Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[RoyalCitySlicker]

If every player was committed to putting in the necessary effort, they may have won.

Yes of course.

31 teams just don't want it bad enough. Or are there varying degrees of wanting it-ness? Are you the arbiter of judging a teams effort? Or is it just lose = no effort?

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

With the way this team is structured and the contract lengths and that 50% of the cap tied up in 4 forwards we can’t afford to be in the middle. If like you say that we are in the middle then everyone’s job should be up for question.

It's fair that there should perhaps be more accountability - at least publicly. But honestly, I'm not one for making a change just for the sake of a change - especially when it will most likely be a trade where the Leafs get worse, at least on paper (they'll likely be overpaying to open up some cap space).

I look at the team and to me, they still look like they are close. I can also see how some would disagree, but I'd prefer to make a few smaller changes and try to run it back with the same group. Again, just my opinion.

I just don't see the ridiculous extremes some on this site go to - positive or negative - as helpful to the dialogue around this team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

For the record...

Tampa has won 11 straight series. The Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series, and are one of only 2 teams to take them to 7 games.

Leafs have now lost to the Stanley Cup finalist, in 7 games, in 3 of the last 4 years.

Fun fact: Tampa's 2nd worst series goal differential in that stretch was against the 2020 Blue Jackets.

 

[ToneDog]

It's fair that there should perhaps be more accountability - at least publicly. But honestly, I'm not one for making a change just for the sake of a change - especially when it will most likely be a trade where the Leafs get worse, at least on paper (they'll likely be overpaying to open up some cap space).

I look at the team and to me, they still look like they are close. I can also see how some would disagree, but I'd prefer to make a few smaller changes and try to run it back with the same group. Again, just my opinion.

I just don't see the ridiculous extremes some on this site go to - positive or negative - as helpful to the dialogue around this team.

I preferred a coaching change and then running it back but I guess that might be next year's plan.

 

[Dreakmur]

My thoughts and opinions are always clear and well articulated, and my positions are consistent. The only one who seems to have an (in your words) "infatuation with Dubas" here is you. You literally can't have a discussion about anything without bringing him up and lying about how other people feel about him. I don't care about Dubas. I care about the Toronto Maple Leafs, and what's best for them.

I don't think everything he does is great. Questioning Dubas doesn't make one wrong, though being wrong does make one wrong, and some people here sure do like to be wrong about Dubas and misrepresent the things he's done and pretty much everything about him, and that's very distracting to those of us that want to have real hockey discussions. Just because somebody is able to look at things objectively, and consider context and nuance, it doesn't mean that that person is infatuated with Dubas. Just because somebody is capable of recognizing and understanding the good that Dubas has done for this team, instead of just raging about playoff outcomes and pointing at incorrect reasons to try and justify counterproductive actions, it doesn't mean that they think he's infallible. It's such a ridiculous strawman.

Your support for Dubas is always clear, but your opinions on specifics is always cloaked. The posted who is critical of Dubas has the wrong opinions, but you never seem to share anything other than a vague disagreement with them.

Even in the above, you vaguely say you don’t agree with everything Dubas does, but you’ve never actually done that. I’m sure if pressed, you would come up with something lame like he waited too long to fire Babcock or something else that isn’t really a criticism.

I think Dubas has done more good than bad.

Let's recap. You came in quoting me, and incorrectly stated that Nylander was overpaid (post #1869).

He is a little overpaid.

6.5 times 6 years was what he should have got.

You then incorrectly stated what his contract is (post #1869).

He signed a 45 million dollar contract. If you get out your calculator and divide that by 6 seasons, you’ll see it is a 7.5 million dollar per year deal. The cap hit is less because he didn’t honour the entire 6 years.

You then brought up Pastrnak as your exclusive cherry-picked comparable (post #1907).

I brought him up as one of the comparable players, since you have pointed to in the past.

You could have brought up different comparables, but that’s not the Dekes way. Your opinion is wrong and mine is a secret.

You then attempted to justify your incorrect stance on Nylander's contract by comparing his raw points to your cherry-picked player's raw points, incorrectly adjusted and contextualized, in exclusively their final season (post #1923).

I used the offensive production from their most important season prior to the contract. As offensive players who bring little else to the table, it’s a pretty reasonable place to start.

When it was pointed out how improper that was, you then switched entirely to comparing exclusively the even strength scoring rates of Nylander and exclusively this one cherry-picked player Pastrnak, in exclusively one season that you had previously referred to as "almost not worth looking at" (post #1950). While doing so, you completely excluded the PP and the significant 5.61 P/60 difference in their production in that game state that year, instead choosing to exaggerate a 0.2 P/60 difference at ES (post #1950).

Their second most important season was one in which they had completely different roles. One for significant PP time and other did not. I chose to compare their common ice time because I think that most accurately reflects their offensive ability.

I have explained all of those items a few times now.

This is not even close to proper contract valuation, though it does show us how one could come to the incorrect conclusion that Nylander is overpaid if they choose to cherry pick while excluding the majority of relevant information.

My evaluation is different from Dubas, and is therefore wrong.

Your evaluation is a secret… aside from it gets the same result that Dubas did.

 

[ACC1224]

It's fair that there should perhaps be more accountability - at least publicly. But honestly, I'm not one for making a change just for the sake of a change - especially when it will most likely be a trade where the Leafs get worse, at least on paper (they'll likely be overpaying to open up some cap space).

