Should Carey Price’s number be retired?

[Lafleurs Guy]

With Cups it's not a pre-requisite necessarily so the standard I see isn't "did they happen to win a Cup" but rather "did they bring a Cup to Montreal?".

With that aside, it's about impact/legend as you say: Carbo was my favourite player and he contributed about as much as Price did in terms of impacting how the game was played. Whilst he was no Lemaire, his defensive acumen was specifically noteworthy and remembered across the NHL. Price's technical impact might live on too. Neither of them redefined the sport (incredibly rare to do) or were uniquely qualified in their position as the singular example of greatness in that position... so even putting Cups and Leadership aside, I don't see how either is worth immortalizing.

The underlying notion is immortalization. So that no one ever wears their number again and (excuse me for getting metaphysical here) never tempts the fates by evoking a certain legendary player's image or identity. It's gauche to wear 99 because you'll never replace Gretzky and it's gauche to wear 9 in Montreal because you'll never live up to the impact Richard had, same as with 19, 4, etc. Some of the retirements are a bit weaker but they all brought something that felt irreplaceable or unrepeatable either as part of a Dynasty that redefined the sport or as great individual performances that brought the ultimate prize to Montreal.

Our exercise showed that 1) Price did not have a period of unrepeatable success for the Habs or in the NHL, 2) Price did not have an irreplaceable or unrepeatable impact on the NHL, the Habs or for Montreal, and 3) (it goes without saying) Price did not bring the Cup to Montreal.

His performance peak was undeniable but also coincided with the peaks of Lundqvist and others. His performance in the Habs net was incredible but we've had many incredible goalie performances and I'm willing to bet you that in our next cup victory we will have an incredible goalie performance then too. Ultimately what's left is how beloved he is... I'll bet you when we start winning, and start making new playoff memories and making new playoff heros, those chaps will be just as beloved or even more.

By the standards you’ve set here, only Doug Harvey, Dryden and Morenz qualify.

Richard overlapped with Howe. Beliveau overlapped with Hull. Lafleur overlapped with Gretzky. Roy overlapped with Hasek.

You can’t be inconsistent in how you retire players. Even if Lundqvist were close to Price during their primes it doesn’t matter and it wouldn’t matter even if he was better over that period. Carey Price has the credentials to have his jersey retired by the standards we’ve applied to other players. Better Hart and Vezina finishes relative to other positions. Terrific playoff numbers and series upsets. That’s just a fact.

With all due respect to Guy Carbonneau- a player I love - he was a marginal HOFer. When he was announced there was a fair bit of surprise here. Yes, I think he’s worthy and had argued for his inclusion but he’s not the blue chip HOFer that Price is.

And the unique fact about Price over all others on that list is that he accomplished this on pretty mediocre teams. All due respect to Joshes Gorges, the Canadiens have not been murderers row for some time now. He accomplished those numbers with David Desharnais as his first line center. It’s insane that he won as much as he did with some of those clubs. Notice that for all players that we've retired, with the exception of Morenz, they've all played with at least two other players who's jersey has been retired.

The ONLY logical reason I’ve seen to keep him out is that we didn’t win a cup with him. If people want to be ‘purist’ about that, I can respect it. I don’t agree but… sure.

 

[Lshap]

Some of the retirements are a bit weaker but they all brought something that felt irreplaceable or unrepeatable either as part of a Dynasty that redefined the sport or as great individual performances that brought the ultimate prize to Montreal.

This is the heart of the debate – the abstract feeling we got from each retired name. It's really not about the math or the team trophies. Bouchard, Moore, Geoffrion – really good players who were never the best, but are up there because they're part of a romanticized era of Habs lore. They weren't irreplaceable or unrepeatable compared to their peers, but previous generations loved these guys, so up in the rafters they go. I'm fine with that, just like I'm fine with Carbo and Lemaire NOT being up there. Carbonneau was my favourite player too and Lemaire was a chessmaster, but neither earned great nicknames like "Butch" or "Boom-Boom".

