because the only reason he has prospects in the first place is because of how poorly his team has played. the only time he's gone out and traded for futures are when he expected the team to make or come close to the playoffs only for them to have completely failed. Gardiner/Biggs/Percy/Colborne/lupul probably do not get acquired if things went the way Burke expected. every summer he goes out and adds pieces to this team that he expects to put them in the playoffs and every year it's failed. it really makes me wonder if he knows how to build a team properly, because all we got is a bunch of individuals who don't really play as a team.
Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?
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because the only reason he has prospects in the first place is because of how poorly his team has played. the only time he's gone out and traded for futures are when he expected the team to make or come close to the playoffs only for them to have completely failed. Gardiner/Biggs/Percy/Colborne/lupul probably do not get acquired if things went the way Burke expected. every summer he goes out and adds pieces to this team that he expects to put them in the playoffs and every year it's failed. it really makes me wonder if he knows how to build a team properly, because all we got is a bunch of individuals who don't really play as a team.
but the 07-08 team, the team that burke took over and you feel was the sorriest excuse for an nhl team ever, was actually better than the most recent 11-12 teams under burke.
there's been no improvement under burke from the team he inhereted. in his 4 seasons since 07-08, 3 of those finished with less points, and one had just 2 points more than the sorriest team ever assembled.
LeafsNation75
Registered User
The Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner trade was made to shake up the team and after that they started playing better.
The Kaberle trade for Colborne, 2011 1st round pick (Biggs) and 2012 2nd round pick later traded for Liles was going to happen no matter what. If you remember Kaberle was going to be a UFA and Burke didn't want to loss him for nothing in return since he wasn't going to re-sign him.
As for the Versteeg trade to Philadelphia for a 2011 1st round pick (Percy) and the 3rd round pick, since he wasn't happy with his role in Toronto I say Burke was lucky to at least get the 1st round pick and at the time of that trade they didn't have one.
those acquisitions haven't been a step forward though. you'd have to admit that at this point. the team isn't any better.
we can have our opinions that the team might look better on paper, or might eventually get better, but the fact is it hasn't yet happened. there hasn't been that actual step forward.
any guess as to when it might come?
i see a double standard here.
its ok to applaud the acquisitions you feel are good ones, without giving him 10 years to actually see what happens, yet its not ok to criticize the moves we feel are poor ones until 10 years have expired?
sitting back and letting him do his job for 10 years....shouldn't that include not praising any of these transactions until the 10 year time period is upon us? shouldn't we wait to see the results?
Too bad he didn't cash the pick in, how many players taken after Percy would have been better, or is Percy a better prospect than many think. Why?
LeafsNation75
Registered User
Last season Percy was injured in the OHL and missed a fair number of games, so he feel behind in his development. However I say let's judge him at what he can do at the NHL level. It's easy to say Burke should have selected Boone Jenner because of what he can do in the OHL and his role on the Canadian Junior team.
Bomber0104
Registered User
Yes.
He does have the team moving in the wrong direction.
Allow me to show you:
2008: 7th last
2009: 7th last
2010: 2nd last (wrong direction)
2011: 9th last
2012: 5th last (wrong direction)
As you can see the team is worse and has been on average worse than JFJ and FLetcher's teams.
This is the wrong direction..becoming a worse team.
This isnt debateable. This is just reality, as others have said before me.
The reality is, this team is worse than the team that was left for Burke.
Murphy Blue
Live blue
That's an awfully myopic view on the structure of the team. While Burke has not moved the team in a positive direction on the scoreboard, he has been GM of the Leafs for a relatively short period of time. In that time he has significantly enhanced the teams future.
But if you are only going to talk standings, then yes, we haven't climbed up the charts you are absolutely right. That is however, just a wrong way to look at how to build a hockey club.
Bomber0104
Registered User
The way Brian Burke has structured the team hasnt improved the team in any quantifiable way.
Every team adds to the future every draft, and through trades. The Leafs are no different in that way than any other team.
That's why we analyze the prospects in the system and compare them to how the other GMs have been building for their future, and the consensus has found that Toronto is average
Bringing context to THAT fact now, we see that Toronto has been one of the worst teams in the league thanks to Burke, and despite this, our prospects are only AVERAGE.
Most teams that are one of the worst teams in the league for many years have better than average prospects and pieces on their team.
So, pardon me, but I think I am analyzing quite well with the information we do in fact have.
I don't believe our future is as bright as it should be considering how awful the teams Burke has iced have been.
We seriously need a sticky Burke bashing thread, so all this crap doesn't get regurgitated once every month or so.
The difference between a lottery team, and a team that finishes outside of the bottom 10 is miniscule (4 points). Had Wilson not rode a stone cold Reimer when he had a goalie playing well, we easily would have finished out of the bottom 10. Would people consider that a success, since the team would have done better than in the previous year?
