Sharks with the 1st Overall

[Bizz]

I'd want them to move back if they can get a nice haul that included the 2nd or 3rd overall plus other picks that way we have more lottery tickets to spend getting what we really need (Defensemen). But I wouldn't be mad if they picked Hagens either.

 

[karltonian]

I thought teams can not win back to back anymore?

you cannot move up more than 2x in a 5 year period. the sharks have never moved up.

 

[archangel2]

you cannot move up more than 2x in a 5 year period. the sharks have never moved up.

My guess if the Sharks get another first, posters will kick up a storm about that

 

[Brodeur]

I have never seen in modern days someone trade down for first overall pick to 3th. They will probably draft Hagen.

Rumor was that the Devils in 2017 were willing to trade #1 for #3+. Apparently Vegas wanted to make a big splash and walk out of their first draft with Nolan Patrick. New Jersey was okay with that scenario since they were guaranteed that at least one of Nico Hischier or Cale Makar would still be there at #3. Vegas unsuccessfully pitched Dallas on trading down from #3 to #6, so the Devils ended up staying put and taking Nico.

Florida was open to offers for #1 in 2014. It sounded like Philadelphia (hosted that draft too) made a pitch involving Brayden Schenn, Vinny Lecavalier, and #17. Florida wanted Wayne Simmonds in the package and they had a stalemate.

Rick Dudley traded #1 twice. In 1999, there wasn't a consensus top pick. Dudley kept his mindset secretive to the point where his own scouts weren't sure what was happening. Dudley preferred Pavel Brendl over Daniel Sedin, but was also open to trading the pick outright. He knew how badly Brian Burke wanted the twins, so he was hoping to get a better package to trade down. Simultaneously he was shopping the pick and agreed to a deal with the Rangers who also were targeting Brendl. Dudley ended up taking Burke's relatively meager offer (two 3rd round picks) since he'd still be delivering Brendl to the Rangers.

Then in 2003, Dudley was now GM in Florida and they had Nathan Horton on the top of their board. Dudley figured he could trade down a couple spots and still get Horton. He tried to drum up a bidding war between Carolina and Pittsburgh, but in the end he only got a modest package out of the Penguins.

Going back, San Jose's traded out of the #2 spot a couple times. In 1998, Dean Lombardi wanted a cornerstone defender (Brad Stuart) since they had a decent amount of young forwards. The flipped spots with Nashville who wanted a (theoretical) high scoring forward to sell as their new franchise player (David Legwand).

And then one of my favorite anecdotes was the Sharks trading #2 in 1993. Their scouting room was split but co-GM Chuck Grillo pulled rank and forced them to take Viktor Kozlov since they were lacking a franchise center. Lombardi was tasked with negotiating a trade down where they could still land Kozlov. In the end they took a fairly forgettable return from Hartford.

But the juicy rumor was that Quebec made a last minute offer of an unsigned Peter Forsberg for the pick. Quebec wanted Chris Pronger to go with all of their young forwards. Lombardi fumed to the press afterwards, almost insinuating that he would have done the deal if Quebec had allotted him time to get Forsberg signed.

That CBA allowed certain unsigned European draft picks to sign offer sheets. The previous summer Teemu Selanne signed one with Calgary (1.5 mil signing bonus, 3 years x 400K) which Winnipeg begrudgingly matched. There were rumors that a couple teams might be willing to offer Forsberg a 4-5 mil signing bonus. San Jose couldn't risk having to match a bloated offer sheet and there was no compensation if they didn't match.

 

[karltonian]

My guess if the Sharks get another first, posters will kick up a storm about that

only ones that don't know anything

 

[archangel2]

only ones that don't know anything

Oilers had Hall and Hopkins back to back after finishing last and I remember that upset people

 

[karltonian]

Oilers had Hall and Hopkins back to back after finishing last and I remember that upset people

no what pissed people off was them then winning the lottery to get yakupov after that,THEN winning the lottery to get mcdavid. new jersey also won the lottery twice within 3 years. buffalo "won" twice in 4 years but they were last place both times. after that the rule was implemented.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Going back, San Jose's traded out of the #2 spot a couple times. In 1998, Dean Lombardi wanted a cornerstone defender (Brad Stuart) since they had a decent amount of young forwards. The flipped spots with Nashville who wanted a (theoretical) high scoring forward to sell as their new franchise player (David Legwand).