Today's generation doesn't have dynasties and we now have to wait decades between Cups. None of that changes how fans feel about our best players. Give it a few more years and I think fans will romanticize Carey Price the same way our dads did with guys from the 1940s. Because Price was at or near the top for awhile, because he represented an entire era, because fans loved him, I predict the organization will want #31 hanging in the rafters sooner rather than later.

Our exercise showed that 1) Price did not have a period of unrepeatable success for the Habs or in the NHL, 2) Price did not have an irreplaceable or unrepeatable impact on the NHL, the Habs or for Montreal, and 3) (it goes without saying) Price did not bring the Cup to Montreal.

Almost none of the players currently up in the rafters meet all these standards, so why should they apply to Price?

His performance peak was undeniable but also coincided with the peaks of Lundqvist and others. His performance in the Habs net was incredible but we've had many incredible goalie performances and I'm willing to bet you that in our next cup victory we will have an incredible goalie performance then too. Ultimately what's left is how beloved he is... I'll bet you when we start winning, and start making new playoff memories and making new playoff heros, those chaps will be just as beloved or even more.

Price had a HoF career and huge clutch performances. If a future goalie does all that and brings a Cup to Montreal I'd campaign for his number to be retired, too.

 

[NobleSix]

Yep

 

[Natey]

Quite different eras though.

No doubt, but I can say that for pretty much anyone. Without Durnan's mental issues, he may have been the greatest goalie of all-time.

 

[Scintillating10]

No doubt, but I can say that for pretty much anyone. Without Durnan's mental issues, he may have been the greatest goalie of all-time.

I can't judge like that. Same maybe said about Hainsworth.

 

[ReHabs]

This is the heart of the debate – the abstract feeling we got from each retired name. It's really not about the math or the team trophies. Bouchard, Moore, Geoffrion – really good players who were never the best, but are up there because they're part of a romanticized era of Habs lore. They weren't irreplaceable or unrepeatable compared to their peers, but previous generations loved these guys, so up in the rafters they go. I'm fine with that, just like I'm fine with Carbo and Lemaire NOT being up there. Carbonneau was my favourite player too and Lemaire was a chessmaster, but neither earned great nicknames like "Butch" or "Boom-Boom".

Today's generation doesn't have dynasties and we now have to wait decades between Cups. None of that changes how fans feel about our best players. Give it a few more years and I think fans will romanticize Carey Price the same way our dads did with guys from the 1940s. Because Price was at or near the top for awhile, because he represented an entire era, because fans loved him, I predict the organization will want #31 hanging in the rafters sooner rather than later.

What those players accomplished was part of an unforgettable, irreplaceable, or unrepeatable dynasty or era of success. Winning is romanticized. We put up statues and name things after winners, it's part of our culture. We erect Triumphant arches to celebrate victories. It becomes engrained in our identity, as a society and as this religious-sporting experience we call Habs fandom.

Even those of us who weren't conscious feel affection for those players, because their story becomes part of the story of the Habs. Winning the Cup does that and almost nothing else.

Price was not part of a romantic era, in fact it was largely bitter, frustrating, and wasteful. It had David Desharnais as a 1C, it had Karl Alzner, it had Steve Ott, it had Michel Therrien. As time goes on the era will look worse and worse. Price will be a curious case to dissect and analyse.

Fans are free to care about Price as much as they damn well please. I know I do.

Almost none of the players currently up in the rafters meet all these standards, so why should they apply to Price?

Every single name in the rafters has either brought a Cup to Montreal or was part of a cohort/era that brought Cups to Montreal. I've applied a consistent standard.

Price had a HoF career and huge clutch performances. If a future goalie does all that and brings a Cup to Montreal I'd campaign for his number to be retired, too.

Yeah, if they bring a Cup to Montreal and have a HoF career? Sure why not. I'd be all for it. Price made one Finals in his whole career and we got pummelled and lost in 5. It's a team game, yes yes, but no one from that roster is on track to get their number retired and for good reason.

Let me flip it back to you: What's wrong with NOT retiring his number?

