't remember Lafleur having horrible playoff years after his prime (some of that was due to him being stapled to the bench by Lemaire but that's a whole other story.) They don't remember just how bad Patrick Roy was vs the Bruins (letting in the center ice goal was horrific) or that he cost us a bunch of series we should've won.

But they do remember 2010. They remember the Halak run. And they've never forgotten it. It's almost like cheering for Steve Penny instead of Patrick Roy.

All players struggle. All players slump. But on the whole when you look at a player's career, it comes down to the body of work, especially their prime and especially the playoffs. Do I really care that Roy crumpled against Boston? No. He was a killer goalie and won us two cups. I can forgive that other stuff, even the way he bolted on us. I have criticisms of him but he's well worthy of jersey retirement. Why focus on what he did wrong rather than look at his career overall? It just doesn't make sense not to do that.

One other thing: There's a huge difference between hitting 40 HRs at Coors Field vs hitting 40 at Oakland Colliseum.

Every player's career should be put in the context of the time they played in and the teams that surrounded them. Dryden I feel gets underrated sometimes. HIs 71 win is probably the greatest individual accompllishment in playoff history. He beat not one but two powerhouses. Yes, he had help but they were massive underdogs. So even though he was on powerhouses later on, he proved that he was more than worthy of being considered among the best ever. And notice that when he retired that dynasty was over. We all know about the clubs Price was on so no need to say it further but to put together a HOF career on those medicore (sometimes terrible) teams is an accomplishment all of it's own.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Personally, I think only Morenz, Rocket, Beliveau, Harvey, Robinson and Lafleur should be retired. I think they’ve watered down the honour enough. The Habs should create a team HOF for the rest. Just too many greats.

I think Plante and Dryden would have to belong to that group. Roy I would include as well but he could be negated because of how he left. Those three are all Tier One guys though. Dryden is personally responsible for beating Boston in 71. That alone is worthy of retirement.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Who cares about them though?

I have no problem with people who only want cup winners retired. Don't agree with it, but that's cool. But the haters are a waste of time. I used to enjoy them posting because it was so easy to blow their arguments away and it'd wind up proving how good Price really was. I'm glad this thread popped up again here because it's another opportunity for people to see how good he really was.

A lot of people weren't around for the 1970s or 80s. They don't remember Lafleur having horrible playoff years after his prime (some of that was due to him being stapled to the bench by Lemaire but that's a whole other story.) They don't remember just how bad Patrick Roy was vs the Bruins (letting in the center ice goal was horrific) or that he cost us a bunch of series we should've won.

But they do remember 2010. They remember the Halak run. And they've never forgotten it. It's almost like cheering for Steve Penny instead of Patrick Roy.

All players struggle. All players slump. But on the whole when you look at a player's career, it comes down to the body of work, especially their prime and especially the playoffs. Do I really care that Roy crumpled against Boston? No. He was a killer goalie and won us two cups. I can forgive that other stuff, even the way he bolted on us. I have criticisms of him but he's well worthy of jersey retirement. Why focus on what he did wrong rather than look at his career overall? It just doesn't make sense not to do that.

One other thing: There's a huge difference between hitting 40 HRs at Coors Field vs hitting 40 at Oakland Colliseum.

Every player's career should be put in the context of the time they played in and the teams that surrounded them. Dryden I feel gets underrated sometimes. HIs 71 win is probably the greatest individual accompllishment in playoff history. He beat not one but two powerhouses. Yes, he had help but they were massive underdogs. So even though he was on powerhouses later on, he proved that he was more than worthy of being considered among the best ever. And notice that when he retired that dynasty was over. We all know about the clubs Price was on so no need to say it further but to put together a HOF career on those medicore (sometimes terrible) teams is an accomplishment all of it's own.

A lot of people forget how inconsistent Patrick Roy was. When he was on, he was great. When he wasn’t, he was terrible. I still feel Price was probably the most talented goalie I’ve ever seen. Especially from a technical standpoint. His ability to break up other teams forechecks is sadly going to get lost to time as well. I know it shouldn’t matter what trolls think, but I always take the bait when I see it get brought up in a message board. If you don’t think Price deserves to be in the rafters with no cup, that’s fine. But those people never stop there. They try to rewrite history on his career to back up there claims.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A lot of people forget how inconsistent Patrick Roy was. When he was on, he was great. When he wasn’t, he was terrible. I still feel Price was probably the most talented goalie I’ve ever seen. Especially from a technical standpoint. His ability to break up other teams forechecks is sadly going to get lost to time as well. I know it shouldn’t matter what trolls think, but I always take the bait when I see it get brought up in a message board. If you don’t think Price deserves to be in the rafters with no cup, that’s fine. But those people never stop there. They try to rewrite history on his career.

