Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

[charliolemieux]

those acquisitions haven't been a step forward though. you'd have to admit that at this point. the team isn't any better.

we can have our opinions that the team might look better on paper, or might eventually get better, but the fact is it hasn't yet happened. there hasn't been that actual step forward.

Having two PPG forwards for the first time since Gilmour was here is not a step forward?

What team were you watching 5 years ago?

any guess as to when it might come?

Well we were in a playoff spot for 3/4 of the season last year. With Gardiner, Kessel, Frattin, and Kadri yet to reach their utlimate potential.

i see a double standard here.

Not with me, you don't.

its ok to applaud the acquisitions you feel are good ones, without giving him 10 years to actually see what happens, yet its not ok to criticize the moves we feel are poor ones until 10 years have expired?

sitting back and letting him do his job for 10 years....shouldn't that include not praising any of these transactions until the 10 year time period is upon us? shouldn't we wait to see the results?

That is just a rediculous statement.

First you need to take off the hater glasses to look at the past 4yrs objectively.

After that maybe we can discuss the validity of all of Burkes moves.

 

[Frankie]

As I mentioned there are factors in this season. How long during this season were they 5th last for?. Were they in any other position?

Reality: If you watched the season, you should know it wasn't that
black and white.

too bad the nhl doesn't take these factors into consideration when determining who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

because the only reason he has prospects in the first place is because of how poorly his team has played. the only time he's gone out and traded for futures are when he expected the team to make or come close to the playoffs only for them to have completely failed. Gardiner/Biggs/Percy/Colborne/lupul probably do not get acquired if things went the way Burke expected. every summer he goes out and adds pieces to this team that he expects to put them in the playoffs and every year it's failed. it really makes me wonder if he knows how to build a team properly, because all we got is a bunch of individuals who don't really play as a team.

What difference does any of that make? You want to preach prospects, be prepared to wait, otherwise, don't bother.

 

[charliolemieux]

Yes.

He does have the team moving in the wrong direction.

Allow me to show you:

2008: 7th last
2009: 7th last
2010: 2nd last (wrong direction)
2011: 9th last
2012: 5th last (wrong direction)

As you can see the team is worse and has been on average worse than JFJ and FLetcher's teams.

This is the wrong direction..becoming a worse team.

This isnt debateable. This is just reality, as others have said before me.

The reality is, this team is worse than the team that was left for Burke.

You do realise the rest of the league has gotten better.

They didn't stop improving to let the Leafs catch up.

 

[charliolemieux]

Right and similarly, I would have liked to pick up Nugent Hopkins or Landeskog, Hall or Seguin, and Tavares or Duchene throughout the years Burke has been in charge. It's no different than being happy with Rielly. But the fact is its too late and the damage and opportunities have been lost/.

Because that's what the Leafs needed (and still need) and that's who have been within reach of how bad the Leafs are.

But Brian Burke chose to try and aimlessly make the playoffs and not these extremely rare prospects evidenced by his willingness to trade his own firsts away for instant help and spending to the cap with terrible free agent signings.

So now BUrke's team doesn't suck bad enough for you? Will you make up your mind.

 

[Frankie]

Having two PPG forwards for the first time since Gilmour was here is not a step forward?

What team were you watching 5 years ago?

the team 5 years ago had more points than last year's team. that's not a step forward.

you can have your opinion that the team might look better on paper, but the fact is the team hasn't taken a step forward.

Well we were in a playoff spot for 3/4 of the season last year. With Gardiner, Kessel, Frattin, and Kadri yet to reach their utlimate potential.

so, no guess as to when the actual step forward might come?

That is just a rediculous statement.

First you need to take off the hater glasses to look at the past 4yrs objectively.

After that maybe we can discuss the validity of all of Burkes moves.

since you're speaking in vague generalities and not addressing the questions put to you, i assume you realize your double standard.

obviously if we can't judge for 10 years, that means no criticizing, and also no praising for those 10 years.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

You do realise the rest of the league has gotten better.

They didn't stop improving to let the Leafs catch up.

You do realize that reasoning would mean that making the playoffs would be an impossible dream as the rest of the league would not stop improving to let the Leafs catch up.

Not your best argument...