To expand on this, Lombardi made it widely known that he wanted Legwand, even going so far as to interview him multiple times. So when he traded down, getting another first-rounder in the process, people were a little shocked. Lombardi basically boasted to the media afterward, saying it had all been a ruse and Stuart had always been the primary target. Apparently, Bettman wasn't happy with these shenanigans, and I've always wondered if he and the Sharks suffered for it.

 

[Coffee]

As a Sharks fan, I'd probably trade down as far down as 3.

Also a Sharks fan and would probably trade down as far as 3 too.

What the heck!!? Why? roll two outstanding centers

 

[Grinner]

What the heck!!? Why? roll two outstanding centers

Hopefully, we will already be doing just that.

 

[Sasso09]

I don't think you decide to take a winger just because he's a winger rather than a center. Center can always be played at wing, especially from ages 18-23. If it was a dman maybe, but just decide which of hagens/martone you prefer and take that guy.

True, but i'm also looking at the size element here. Was just wondering where most Sharks fans heads were at.

What other piece? A worthless late 1st? That's stupid. We'd stay at #1 and take whoever we think is BPA. There is always an order of preference.

If they're trading back it won't be for an addition of a later 1st. The example i used was 3rd and 17th, at 17 in this draft you're going to have a really good prospect.

 

[Sasso09]

He hasn't proven anything yet and could easily bust just like 75% of prospects drafted in that range.

So could anyone you take at #1...

i think it's safe to say Musty will be a player at this point in the NHL at the very least.

 

[Sasso09]

On a draft trade value chart, moving from 1 to 3 should snag you an 8th overall pick.

So if a team is willing to go 3+8 for 1, or 3+that crappy teams 1st rounder next year...then maybe worth it.

ehh, maybe in fantasy land or during draft years with a clear #1 with a drop off at 2. Hagens, Martone, Schaefer, Misa, Frondell and McQueen imo are all tightly bunched. There's no way i'm giving up 3 and 8 for 1 in this draft. Hagens for Martone/Schaefer and Hensler/Ryabkin?

I think 3 and 17 are much closer to true value than 3 and 8

What the heck!!? Why? roll two outstanding centers

Umm, the thinking is that they already have that setup with Celebrini and Smith

 

[Sasso09]

No debate here for me as well, take BPA.

It’s not like having Jumbo, Marleau and Pavelski was a problem….

Jumbo, Marleau and Pavelski were an average of 6'3" 220 though. Celebrini, Hagens and Smith would be an average of 5'11" 180. I don't know if i can remember any team that had that kind of talent up the middle at that size, generally speaking you want some size at center. If you're converting Smith to wing then everything fits.

Celebrini is 5'11.75" 190
Hagens 5'10" 175
Smith 5'11.75" 171

Are we even sure that Hagens goes first?

Obviously a lot can change, but if the draft happens right now, i think Hagens still has the lead on Martone in a vacuum

 

[Sasso09]

San Jose is not getting 1st overall two years in a row. But yea, I'd take BPA.

Sure looks like they'll have the best chance.

I thought they dont allow you to get 1st OA 2 years in a row.

says who?

Sharks should've never been a position to draft Michkov. If Anaheim or Columbus drafted Michkov 2 or 3 like he was supposed to go, we'd have Carlsson instead like we really wanted

Carlsson would solve a lot of problems with his size.... Celebrini-Leo would be incredible.

 

[Sasso09]

Best player available; however, I will say that, relative to let’s say the last 4 drafts, Schaefer is better amongst recent defenceman (even number 1 I would say) than Hagens or Misa rank amongst recent forwards; granted, an elite 2C or above average 1C (which I think those two project to) is probably worth more to most teams than a top pairing D man, but relative to recent players in the recent drafts, I think Schaefer is the best player available, and would be my pick, especially given San Jose’s centre situation

I would tend to agree.... Schaefer might be the best D prospect since Dahlin, probably a bit better than Power.