Price was far more consistent in the playoffs than Roy ever was. And as incredible as those two cup runs are, Roy never beat a powerhouse the way Dryden did. We had very lucky paths in both cup wins. We avoided the Oilers in 86 and the Pens in 93. This doesn't diminish the accomplishment and Roy was superhuman in those years but he didn't have to face a Tampa type team or Boston's insane 71 club. In those runs he was insanely good but he was really inconsistent otherwise. 87 he gets replaced. 88 we lose to Boston - I don't blame Roy for that one, we lost Richer and the team just kinda folded. 89 he was great and Calagary was a better team. 90-92 he was brutal against Boston. A poll in March of 93 had the majority of fans wanting him traded. People don't remember this or weren't alive for it.

He also spent most of his career here behind some of the best defensive teams in the leauge. We were the Devils before the Devils. Two Norris winners, two selke winners, a defensive shell... great teams.

Roy is unquestionably one of the best goalies ever. But I do find he gets overrated. I don't think he's in Hasek's league for example. And I loved Roy and hated Hasek.

 

[ReHabs]

How do you cherry pick 7 consecutive seasons? Lol and it wasn’t just save percentage. He was tops in every category.

You chose an arbitrary span of time and also put words in my mouth and smeared me and you think you're not approaching this conversation in bad faith?

Between 2010-2011 and 2016-2017, Price is not peerless. He had a 0.923 and it was tied with Schneider and Thomas and within a single thousandth of Task, Talbot, Gibson, and Holtby, and within two thousandths of Lundqvist and three thousandths (0.003) of Luongo and Bobrovsky and Vokoun.

Not sure how else to disprove the assertion that he was peerless, he was not. There were many excellent goalies in that span, some of whom won the Stanley Cup.

As much as I hated seeing it, Thomas' short peak was the best peak since Hasek. Brodeur's consistency and ability to play the puck was the best in NHL history. Price was excellent but never peerless.

If you don’t think Price deserves to be in the rafters with no cup, that’s fine.

Yes that's the summary. The Habs immortalize winners. The Habs have a lot of winners and will hopefully have more winners to come. Now we see some commentators smear former winners and dynasty members to magnify Price's achievements, which is absurd. Winners deserve to be immortalized for leading the Cup parade in Montreal.

This conversation goes nowhere without accepting the reality: Price's achievements for the Habs fall short of rafters standards. If you want to lower the standards you have to state that outright. Many of us would resist and disagree for obvious reasons.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You chose an arbitrary span of time and also put words in my mouth and smeared me and you think you're not approaching this conversation in bad faith?

Between 2010-2011 and 2016-2017, Price is not peerless. Not sure how else to disprove the assertion. There were many excellent goalies in that span, some of whom won the Stanley Cup.

But none were considered as good as Carey Price. Price finished five points higher than Quick over that span for example. And Quick was on a vastly superior squad. He also knocked off Rask in a massive upset and did the same thing to Fleury twice.

Yes that's the summary. The Habs immortalize winners. The Habs have a lot of winners and will hopefully have more winners to come. Now we see some commentators smear former winners and dynasty members to magnify Price's achievements, which is absurd. Winners deserve to be immortalized for leading the Cup parade in Montreal.

That tradition will remain intact.

Carey Price is a winner. Won every individual trophy possible. He’s well deserving of the honour.

This conversation goes nowhere without accepting the reality: Price's achievements for the Habs fall short of rafters standards. If you want to lower the standards you have to state that outright. Many of us would resist and disagree for obvious reasons.

The Canadiens have a long history of winning teams. That ended thirty years ago. In between we’ve only had one player worthy of inclusion. I’m pretty sure they’ll honour him as they should.

 

[nhlfan9191]

You chose an arbitrary span of time and also put words in my mouth and smeared me and you think you're not approaching this conversation in bad faith?