 

[charliolemieux]

so burke has tried to make the team better, but hasn't made the team any better.

and we're supposed to be applauding him for this? we should be happy with this?

And ofcourse the rest of the league sat back and waited for Burke to build the Leafs.

 

[charliolemieux]

You do realize that reasoning would mean that making the playoffs would be an impossible dream as the rest of the league would not stop improving to let the Leafs catch up.

Not your best argument...

NO, as usual you misunderstand. It just means Burke has to work that much harder to catch up.

 

[Frankie]

You do realise the rest of the league has gotten better.

They didn't stop improving to let the Leafs catch up.

that's actually not true.

the 8th place team in each of those seasons....

08 - 94 pts.
09 - 92 pts.
10 - 88 pts.
11 - 93 pts.
12 - 92 pts.

the bar is not continually being raised, so lets stop with that myth.

 

[charliolemieux]

the team 5 years ago had more points than last year's team. that's not a step forward.

you can have your opinion that the team might look better on paper, but the fact is the team hasn't taken a step forward.

The rest of the conference has had it much easier than we have over the past 5 years.

WAS, PIT, BOS, BUF, MTL, TBL, are all stronger or like in hte case of MTL got that magical piece #1 goalie.

If you can't see this team is younger and more talented than what we had 5 years ago then you need glasses.

With some solid goaltending and a slightly more effective #1C we are laughing. But the fact remains that due to the position of the franchise when Burke arrived we were light years behind other franchises. We had no Ovechkin's Tavares or Staals. We had no young building blocks other than Steen who Cliff traded aways days before Burke in an ill advised attempt to catch lightning in a bottle.

So ya this team is better, but we have been outpaced but the other teams who had the luxury to have those elite pieces.

so, no guess as to when the actual step forward might come?

What does your crystal ball tell you big guy?

since you're speaking in vague generalities and not addressing the questions put to you, i assume you realize your double standard.

obviously if we can't judge for 10 years, that means no criticizing, and also no praising for those 10 years.

Again I have no double standard. Try to prove it. You can't.

Who's saying you can't criticize?

Criticize Burke all you want. Just open your eyes and look at the bigger picture before you go off half-cocked and start making rediculous or only half true accusations. .

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

NO, as usual you misunderstand. It just means Burke has to work that much harder to catch up.

1. Too proud to admit you erred, are you?

2. That should not be too hard for a genius like Burkie...

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

the team 5 years ago had more points than last year's team. that's not a step forward.

you can have your opinion that the team might look better on paper, but the fact is the team hasn't taken a step forward.

.

Of course the exact same scenario holds true for Edmonton over the past 5 years.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Of course the exact same scenario holds true for Edmonton over the past 5 years.

And why exactly should that make the Leafs fans feel better?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

And why exactly should that make the Leafs fans feel better?

Because we like unicorns.

 

[Frankie]

Of course the exact same scenario holds true for Edmonton over the past 5 years.

yeah. so what? i don't care about the oilers.

you ignored the question i asked you in post #126. after accusing me of ignoring you.

 

[4evaBlue]

I know where Burke won a Cup, but I don't know where he was a SC Finalist.

Hope you aren't suggesting his Canucks went to the Finals, because they didn't.
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/vancouver-canucks-8756.html

Luongo has nothing to do with Burke.

Luongo doesn't have much to do with the Canucks' success, either. Isn't that one of the reasons they want him out?

 

[charliolemieux]

that's actually not true.

the 8th place team in each of those seasons....

08 - 94 pts.
09 - 92 pts.
10 - 88 pts.
11 - 93 pts.
12 - 92 pts.

the bar is not continually being raised, so lets stop with that myth.

So WAS did not develop into a stronger team than they were during JFJ's tenure?

Same goes for NYI, NYR, PIT, TBL, BOS and MTL got great goaltending, PHI got even stronger, and BUF still had MIller to shove down our throats 6 times a year.

So take your 8th place points and toss them out the window because reality is different from simply adding up wins and losses. The other teams in our Conference were getting stronger, with a head start and elite pieces that we did not have before Burke arrived.

