Should Carey Price’s number be retired?

[BehindTheTimes]

People saying no are living in the past dynasties with unreal expectations and forget that Price had a trash team for 90% of his career. Stanley cup being a necessity is unfair in a team game, especially 32 team parity leagues. He was known as one of if not the best goalie in the world for at least half his career.

Montreal bias here.

I was never alive for any dynasty, so surely that is not the case.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

In the same way that I don't think a HOF means you should get retired it's the same way around for me. I don't think not making the HOF should disqualify you from having your jersey retired. Does anyone think a guy like Daneyko shouldn't have his number retired in Jersey?

Like if Brendan Gallagher played 20 seasons here, over a 1000 games and won a couple of cups while being a key cog as the same level of player, I'd say retire his jersey. It's all about club legacy.

I think you have to be a really exceptional player. HOF minimum.

I have no problem with Gallagher night or honouring him some way but I’d never retire his Jersey.

Speaking of Jersey, I’d never have retired Daneyko either. Brodeur, Nidermayer, Stevens? Sure.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Quick is the one who brought RVH into popularity and pretty much the entire goalie landscape shifted to try to pick it up. So that piece actually belongs to Quick the way the Butterfly traces back to Roy.

However, what Price did influence in the goaltending position (picking the reins from Brodeur) was the puck handling piece but more than that, similar to Dryden, the temperament. That nothing bothers me, I'm never rattled, I'm economical and I'm in control aura.

Most goalies will look at that era and be influenced by Lundqvist Price and Quick.

But I've made my point already. Price deserves his number retired. First ballot hall of famer. Has the hardware. Was the best player every year he played a healthy season on the Habs. Had playoff success. And is at the top, if not the top, of every major goaltending category in franchise history.

Goaltending has never been worse in Canada, so whatever influence they had wasn’t very much.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Goaltending has never been worse in Canada, so whatever influence they had wasn’t very much.

Being influenced and inspired can't overcome Hockey Canada spending money covering up rape and teaching Giguere techniques

 

[Bombshell11]

I just provided you with the stats supporting his case. If you don’t think it does, tell us why.

I’m always open to good arguments. You haven’t provided any.

You said he wasn’t close to those other players and I showed you their resumes. I asked you to explain and you didn’t answer. If you disagree that’s cool, tell us why.

The only reason to not include him is the fact that he has no cup. On that front, I disagree. But people are entitled to their own opinion there.

-What you're providing are subjective arguments and selective data to backup your biased arguments. When you look at someone's career you have to take the whole but you choose to ignore the bad parts. No one can argue with irrationality, you just want to prove your points by all means necessary.

-Just the fact you're comparing skaters to a goalie is highlighting the bias that is fuelling your arguments. Goalies play full 60 minutes while skaters have to share their ice time with others which translates to less exposure.

-You insulted Dickie Moore by calling him a tier 2 player when you very well know that he was playing behind Richard's spotlight for most of his career and when Richard was absent he carried the team on his back and won a cup for us.

-Same thing for Savard, he suffered from 2 serious injuries early on in his career and played next to Larry. He dint have the numbers of a mega star but saying he was a tier 2 is just non sense.

-You're putting Price way ahead of the team and i dont like that, i dont understand why, he was protected by the club, he received all the support he needed to be the best he could be individually.

I just dont get where this energy is coming from

 

[ReHabs]

They aren’t even in the same league so no, they aren’t in the same sentiment. I have made the argument, you choose to ignore it.

What?

You’re cherry picking stats that fit your narrative.

What goalie stats support the “objective narrative” if GAA, Sv%, and Ws is “cherry picking”? Help me out here.

Price was the best statistical goaltender from 2010-2017. That’s 8 seasons.

He was the best by what metrics? Why those years? What did he win? By what margin was he ‘the best’? Was recognized as ‘the best’ in every one of those years? Was he recognized as ‘the best’ in a majority of those years?

In 2010 he lost his fkn job to Halak.

That is a significant span of time. Why aren’t you bringing up the graph for that instead of trying to debate who had the better single season save percentage since the lockout?

I was responding to the spurious claim that Carey Price was the best player/goalie in the NHL. He was never an undisputed or peerless number 1. He was incredible good for a short peak but was not peerless.

That isn’t Saku Koivu whose a forward that didn’t even have a single PPG season in his career.

If you don’t want to talk about Koivu then forget about Koivu and move on.

Show me the rosters each of those goalies had?

The argument was “he was the best player in the NHL”. Roster doesn’t matter at that point.