Between 2010-2011 and 2016-2017, Price is not peerless. He had a 0.923 and it was tied with Schneider and Thomas and within a single thousandth of Task, Talbot, Gibson, and Holtby, and within two thousandths of Lundqvist and three thousandths (0.003) of Luongo and Bobrovsky and Vokoun.

Not sure how else to disprove the assertion that he was peerless, he was not. There were many excellent goalies in that span, some of whom won the Stanley Cup.

As much as I hated seeing it, Thomas' short peak was the best peak since Hasek. Brodeur's consistency and ability to play the puck was the best in NHL history. Price was excellent but never peerless.


Yes that's the summary. The Habs immortalize winners. The Habs have a lot of winners and will hopefully have more winners to come. Now we see some commentators smear former winners and dynasty members to magnify Price's achievements, which is absurd. Winners deserve to be immortalized for leading the Cup parade in Montreal.

This conversation goes nowhere without accepting the reality: Price's achievements for the Habs fall short of rafters standards. If you want to lower the standards you have to state that outright. Many of us would resist and disagree for obvious reasons.

7 years isn’t “arbitrary.” That’s the normal length of most players prime. And it’s a big sample size, it’s not just cherry picking single season save percentages like you were attempting to do. You just don’t like it because it doesn’t tell the story you want it too. And I don’t care how many “winners” we had. Only someone smoking crack doesn’t think Price has multiple cups playing on the teams we had in 1993 and before that. That’s what makes it unfair to compare him to past ghosts of our past. And nobody is smearing your name but yourself. All I’ve done is throw back the flaws in the logic you’re trying to use.

 

[ReHabs]

7 years isn’t “arbitrary.” That’s the normal length of most players prime. And it’s a big sample size, it’s not just cherry picking single season save percentages like you were doing. You just don’t like it because it doesn’t tell the story you want it too.

I chose the single season sv% to identify the absolute peak and to prove that he was never peerless -- the seasons before and the seasons after had similar performances from his peers. Very relevant in analysis.

Why did you state the wrong Sv%? Honest mistake or bad faith attempt to win the argument?

And I don’t care how many “winners” we had. Only someone smoking crack doesn’t think Price has multiple cups playing on the teams we had 1993 and before that.

We're talking about the real world and real events and not hypotheticals.

 

[ReHabs]

And nobody is smearing your name but yourself. All I’ve done is throw back the flaws in the logic you’re trying to use.

So far you've lied about what I've said, you've lied about my arguments, and you've lied about Price's stats. I'm not sure why you're approaching the discussion this way and won't attempt to guess what you're trying to get at with it. I'm as big a Price fan as it gets too, but the insinuation that everyone who disagrees with you is a troll is really just super narcissistic.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I chose the single season sv% to identify the absolute peak and to prove that he was never peerless -- the seasons before and the seasons after had similar performances from his peers. Very relevant in analysis.

Why did you state the wrong Sv%? Honest mistake or bad faith attempt to win the argument?

Carey Price had the best save percentage over that span. And did it on far worse clubs than those others.

We're talking about the real world and real events and not hypotheticals.

Hypotheticals are not required.

His resume is as good or better than many who are already retired.

 

[digmor crusher]

HOF sure, retired, not a chance.

 

[nhlfan9191]

So far you've lied about what I've said, you've lied about my arguments, and you've lied about Price's stats. I'm not sure why you're approaching the discussion this way and won't attempt to guess what you're trying to get at with it. I'm as big a Price fan as it gets too, but the insinuation that everyone who disagrees with you is a troll is really just super narcissistic.

I confused you with another poster who brought up Theodore. That wasn’t me lying, it was just a mix up. But you brought up Koivu multiple times which is equally ridiculous. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Those two things aren’t the same. One was a forward that wasn’t a PPG player and the other is going to be a lock for the Hall of fame and won every individual award a goalie can win other then the cup which is a team award. I don’t get where you’re getting the trolling aspect of my debate or calling me a narcissist. Being well versed on Price’s career doesn’t make me a narcissist.

 

[ReHabs]

I confused you with another poster who brought up Theodore. That wasn’t me lying, it was just a mix up. But you brought up Koivu multiple times which is equally ridiculous. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Those two things aren’t the same. One was a forward that wasn’t a PPG player and the other is going to be a lock for the Hall of fame and won every individual award a goalie can win other then the cup which is a team award. I don’t get where you’re getting the trolling aspect of my debate or calling me a narcissist. Being well versed on Price’s career doesn’t make me a narcissist.