San Jose is obviously in an ideal situation with the next two drafts. I'm not 100% sure I think Schaefer is BPA just yet but I think he'll emerge as more of a contender as the season goes on and could very easily be BPA. Dickinson while good, does not have the talent that Schaefer has, I think Dickinson will probably be a top 4 dman but his ceiling is closer to that then top pairing dman or #1. Due to his impressive physical attributes I think it could be possible but not guaranteed.

I think Schaefer has #1 dman potential who can effectivly QB a quarterback and play PK while Hagens has impressive qualities I think his size and attributes don't make him a slam dunk #1OA that was assumed before September.

Hagens is not Celebrini level in my opinion and even if someone wants to make the case he has the same or greater offensive talent which I don't agree with, Celebrinis physicality is impressive for a 18 year old in the NHL and he will continue to use that to his strength as he gets stronger. So I can see why the Sharks would prefer Schaefer or Misa if they had #1OA, I think its harder for an organization to pick a winger 1 OA unless they are heads and shoulders above their competition like Lafreniere.

If for some hypothetical reason a different team didn't pick Hagens 1OA I think becomes a lot more likely they could pick Martone over him but I don't think that is too likely for them to pick a winger over a possible 1C or 1D.

While i agree that Schaefer has higher ceiling than Dickinson, i absolutely think Dickinson has 1D potential and might have been the best D in a very deep D draft in 2024.

 

[Sasso09]

San Jose is obviously in an ideal situation with the next two drafts. I'm not 100% sure I think Schaefer is BPA just yet but I think he'll emerge as more of a contender as the season goes on and could very easily be BPA. Dickinson while good, does not have the talent that Schaefer has, I think Dickinson will probably be a top 4 dman but his ceiling is closer to that then top pairing dman or #1. Due to his impressive physical attributes I think it could be possible but not guaranteed.

I think Schaefer has #1 dman potential who can effectivly QB a quarterback and play PK while Hagens has impressive qualities I think his size and attributes don't make him a slam dunk #1OA that was assumed before September.

Hagens is not Celebrini level in my opinion and even if someone wants to make the case he has the same or greater offensive talent which I don't agree with, Celebrinis physicality is impressive for a 18 year old in the NHL and he will continue to use that to his strength as he gets stronger. So I can see why the Sharks would prefer Schaefer or Misa if they had #1OA, I think its harder for an organization to pick a winger 1 OA unless they are heads and shoulders above their competition like Lafreniere.

If for some hypothetical reason a different team didn't pick Hagens 1OA I think becomes a lot more likely they could pick Martone over him but I don't think that is too likely for them to pick a winger over a possible 1C or 1D.

I for sure take Hagens over Celebrini, both very good 2-way, Celebrini better in his own end, Hagens has much higher offensive ceiling imo. I def see Hagens being the 1C on that team.

 

[Hodge]

If they're trading back it won't be for an addition of a later 1st. The example i used was 3rd and 17th, at 17 in this draft you're going to have a really good prospect.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=17

Go look at this list of 17th overall picks. Apart from Kyle Connor in the deepest draft of all time and Tomas Hertl inexplicably falling in 2012, it's straight up garbage for the last 20 years. Absolutely not worth trading down from 1st overall for. Once you get past the top five in any draft it's a total crapshoot. Maybe even top three. Fans are in extreme denial about this so they can continue dreaming about all their mediocre prospects saving the team. A perfect example is you thinking Musty is a guaranteed NHLer.

 

[Coffee]

ehh, maybe in fantasy land or during draft years with a clear #1 with a drop off at 2. Hagens, Martone, Schaefer, Misa, Frondell and McQueen imo are all tightly bunched. There's no way i'm giving up 3 and 8 for 1 in this draft. Hagens for Martone/Schaefer and Hensler/Ryabkin?

I think 3 and 17 are much closer to true value than 3 and 8


Umm, the thinking is that they already have that setup with Celebrini and Smith

Roll 3 or move smith to wing

 

[Sasso09]

If that's the case it'll come down to how much weight Hagens can put on as Celebrini is 190lbs and Hagens is 176lbs.

14 lbs is nothing between 17 and 18, i would say most prospects gain at least that. Celebrini and Hagens are pretty much the same size. The average adult male is 8 lbs per inch so when you factor that in, their build is even closer.