He has no arguments that actually work in his favour so people dig for his non-Habs results like Olympics and whatnot. It goes to show his resume comes short.

 

[Miller Time]

I think if you have to dig into Sochi and WJC to justify his jersey retirement for the Montreal Canadiens then you have already answered the question. Those apply to his HOF inclusion, they are meaningless when it comes to raising his jersey to the rafters.

I agree that they aren't directly relevant to the team... But imo they are relevant to making the case for his level of excellence.

From there, it's a question of how much the teams W/L success vs the excellence of his performance while wearing the Habs jersey is driving the decision.

Id be fine if they did, and understand if they don't. Regardless, he was the best goalie of his era imo. Injuries shortened the run and poor management stifled the playoff/cup results.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

-What you're providing are subjective arguments and selective data to backup your biased arguments.

Those are standard stats you’d use for anyone’s career. Hart and Vezina finishes, playoff numbers, stats vs peers, teams a player is on. Standard stuff. He qualifies, no doubt.

It’s ironic you’d scream bias when you ignore the standard numbers and try to have us focus on 2010. That reeks of bias, especially when you don’t do the same thing with other players.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What?

What goalie stats support the “objective narrative” if GAA, Sv%, and Ws is “cherry picking”? Help me out here.

From 10-17 he’s easily the best goalie in the league. Over the 2010s total, only Rask is better in save percentage for goalies with 450 games and it’s only by one point. And he played on a powerhouse.

He was the best by what metrics? Why those years? What did he win? By what margin was he ‘the best’? Was recognized as ‘the best’ in every one of those years? Was he recognized as ‘the best’ in a majority of those years?

Again - By save percentage for a good seven years. And he did it on lousy teams. Over the entire decade he’s second only to Rask. They were also behind vastly different teams.

In 2010 he lost his fkn job to Halak.

In 87 Roy lost his job to Hayward. Same age as Price was in 2010. Roy also lost us several playoff series we should’ve won.

I was responding to the spurious claim that Carey Price was the best player/goalie in the NHL. He was never an undisputed or peerless number 1. He was incredible good for a short peak but was not peerless.

He absolutely was the undisputed best goalie in the league for most of the 2010s.

 

[Lshap]

Habs already have banners that reflect a strict Cup-or-nothing standard - they're the team banners. We only honour Stanley Cup winners. I'd guess 99.9% of fans agree we should keep that high standard for teams.

So what's the issue with immortalizing great players just for being great players? Stanley Cups are already well represented with an exclusive row of banners. As for players, I doubt there was actually a policy restricting retired numbers to Cup winners – it probably just worked out that way because players who wore the "CH" long enough ended up winning one.

Today, a half-century of players could come and go between Cup wins. It's time to re-evaluate whether a banner requires greatness plus a Cup, or if that combination was lucky timing from a bygone era. Personally, it seems illogical to ignore decades of legends because there are no more team dynasties for them to play on.

No-Cup-No-Banner is great for team banners. It's a wasted opportunity and lost history if applied to modern players. Price is the most worthy player we've had in 30 years. He deserves to be remembered alongside the other greats hanging up there.

 

[Bombshell11]

Those are standard stats you’d use for anyone’s career. Hart and Vezina finishes, playoff numbers, stats vs peers, teams a player is on. Standard stuff. He qualifies, no doubt.

It’s ironic you’d scream bias when you ignore the standard numbers and try to have us focus on 2010. That reeks of bias, especially when you don’t do the same thing with other players.

2010 was simply the strongest and most obvious counter argument which you choose to ignore. Huet and Budaij are the other 2 but they're less obvious.

And im sorry but you're the one who's dissecting parts of his career, you started this debate, not me, the irony here is you trying to blame me for something that you instigated.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

2010 was simply the strongest and most obvious counter argument which you choose to ignore. Huet and Budaij are the other 2 but they're less obvious

And im sorry but you're the one who's dissecting parts of his career, you started this debate, not me, the irony here is you trying to blame me for something that you instigated.

Again, I’m using standard stats that everyone would use.

You’re cherry picking slumps and it’s silly. If you do this for Price you have to do it for all players. They all go through slumps. They all have rough patches. It doesn’t mean you exclude them from the HOF or jersey retirement. If it does then nobody gets it.

 

[Toene]

Subban was the best player and Halak stole his spot

He had 1 year where he was truly above everyone else. Not enough to get a jersey retirement in mtl

I'm not sure I want his jersey retired but this post is very dishonest. He had great numbers on horribad teams. I'm astonished how in 2024 it's still not clear to people how much he propped up the Habs skaters during his career.