 

[Natey]

I can't judge like that. Same maybe said about Hainsworth.

I'm not sure of Harmsworth story.

Durnan was scared of the puck after being hit in the face multiple times. Led to his retirement. I remember reading an article from other teammates and stuff about how he would just look scared constantly before games near the end of his career.

 

[BLONG7]

What those players accomplished was part of an unforgettable, irreplaceable, or unrepeatable dynasty or era of success. Winning is romanticized. We put up statues and name things after winners, it's part of our culture. We erect Triumphant arches to celebrate victories. It becomes engrained in our identity, as a society and as this religious-sporting experience we call Habs fandom.

Even those of us who weren't conscious feel affection for those players, because their story becomes part of the story of the Habs. Winning the Cup does that and almost nothing else.

Price was not part of a romantic era, in fact it was largely bitter, frustrating, and wasteful. It had David Desharnais as a 1C, it had Karl Alzner, it had Steve Ott, it had Michel Therrien. As time goes on the era will look worse and worse. Price will be a curious case to dissect and analyse.

Fans are free to care about Price as much as they damn well please. I know I do.

Every single name in the rafters has either brought a Cup to Montreal or was part of a cohort/era that brought Cups to Montreal. I've applied a consistent standard.


Yeah, if they bring a Cup to Montreal and have a HoF career? Sure why not. I'd be all for it. Price made one Finals in his whole career and we got pummelled and lost in 5. It's a team game, yes yes, but no one from that roster is on track to get their number retired and for good reason.

Let me flip it back to you: What's wrong with NOT retiring his number?

The guys who are in the rafters........played on TEAMS with other hall of fame players, hence the Cups.
Price had how many hall of fame players on his teams during his career? How many guys on his teams have their numbers retired. He would have played with a couple of HOF guys, maybe one at a time......but NO one Price played with will get their number retired by the habs......the possibility that just he could have this done.....Could.

Remember................it's a TEAM game. Guys like Lapointe, sure were glad he played on a TEAM that had many hall of famers, and many guys who got their numbers retired.

Price has the resume, but never had the team....

 

[Lshap]

Price was not part of a romantic era, in fact it was largely bitter, frustrating, and wasteful. It had David Desharnais as a 1C, it had Karl Alzner, it had Steve Ott, it had Michel Therrien. As time goes on the era will look worse and worse. Price will be a curious case to dissect and analyse.

Fans are free to care about Price as much as they damn well please. I know I do.

Every single name in the rafters has either brought a Cup to Montreal or was part of a cohort/era that brought Cups to Montreal. I've applied a consistent standard.


Let me flip it back to you: What's wrong with NOT retiring his number?

I agree - the last 25 years were the most barren era of Habs hockey ever. Nobody's romanticizing those teams and no team banners will ever hang in the rafters.

However I think Price himself will become romanticized more and more as the years pass, which will grow into a groundswell of support for his number retirement. That's my guess, anyway.

If the future proves me wrong and, as you suggest, Price's reputation is reduced to being a bright spot amongst a bunch of mediocre rosters, so be it. To answer your question about what's wrong with not retiring his number: Not much, honestly. I still see Carbonneau in Guhle's #21, but I've lost very little sleep over it. It would feel wrong to have another player wear #31, but chances of me becoming Michael Douglas in Falling Down are slim.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm not sure of Harmsworth story.

Durnan was scared of the puck after being hit in the face multiple times. Led to his retirement. I remember reading an article from other teammates and stuff about how he would just look scared constantly before games near the end of his career.

Hard enough pkaying goalie in Montreal. Doing it without a facemask? Insane.

 

[ReHabs]

I agree - the last 25 years were the most barren era of Habs hockey ever. Nobody's romanticizing those teams and no team banners will ever hang in the rafters.

However I think Price himself will become romanticized more and more as the years pass, which will grow into a groundswell of support for his number retirement. That's my guess, anyway.