If we weren't going to be contending, I'm content with having picked up Rielly. Thank you, Reimer.
The difference between a lottery team, and a team that finishes outside of the bottom 10 is miniscule (4 points). Had Wilson not rode a stone cold Reimer when he had a goalie playing well, we easily would have finished out of the bottom 10. Would people consider that a success, since the team would have done better than in the previous year?
If we weren't going to be contending, I'm content with having picked up Rielly. Thank you, Reimer.
Bomber0104
Registered User
Right and similarly, I would have liked to pick up Nugent Hopkins or Landeskog, Hall or Seguin, and Tavares or Duchene throughout the years Burke has been in charge. It's no different than being happy with Rielly. But the fact is its too late and the damage and opportunities have been lost/.
Because that's what the Leafs needed (and still need) and that's who have been within reach of how bad the Leafs are.
But Brian Burke chose to try and aimlessly make the playoffs and not these extremely rare prospects evidenced by his willingness to trade his own firsts away for instant help and spending to the cap with terrible free agent signings.
Bomber0104
Registered User
This really is all that needs to be said to arrive at the conclusion that Burke has been a failure so far for this franchise.
Its a clean summary that presents all the facts.
Does Burke need another year...well he hasn't been fired so far so it looks safe to say that we are in for at least another season of him to see if he can for the first time in years actually improve the team.
He has another year. If he fails again, its just another nail in his coffin.
He made his bed here in Toronto. He has to sleep in it inevitably.
Burke chose not to deliberately suck for X number of years. He's actively tried to make the team better, which is considerably harder than the job his doorknob counterpart in Edmonton is doing. I can only hope that they will fix the tanking exploit that allows Pejorative Slured GMs to stockpile future stars, so all these tanking threads can go away for good.
So yes, it's absolutely different than being happy for ending up with Rielly. Our GM actually tried to make stuff happen, and would have likely succeeded in improving the team had it not been for the halfwit coach. He didn't just sit back and wait for the welfare cheque to come in.
The difference between 5th last and 10th last is around 4 points. Minor. The difference between 5th last, and dead last is ~15 points. Not so minor. Not even Reimer could have pulled out that level of suck with the amount of games he was given.
He's building this team nicely. Took it a long way from where it was, have a nice pool of prospects and with the upcoming free agency i think he can make a big impact. Definitely re-sign him, just take a look at what he did for Anaheim, Made Vancouver the team they are today, think he can do the same for us.
Bomber0104
Registered User
He chose not to deliberately suck, yet we still suck in the standings.
He chose not to deliberately suck, and our prospect system is that much worse for it.
Everyone has their own opinion on the method...but the results have been an undeniable failure.
The Leafs' NHL roster has been a failure and the prospects are average because Burke was too stubborn to let the team be as bad as it can be.
Pyrophorus
Registered User
Pyrophorus
Registered User
Now you know how many people don't have a grain of sense.
They should to the Rangers board, and ask that Sather get fired.
Pyrophorus
Registered User
ULF_55
Moderator
Pyrophorus
Registered User
As I mentioned there are factors in this season. How long during this season were they 5th last for?. Were they in any other position?
Reality: If you watched the season, you should know it wasn't that
black and white.
ULF_55
Moderator
I know where Burke won a Cup, but I don't know where he was a SC Finalist.
Hope you aren't suggesting his Canucks went to the Finals, because they didn't.
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/vancouver-canucks-8756.html
Luongo has nothing to do with Burke.
ULF_55
Moderator
JFj's Leafs were in the playoffs until the Devils lost on the final day of the season, in a shoot-out.
With new ownership...
He may only get this season as his look see.Burke has some glaring question marks like putting Bozak as his number one center and laying all his eggs on Reimer.He wins most of his trades but his fee agent signings were atrocious.He failed to lure anyone of note and overpaid all of the them except MacA.I would say Burke will not have the option to tank and will be needing a true number one center. The mere addition of Luongo will not put this team in the playoffs,so in a way Burke has put himself on the teeters edge,only success will do now,forget about MacKinnon.
He may only get this season as his look see.Burke has some glaring question marks like putting Bozak as his number one center and laying all his eggs on Reimer.He wins most of his trades but his fee agent signings were atrocious.He failed to lure anyone of note and overpaid all of the them except MacA.I would say Burke will not have the option to tank and will be needing a true number one center. The mere addition of Luongo will not put this team in the playoffs,so in a way Burke has put himself on the teeters edge,only success will do now,forget about MacKinnon.
Stellick was only there for 1 year.
The Leafs made the playoffs 4 times in 7 years with McNamara at the helm (with some awful win/loss results, I'll grant you).
They made the playoffs 2 times out of 3 years with Imlach pt. 2.
so burke has tried to make the team better, but hasn't made the team any better.
and we're supposed to be applauding him for this? we should be happy with this?
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