Montreal had a laughable offense and a mediocre defense. Subban/Weber and Markov were very good but the rest... Josh Gorges played top-4 minutes. FFS.

I guess Petry was fine for a few years. The best defense he had was in 2021 playoffs, at the tail-end of his career. And what did he do? Dragged his team to the finals despite barely getting 2 goals a game from his skaters.

He went to the ECF and would've went to the finals in 2014 and maybe won a cup if not for the injury. His forwards? Eller, Rene Bourque, Weise. I guess Gally, Patches, Plek were okay? That's a sad bunch.

 

[BLONG7]

I'm not sure I want his jersey retired but this post is very dishonest. He had great numbers on horribad teams. I'm astonished how in 2024 it's still not clear to people how much he propped up the Habs skaters during his career.

Montreal had a laughable offense and a mediocre defense. Subban/Weber and Markov were very good but the rest... Josh Gorges played top-4 minutes. FFS.

I guess Petry was fine for a few years. The best defense he had was in 2021 playoffs, at the tail-end of his career. And what did he do? Dragged his team to the finals despite barely getting 2 goals a game from his skaters.

He went to the ECF and would've went to the finals in 2014 and maybe won a cup if not for the injury. His forwards? Eller, Rene Bourque, Weise. I guess Gally, Patches, Plek were okay? That's a sad bunch.

Thx for brining some perspective to the discussion.
Price................had zero hall of famers playing in front of him, ever, yet somehow has become one himself.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I'm not sure I want his jersey retired but this post is very dishonest. He had great numbers on horribad teams. I'm astonished how in 2024 it's still not clear to people how much he propped up the Habs skaters during his career.

Montreal had a laughable offense and a mediocre defense. Subban/Weber and Markov were very good but the rest... Josh Gorges played top-4 minutes. FFS.

I guess Petry was fine for a few years. The best defense he had was in 2021 playoffs, at the tail-end of his career. And what did he do? Dragged his team to the finals despite barely getting 2 goals a game from his skaters.

He went to the ECF and would've went to the finals in 2014 and maybe won a cup if not for the injury. His forwards? Eller, Rene Bourque, Weise. I guess Gally, Patches, Plek were okay? That's a sad bunch.

Josh Gorges was a fine 2nd pair defecemen. Its funny, everyone said Price carried bad teams to the playoffs and we would have been lottery teams if not for him, except for when we were lottery teams with him, He gets credit for all the teams success and is divorced from all the teams failures.

IMO, he was a very good goaltender, but he’s the most overrated player of my lifetime. All because he looked good positionally. He was the best goalie in the league for one season and would have likely repeated again the following season, but got hurt. This idea he was the best from 2010-2017 is pure fantasy. He couldn’t even keep his starters role in 2010.

Then we have these claims of how influential he’s been at the position while goaltending in Canada has been a complete mess. Its the weakest it’s ever been. You would expect someone so influential to have better results, but we always justify Carey’s woes with the team he’s played on. Nevermind the fact he played behind two Norris calibre dmen in Markov/Subbsn.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Josh Gorges was a fine 2nd pair defecemen. Its funny, everyone said Price carried bad teams to the playoffs and we would have been lottery teams if not for him, except for when we were lottery teams with him, He gets credit for all the teams success and is divorced from all the teams failures.

Josh Gorges is weak sauce on the second pairing. I don’t think he was second pairing ever again. I liked the guy but come on. You’re telling me you’d be happy with him in the top four now? Not a chance. We constantly put guys higher than they should be. Douglas Murray… Dale Weiss was in the top six for Pete’s sake.

We had no number one center and a coach that had us last in the league in puck possession, the play was always in our end. He had PK Subban doing dump and chase.

IMO, he was a very good goaltender, but he’s the most overrated player of my lifetime. All because he looked good positionally. He was the best goalie in the league for one season and would have likely repeated again the following season, but got hurt. This idea he was the best from 2010-2017 is pure fantasy. He couldn’t even keep his starters role in 2010.

First place team in 2015. Started the following year at something like 9-3 and a .930+. First place again.

He gets hurt and the club immediately tanks and falls to last place the rest of the year.

We have the benefit of being able to see the club with and without him. Without him wasn’t pretty.

Then we have these claims of how influential he’s been at the position while goaltending in Canada has been a complete mess. It’s the weakest it’s ever been. You would expect someone so influential to have better results, but we always justify Carey’s woes with the team he’s played on. Nevermind the fact he played behind two Norris calibre dmen in Markov/Subbsn.