 

[charliolemieux]

1. Too proud to admit you erred, are you?

2. That should not be too hard for a genius like Burkie...

1. Show me where...

2. The gap is a lot smaller than it used to be.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

yeah. so what? i don't care about the oilers.

you ignored the question i asked you in post #126. after accusing me of ignoring you.

Sorry to disappoint you guy but my computer crashed and my current device doesn't even show post numbers. Odds are I've missed lots.

 

[Frankie]

The rest of the conference has had it much easier than we have over the past 5 years.

WAS, PIT, BOS, BUF, MTL, TBL, are all stronger or like in hte case of MTL got that magical piece #1 goalie.

yes, they've had it easier because they're better than we are. that's usually how it works.

If you can't see this team is younger and more talented than what we had 5 years ago then you need glasses.

again, that's your opinion. maybe the team looks better on paper, and maybe the future looks good. but to date, there's been no step forward. that's simply a fact. you can't argue the standings.

What does your crystal ball tell you big guy?

i don't know that it will come. you're the one who is convinced this is all good, and i assume you believe the fruits of all this goodness will reflect in the standings some day.

its a fair question to ask you when you think we'll see the positive results in the standings. without putting some time frame on it, your positive thinking rings a little hollow.

Again I have no double standard. Try to prove it. You can't.

Who's saying you can't criticize?

Criticize Burke all you want. Just open your eyes and look at the bigger picture before you go off half-cocked and start making rediculous or only half true accusations. .

i have proved it, i've shown your double standard.

you did say he shouldn't be judged for at least 10 years. yet you are judging his work already. double standard.

 

[Frankie]

Sorry to disappoint you guy but my computer crashed and my current device doesn't even show post numbers. Odds are I've missed lots.

that does disappoint me.

you should perhaps take that into account next time before accusing someone of ignoring you.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

that does disappoint me.

you should perhaps take that into account next time before accusing someone of ignoring you.

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Frankie]

So WAS did not develop into a stronger team than they were during JFJ's tenure?

Same goes for NYI, NYR, PIT, TBL, BOS and MTL got great goaltending, PHI got even stronger, and BUF still had MIller to shove down our throats 6 times a year.

So take your 8th place points and toss them out the window because reality is different from simply adding up wins and losses. The other teams in our Conference were getting stronger, with a head start and elite pieces that we did not have before Burke arrived.

that's all vague, ambiguous nonsense. you're saying the other teams are better than us. everyone knows that.

it actually is as simple as adding up wins and losses. that's how the league determines who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't. they don't take into our opinions into account.

 

[-DeMo-]

The Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner trade was made to shake up the team and after that they started playing better.

The Kaberle trade for Colborne, 2011 1st round pick (Biggs) and 2012 2nd round pick later traded for Liles was going to happen no matter what. If you remember Kaberle was going to be a UFA and Burke didn't want to loss him for nothing in return since he wasn't going to re-sign him.

As for the Versteeg trade to Philadelphia for a 2011 1st round pick (Percy) and the 3rd round pick, since he wasn't happy with his role in Toronto I say Burke was lucky to at least get the 1st round pick and at the time of that trade they didn't have one.

exactly so if the team was playing as Burke intended they wouldn't have needed to shake up the team and deal Beauch, which makes the trade unlikely. and whose to say if this team was in a playoff position that he would have dealt Kaberle? he went by the deadline with an unsigned Grabo why with a chance at a playoff spot wouldn't he have kept kaberle?

As I mentioned there are factors in this season. How long during this season were they 5th last for?. Were they in any other position?

Reality: If you watched the season, you should know it wasn't that
black and white.

people need to learn that the leafs fell out of a playoff position the day they lost there 61st game last year, in the first 60 games of 11-12(last year) season the leafs put up 65 points, and in the final 60 games of 10-11 season they put up 66 points so it's not like they've not put up that pace before there just completely incapable of playing 82 games. the only difference between the two season's is we slumped at the end of the year and not the beginning like in 10-11, and the slump wasn't as big in 10-11 obviously because we finished higher in the standings. it's really a complete myth that this last years team was better then the year before because they're slump didn't occur till late in the year.

btw 65 points in 60 games is an 89 point pace which isn't enough to make the playoffs even tho they were in a playoff spot at the time.