If the future proves me wrong and, as you suggest, Price's reputation is reduced to being a bright spot amongst a bunch of mediocre rosters, so be it. To answer your question about what's wrong with not retiring his number: Not much, honestly. I still see Carbonneau in Guhle's #21, but I've lost very little sleep over it. It would feel wrong to have another player wear #31, but chances of me becoming Michael Douglas in Falling Down are slim.

Will you get your breakfast sandwich?

I think Price would become more romanticized if he had more hardware and more playoff success but he's short on both. Over his career until that run to the finals in 20-21 he won a total of four playoff series (five if you want to count the cockamammie "play-ins" during Covid which preceded a first round loss). Overall it falls short imo.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Let me flip it back to you: What's wrong with NOT retiring his number?

He's earned it.

 

[Bombshell11]

He's earned it.

We pretty much donated everything to Price, there's very few things he earned and a jersey retirement would be our version of a make a wish foundation

 

[Barriwhite]

By the standards you’ve set here, only Doug Harvey, Dryden and Morenz qualify.

Richard overlapped with Howe. Beliveau overlapped with Hull. Lafleur overlapped with Gretzky. Roy overlapped with Hasek.

You can’t be inconsistent in how you retire players. Even if Lundqvist were close to Price during their primes it doesn’t matter and it wouldn’t matter even if he was better over that period. Carey Price has the credentials to have his jersey retired by the standards we’ve applied to other players. Better Hart and Vezina finishes relative to other positions. Terrific playoff numbers and series upsets. That’s just a fact.

With all due respect to Guy Carbonneau- a player I love - he was a marginal HOFer. When he was announced there was a fair bit of surprise here. Yes, I think he’s worthy and had argued for his inclusion but he’s not the blue chip HOFer that Price is.

And the unique fact about Price over all others on that list is that he accomplished this on pretty mediocre teams. All due respect to Joshes Gorges, the Canadiens have not been murderers row for some time now. He accomplished those numbers with David Desharnais as his first line center. It’s insane that he won as much as he did with some of those clubs. Notice that for all players that we've retired, with the exception of Morenz, they've all played with at least two other players who's jersey has been retired.

The ONLY logical reason I’ve seen to keep him out is that we didn’t win a cup with him. If people want to be ‘purist’ about that, I can respect it. I don’t agree but… sure.

The underlined is a great point. I’m warming up to the idea of retiring 31.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The underlined is a great point. I’m warming up to the idea of retiring 31.

A lone bright light in a sea of despair.

 

[Naslundforever]

Best hab since Roy left 30 years ago and still he falls short for most. We’re really due for some stars in mtl. Anyone even top 10 nhl at their position feels like a dream.

I think Price is the most gifted and technically perfect goalie I’ve seen play the game. He even had a better 1st pass than most defensemen he’s played with. Such a wasted potential with this team it’s crazy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Will you get your breakfast sandwich?

I think Price would become more romanticized if he had more hardware and more playoff success but he's short on both. Over his career until that run to the finals in 20-21 he won a total of four playoff series (five if you want to count the cockamammie "play-ins" during Covid which preceded a first round loss). Overall it falls short imo.

He has several playoff upsets to his credit. And there's absolutely no reason to exclude his best run anymore than we should exclude any other player's.

Boston in 2014
Pittsburgh in 2020
Toronto 2021
Vegas 2021

All huge upsets.

For all the praise heaped on Roy, he never really had a series upset while he was here. The closest would be Quebec in 93 but there was only two points separating us in the standings and they were still a very young club. We got very lucky in those two cup runs and avoided the best teams in the league. The only time we faced the best team was 89 and we lost.

His postseason numbers are terrific and he's actually better in the playoffs than the regular season.

Not winning postseason games is the exact same thing as not winning a cup. You need a team to do it. Go look at how many goals were scored for during his run here. It's pathetic.

As I said earlier, it's insane that we got that kind of goaltending and didn't manage to win at least a cup while he was here.

 

[Bombshell11]

Best hab since Roy left 30 years ago and still he falls short for most. We’re really due for some stars in mtl. Anyone even top 10 nhl at their position feels like a dream.