Why would you limit it to Canada?

And btw, him being influential has zero to do with him having a jersey retired. It’s similar to the Olympics, an interesting talking point.

 

[Bombshell11]

Then we have these claims of how influential he’s been at the position while goaltending in Canada has been a complete mess. Its the weakest it’s ever been. You would expect someone so influential to have better results, but we always justify Carey’s woes with the team he’s played on. Nevermind the fact he played behind two Norris calibre dmen in Markov/Subbsn.

Weber HOF, Norris caliber
Subban possibly HOF, Norris winner,
Markov Norris Caliber

Hamrlik,
Gorges,
Petry
to name a few

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Weber HOF, Norris caliber
Subban possibly HOF, Norris winner,
Markov Norris Caliber

Hamrlik,
Gorges,
Petry
to name a few

Right. But those players weren’t there at the same time. Hammer was long gone by the time Price hit his prime for example. And they were still mediocre teams with a poor forward group that relied on Price way too much. Without him we sank to the bottom. First to last. They weren’t good teams.

But they were at least very than what we had later on. Those teams were flat out terrible.

 

[nhlfan9191]

What?

What goalie stats support the “objective narrative” if GAA, Sv%, and Ws is “cherry picking”? Help me out here.

He was the best by what metrics? Why those years? What did he win? By what margin was he ‘the best’? Was recognized as ‘the best’ in every one of those years? Was he recognized as ‘the best’ in a majority of those years?

In 2010 he lost his fkn job to Halak.

I was responding to the spurious claim that Carey Price was the best player/goalie in the NHL. He was never an undisputed or peerless number 1. He was incredible good for a short peak but was not peerless.

If you don’t want to talk about Koivu then forget about Koivu and move on.


The argument was “he was the best player in the NHL”. Roster doesn’t matter at that point.

He has no arguments that actually work in his favour so people dig for his non-Habs results like Olympics and whatnot. It goes to show his resume comes short.

I was referring to the 2010/2011 season where he finished 7th in Hart in 5th in Vezina. Not the Halak year where he was 22 years old. If you take the statistics from 2010/11-2016/2017 seasons, Price is far above his competition. He had a .928 save percentage over that time and the next guy was Schneider who I believe was .920 with far less games played. And he was undisputed best voted by peers over many years. You don’t have to win a Vezina trophy every year to be considered the best. And the only reason Koivu was even brought up was because of you. Just like you brought up Theodore to try and frame Price as a one hit wonder. You aren’t debating in good faith.

 

[JianYang]

I'm not sure I want his jersey retired but this post is very dishonest. He had great numbers on horribad teams. I'm astonished how in 2024 it's still not clear to people how much he propped up the Habs skaters during his career.

Montreal had a laughable offense and a mediocre defense. Subban/Weber and Markov were very good but the rest... Josh Gorges played top-4 minutes. FFS.

I guess Petry was fine for a few years. The best defense he had was in 2021 playoffs, at the tail-end of his career. And what did he do? Dragged his team to the finals despite barely getting 2 goals a game from his skaters.

He went to the ECF and would've went to the finals in 2014 and maybe won a cup if not for the injury. His forwards? Eller, Rene Bourque, Weise. I guess Gally, Patches, Plek were okay? That's a sad bunch.

They probably get to the cup Finals in 2014 with price but that cup was always going to be LA's.... or Chicago's had they beaten LA

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They probably get to the cup Finals in 2014 with price but that cup was always going to be LA's.... or Chicago's had they beaten LA

That was our best shot. We still had prime Subban who was also a clutch playoff guy. If Krieder doesn't run Price I think we beat the Rangers. We'd have been massive underdogs but I like that series a lot better than us going up against Tampa years later. That was always going to be a bloodbath as much as we wanted to believe otherwise.

LA would've been so tough though. One of the best defensive teams in the league.

 

[JianYang]

That was our best shot. We still had prime Subban who was also a clutch playoff guy. If Krieder doesn't run Price I think we beat the Rangers. We'd have been massive underdogs but I like that series a lot better than us going up against Tampa years later. That was always going to be a bloodbath as much as we wanted to believe otherwise.

LA would've been so tough though. One of the best defensive teams in the league.

Yeah LA's style was a terrible matchup for montreal. I see it just the way it turned out for the Rangers. Close games but LA keeps grinding and wearing down. They were built for that Sutter brand to a tee.