 

[Sasso09]

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=17

Go look at this list of 17th overall picks. Apart from Kyle Connor in the deepest draft of all time and Tomas Hertl inexplicably falling in 2012, it's straight up garbage for the last 20 years. Absolutely not worth trading down from 1st overall for. Once you get past the top five in any draft it's a total crapshoot. Maybe even top three. Fans are in extreme denial about this so they can continue dreaming about all their mediocre prospects saving the team. A perfect example is you thinking Musty is a guaranteed NHLer.

Musty is a guarantee NHLer, the only thing in question is the capacity. I also love when people try to do what you're currently doing with all the 17th overall picks knowing full and well there's many all stars drafted after 17 every year. Not to mention there's a ton of very good players on that list, former allstars, current top pair D, likely future top pair D

Bobby Clarke (top 20 forward of all time)
Jason Allison
Kevin Hatcher
Kevin McCarthy
Zach Parise
Martin Hanzal
Skoula
Andrew Cassells
Carla Colaicovo
Brent Sutter
Murray Craven
Hertl
Cherepanov (what could have been)
Connor
Jake Gardner
Travis Sanheim
Reichel
Ty Smith
Lilejegren
ASP

Ton of top 4 D and top 6 forwards i'm seeing on that list, a ton of value.

You using this selective hindsight to claim the 17th overall pick is useless, doesn't make you correct. In the real world, the 17th overall pick holds quite a bit of value to any GM. The 17th overall pick certainly holds at least enough value to move you from 3rd to 1st in a draft that has 3 or more prospects in contention for that 1st pick, IF that ends up being the case.

I'm not disagreeing with you on taking Hagens, that would be my move too, i'm disagreeing on your assessment of the value of a mid 1st round pick.

 

[Sasso09]

I thought teams can not win back to back anymore?

I don't think that's true, if it is then it's news to me. I think the rule is that you can't jump up above your initial spot more than once in a 5 year period or something like that. If you finish last in the league 3 years in a row you can end up with the top pick each of those years.... i think

 

[Sasso09]

Is Martone that much better than Misa. He is having a hell of a season in Sag. Lots of hockey left but Martone might not even be the best eligible player in the OHL. He is a top 3 for me in the draft but l would like to see how the season pans out.
Remember when Chernyshov returns from surgery his C will be Mike Misa and I guarantee they will be one of the best lines in the CHL with Epperson or Willis on the other side.

I think Martone gets the boost due to physical tools and what he brings outside of talent to the game. He's a true power forward in an era that doesn't really have many left anymore. I could certainly see Misa passing him though, he's having a redemption year, 14 months ago it was seen as Misa 1st and Hagens 2nd

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Just stay at 1 and take the BPA. Could be Hagens, could be Martone by June, who knows.

Worst case scenario we fall to 3 and take Schaefer, there's really no losing here.

 

[Hodge]

Musty is a guarantee NHLer, the only thing in question is the capacity. I also love when people try to do what you're currently doing with all the 17th overall picks knowing full and well there's many all stars drafted after 17 every year. Not to mention there's a ton of very good players on that list, former allstars, current top pair D, likely future top pair D

Bobby Clarke (top 20 forward of all time)
Jason Allison
Kevin Hatcher
Kevin McCarthy
Zach Parise
Martin Hanzal
Skoula
Andrew Cassells
Carla Colaicovo
Brent Sutter
Murray Craven
Hertl
Cherepanov (what could have been)
Connor
Jake Gardner
Travis Sanheim
Reichel
Ty Smith
Lilejegren
ASP

Ton of top 4 D and top 6 forwards i'm seeing on that list, a ton of value.

You using this selective hindsight to claim the 17th overall pick is useless, doesn't make you correct. In the real world, the 17th overall pick holds quite a bit of value to any GM. The 17th overall pick certainly holds at least enough value to move you from 3rd to 1st in a draft that has 3 or more prospects in contention for that 1st pick, IF that ends up being the case.

I'm not disagreeing with you on taking Hagens, that would be my move too, i'm disagreeing on your assessment of the value of a mid 1st round pick.

You changed my mind. We really need that 17th overall pick for a chance at drafting the next Lukas Reichel, Ty Smith or Timothy Liljegren. Maybe we’ll even be lucky enough to get Carlo Colaiacovo.