I think Price is the most gifted and technically perfect goalie I’ve seen play the game. He even had a better 1st pass than most defensemen he’s played with. Such a wasted potential with this team it’s crazy.

Subban was easely top 5 here for many years. Not sure how you disregard him like this

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Best hab since Roy left 30 years ago and still he falls short for most. We’re really due for some stars in mtl. Anyone even top 10 nhl at their position feels like a dream.

I think Price is the most gifted and technically perfect goalie I’ve seen play the game. He even had a better 1st pass than most defensemen he’s played with. Such a wasted potential with this team it’s crazy.

Roy is celebrated as having huge upset cups. The reality is though that he doesn't really have an upset series to his credit. He spent much of his career here behind two multi-selke winners, two Norris winners, several players who yielded Selke votes over the course of their careers (including terrifc defensive forwards like Bryan Skrudland) and defensive stalwarts like Green, McPhee, Ludwig... you couldn't get near Montreal's crease without getting puched in the face.

Again, Roy deserves all the credit in the world. He was insane in those cup runs and is deservedly regarded as one of the best goalies ever. But he had a lot of help. The 86 team had four HOFers on it. The 93 team had four players at a point per game or better and was packed with really good players.

Price did not have that luxury. Subban was a full on HOF caliber player. Markov, Max, Plek and Gallagher were really solid players but not great playoff performers (partially because we didn't have a number one center.) Those teams had no real depth to them and Therrien played players like Desharnais and Weisse in roles they shouldn't have been in. A couple of good players and a decent coach - we might've been able to win something. But playing with DD as your first line center is laughably bad. Playing Douglas Murray and Bouillion etc... is laughably bad. Just insane how badly those clubs were run.

Those teams had no plan. 'Pricer stop da puck' was the only plan they had.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Subban was easely top 5 here for many years. Not sure how you disregard him like this

Sure. Now compare what the goalies had to work with:

Plante: Richard, Beliveau, Boom Boom, Harvey etc...
Dryden: Lafleur, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe etc...
Roy: Robinson, Chelios, Gainey, Carbo etc...
Price: Subban, Markov, Max, Gallagher...

Every one of those goalies has other jereseys retired along with them. The only one who won't is Price. It's an insane difference in talent they had to work with.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We pretty much donated everything to Price, there's very few things he earned and a jersey retirement would be our version of a make a wish foundation

We donated him David Desharnais as our first line center and Michel Therrien as coach.

"Here's are two anchors Carey. Try to swim! Make sure you stop da puck!"

 

[MTL Dirty Birdy]

Yes. As this is about franchise impact, he holds franchise records in wins, games played, one of the top in SO, won the hart/Jennings/Vezina. He definitely deserves to have his number retired

 

[Bombshell11]

Sure. Now compare what the goalies had to work with:

Plante: Richard, Beliveau, Boom Boom, Harvey etc...
Dryden: Lafleur, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe etc...
Roy: Robinson, Chelios, Gainey, Carbo etc...
Price: Subban, Markov, Max, Gallagher...

Every one of those goalies has other jereseys retired along with them. The only one who won't is Price. It's an insane difference in talent they had to work with.

You know why goalies in Price's era had less to work with than the habs back in the days, right?
Parity... salary cap, etc. Design made on purpose to spread the wealth and talent.
You can't compare different eras, one to one. You have to compare Price with his direct competition and this is where he falls short.

 

[MXD]

I wouldn't, but I wouldn't object either.

 

[Bombshell11]

We donated him David Desharnais as our first line center and Michel Therrien as coach.

"Here's are two anchors Carey. Try to swim! Make sure you stop da puck!"

Can you tell us what happend to the "No Excuse" sign?

Yeah maybe DD was the 1st Center but the team finished top in the league during those days so its not a hella of big issue. The issue was Pacioretty becoming invisible in the playoffs and most other players... we had to rely on PK, 3rd and 4th liners to bring us through.

And you cant say Pacioretty was a bad player, the guy scored 39 goals in an era that players barely scored 50, aside from Ovy of course.