As for the 2021 Tampa team, I think that was the best cap era team of all time to date. You couldn't poke holes on that roster at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah LA's style was a terrible matchup for montreal. I see it just the way it turned out for the Rangers. Close games but LA keeps grinding and wearing down. They were built for that Sutter brand to a tee.

As for the 2021 Tampa team, I think that was the best cap era team of all time to date. You couldn't poke holes on that roster at all.

I agree. Tampa was an almost perfect team in the cap era. Elite players at each key position. That’s as good as it gets. No weaknesses at all.

 

[ReHabs]

I was referring to the 2010/2011 season where he finished 7th in Hart in 5th in Vezina. Not the Halak year where he was 22 years old. If you take the statistics from 2010/11-2016/2017 seasons, Price is far above his competition. He had a .928 save percentage over that time and the next guy was Schneider who I believe was .920 with far less games played.

So you’re cherry picking those seven years and Sv%?

He played for defensive teams that focussed heavily on defensive structure. Therrien experimented with a more man-on-man defence in his first season (swarm D) but reverted to a cynical and stingy defense before long. They gave up low% shots by design.

Cherry picking just Sv% to say he was peerless is therefore not acceptable.

And he was undisputed best voted by peers over many years. You don’t have to win a Vezina trophy every year to be considered the best.

He wasn’t undisputed or peerless. If you can’t concede this we don’t need to continue this discussion.

And the only reason Koivu was even brought up was because of you. Just like you brought up Theodore to try and frame Price as a one hit wonder. You aren’t debating in good faith.

The FIRST reply to this thread mentioned Koivu. And it wasn’t me.

I never once mentioned Theodore. Before you lob accusations you should be sure you have the right person. Rude.

Yeah LA's style was a terrible matchup for montreal. I see it just the way it turned out for the Rangers. Close games but LA keeps grinding and wearing down. They were built for that Sutter brand to a tee.

There was no chance the Habs could’ve beaten the Kings. And the only chance the Habs had to beat the Rangers was if Price stole literally every game.

Bergevin.

As for the 2021 Tampa team, I think that was the best cap era team of all time to date. You couldn't poke holes on that roster at all.

Tampa was a juggernaut and even Price was rattled in the final series.

And in that one Radulov year Price was out-duelled by Lundqvist.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So you’re cherry picking those seven years and Sv%?

That’s what you do with any player’s prime. It’s the same with Guy Lafleur. It’s standard to do this when looking at any player’s career.

Even if you include the rough late seasons of the 2020s he’s still only a point behind a Rask for the decade while playing on far weaker teams.

He played for defensive teams that focussed heavily on defensive structure. Therrien experimented with a more man-on-man defence in his first season (swarm D) but reverted to a cynical and stingy defense before long. They gave up low% shots by design.

Bullshit.

The fact that you’re trying to use Therrien - one of the worst coaches in the league - as a source of strength is so fundamentally dishonest that it reveals agenda in your arguments.

This is even worse than “but guys, we had Josh Gorges!”

Cherry picking just Sv% to say he was peerless is therefore not acceptable.

That’s like saying we shouldn’t ‘cherry-pick’ points when looking at forwards. It’s the single most revealing stat we have.

He wasn’t undisputed or peerless. If you can’t concede this we don’t need to continue this discussion.

In his prime he was. He’s a no brainer HOFer to boot.

The FIRST reply to this thread mentioned Koivu. And it wasn’t me.

I never once mentioned Theodore. Before you lob accusations you should be sure you have the right person. Rude.

Right… you're just here to to pass off the bullshit that Therrien helped him.

This is the same guy who wanted Bouillion and Murray. And who also thought it was a good idea to put Murray with PK Subban.

There was no chance the Habs could’ve beaten the Kings. And the only chance the Habs had to beat the Rangers was if Price stole literally every game.

Nah. Rangers were a winnable series. The moment Price went down though it was lost.

LA would’ve been a high mountain but I’d have loved to have seen it.

Bergevin.

Tampa was a juggernaut and even Price was rattled in the final series.

And in that one Radulov year Price was out-duelled by Lundqvist.

Lundqvist was great. By the time we played them again Subban was gone and we weren’t the same club. Our guys couldn’t score to begin with and Lundqvist was going to shut them down no matter what. All credit to Hank, he’s in the same class of goalie Price was. And if he’d been our goalie here, I’d be arguing for jersey retirement as well. It’s also ironic that Price’s injury likely gave Lundqvist his only finals opportunity.

End of the day, none of what you’ve said here matters. You still haven’t shown why he doesn’t belong. His resume remains as good or better than some already retired.