Some others brought up Koivu and I included him in the general response: none of them get their numbers retired. You bring up the Koivu point again and again even though I accepted to put that comparison aside. I've evaluated Price and only Price for you. Not sure why you think you need to dredge Koivu up again when it's been settled and accepted that they shouldn't be compared. I mean, I know why you do it, it's pretty transparent. You post the wrong Sv% as if none of us can verify... I don't get it...

How are you well versed on Price's career if you're going to call him peerless and pass along the wrong stats?

 

[Bombshell11]

In all honesty

Koivu
Subban

For me they did more with less, i dont care about longevity, this is my opinion.

I dont want to debate it.

Koivu was the best player and was captain for 10 years, he played through cancer, gor chemo, injured an eye and got other serious injuries. What this guy went through is ridiculous. He should be first in line for a jersey retirement.

Subban, went through alot of managerial adversity and still delivered. He got a Norris while being masively underpaid.... hello? What are even talking about.
if you dont care Halak stole Prices job in 2010 then i equally dont care that Subban only played 7 years for us. Each year of Subban was worth 3 in my MySQL Database.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Some others brought up Koivu and I included him in the general response: none of them get their numbers retired. You bring up the Koivu point again and again even though I accepted to put that comparison aside. I've evaluated Price and only Price for you. Not sure why you think you need to dredge Koivu up again when it's been settled and accepted that they shouldn't be compared. I mean, I know why you do it, it's pretty transparent. You post the wrong Sv% as if none of us can verify... I don't get it...

How are you well versed on Price's career if you're going to call him peerless and pass along the wrong stats?

I pointed out Koivu to show your agenda. Nobody debating in good faith is trying to use that as an argument to begin with. I did admittedly screw up the numbers but the point still stands. Only Tim Thomas who played 3 of those 7 seasons was ahead of him which is a significantly smaller sample size.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

In all honesty

Koivu
Subban

For me they did more with less, i dont care about longevity, this is my opinion.

I dont want to debate it.

As much as I love Subban - he has legit HOF talent - he wasn’t here long enough and didn’t put up a HOF career. He should’ve been a Hab for life.

Koivu just didn’t have a good enough career.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I pointed out Koivu to show your agenda. Nobody debating in good faith is trying to use that as an argument to begin with. I did admittedly screw up the numbers but the point still stands. Only Tim Thomas who played 3 of those 7 seasons was ahead of him which is a significantly smaller sample size.

Thomas doesn’t count as he doesn’t meet the minimums number of games. It’s silly to include him. He wasn’t even in the league at that point.

It’s the same if you look at a player over the decade. I put in a minimum of 450 games. That’s 45 games per season average- not a high bar. It makes no sense to let guys with like 150 games to be on the same field as a guy who’s played 500.

 

[ReHabs]

I pointed out Koivu to show your agenda. Nobody debating in good faith is trying to use that as an argument to begin with. I did admittedly screw up the numbers but the point still stands. Only Tim Thomas who played 3 of those 7 seasons was ahead of him which is a significantly smaller sample size.

When others mention Koivu, that's not an agenda. When I mention Koivu to make a generalized response that no non-cup-winner should get their numbers retired, you claim that's a bad faith argument and then refuse to stop bringing it up even after I withdraw it. I find that in bad faith but you knew that already.

The point doesn't stand. Holtby, Lundqvist, Quick, and others were right up there with Price. Thomas clearly out performed Price. Price was never the best player in the NHL (an argument made in this thread) and he was never peerless as a goalie in the NHL and you can't prove otherwise because it's just a fact. If you had any authentic and validated evidence or stats you would've showed that by now.

Even with a filter of 300gp, over the span YOU chose, Price was not peerless. It seems to me Lundqvist outperforms him -- he's below Price by two thousandths in Sv% and two thousandths in GAA but faced over 600 more shots and had more games and wins. Holtby is right up there too.

Now: We LOVED Price and we KNEW Price was underrated because of the mediocre team he had but he never had the weakest team and he never had the worst defence and so on. There is really no context that makes Price peerless, so I think that argument is void.

What's left is Price-for-the-Habs and not Price-in-the-NHL and at that point, it's subjective. For the Habs you want to lower the standards for retirement so to include him and I don't because I don't think there's any need to do so. No need to smear me for it.