I look at the team and to me, they still look like they are close. I can also see how some would disagree, but I'd prefer to make a few smaller changes and try to run it back with the same group. Again, just my opinion.

I just don't see the ridiculous extremes some on this site go to - positive or negative - as helpful to the dialogue around this team.

Team doesn't need to change much other than the obvious.
Change that is needed is the Coach, IMO.

 

[Nineteen67]

Yes of course.

31 teams just don't want it bad enough. Or are there varying degrees of wanting it-ness? Are you the arbiter of judging a teams effort? Or is it just lose = no effort?

No, some players don’t want to do what it takes to win. Some don’t know how.
I have no idea about their desire to win.
Im sure you’ve heard Gretzky comment about sacrifice after their first trip to the Cup final.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your support for Dubas is always clear, but your opinions on specifics is always cloaked. The posted who is critical of Dubas has the wrong opinions, but you never seem to share anything other than a vague disagreement with them. Even in the above, you vaguely say you don’t agree with everything Dubas does, but you’ve never actually done that.

I support the Maple Leafs. I do not "support Dubas", beyond supporting when he has positive impact on the Maple Leafs. Somebody is not wrong for being critical of Dubas - I have been critical of things in the past myself. Somebody is wrong when they are wrong however, and somebody can be wrong while they are criticizing Dubas - which seems to be the distinction you're misunderstanding here. My opinion on specifics is never cloaked. If I disagree with something somebody says, I am always clear and direct, and most importantly, I don't start personally attacking the individual and spreading lies about them like you have to me here.

He is a little overpaid. 6.5 times 6 years was what he should have got.

He is not overpaid. The 6.96m x 6 he got is reasonable and consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

He signed a 45 million dollar contract. If you get out your calculator and divide that by 6 seasons, you’ll see it is a 7.5 million dollar per year deal.

The team received a cap hit of 6.96m for each year of Nylander's contract. His term is 6 years. He received a 6.96m x 6 contract.

I brought him up as one of the comparable players, since you have pointed to in the past.

He is one of the numerous comparables I have pointed to in past contract comparisons, but that doesn't mean you can use him exclusively and then exclude all information in that comparison that contradicts your position.

You could have brought up different comparables

I'm not really interested in putting in the work to rehash years old contract comparisons that will never change your mind in a post-year discussion thread. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't highlight your horrible methodology when you initiate a discussion with me on the topic. Other comparables aren't exactly hard to find - Skinner, E. Kane, Saad, Forsberg, Seguin, Landeskog, Michalek, Mackinnon, Larkin, Hischier, RNH, etc. It's a very populated cap hit %/term range.

I used the offensive production from their most important season prior to the contract. As offensive players who bring little else to the table, it’s a pretty reasonable place to start.

You compared raw points, incorrectly contextualized, in exclusively their final season. And the biggest issue isn't even that that's where you started; it's that that's where you attempted to end.

Their second most important season was one in which they had completely different roles. One for significant PP time and other did not.

They didn't have "completely different roles". Pastrnak didn't get much PP time, but he also didn't do well in the PP time he got. Nylander had an excellent season on the PP, and only got a moderate amount himself. You could have showed their PP scoring rates (something you had already switched to to help your argument at ES) to account for the PP time discrepancy, but you instead chose to entirely exclude this information that contradicted your position.

My evaluation is different from Dubas, and is therefore wrong.

No, your evaluation is wrong and wildly incomplete, and is therefore wrong. Has nothing to do with Dubas.

 

[Captain Crunch]

The post wasn't really about blaming the refs either, for the record. That said, I understand there's this stigma around pointing at refs, and if it was just a matter of the penalty disparity in the series, or if we got screwed by refs but it didn't directly alter the outcome, it would be one thing, but when you're up against a potential dynasty and an extremely abnormal number of absolutely horrible mistakes by a factor external to the team directly leads to losses in two consecutive series-defining games, that's some relevant context and it's okay to acknowledge what happened.

I understand that patience is wearing thin, and that's not to say that "we are perfect, everybody did everything perfectly, there's no other factor that impacted our result, and nothing can be improved on or altered moving forward", but let's call a spade a spade. The sky is not falling. We are not far away. We were good enough to win against a team that has 2 cups with a similar build and is currently on their way to the Stanley Cup finals again this year, and a series of incorrect calls/non calls in multiple series-defining moments was a primary factor in the outcome that occurred, that still only occurred by the slimmest of margins.

I'm not sure why so many were able to acknowledge the impact for similar situations in the past (like the infamous Vegas-San Jose 5 min major), but seem so opposed to acknowledging the impact here. You can want them to have overcome it, while still acknowledging the abnormalities that occurred.

I only mentioned the refs because you had talked about them in your post.
Couldn’t Keefe have challenged the high sticking call on Kerfoot? If I remember correctly, wasn’t it Hedman’s stick that caused Kerfoot’s stick to hit him?
Also, who’s to blame for the Leafs PP to dry up yet again down the stretch and through the 1st round? That played a huge factor in the series. Keefe has to ultimately take the blame for that.

 

[Captain Crunch]

For the record...

Tampa has won 11 straight series. The Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series, and are one of only 2 teams to take them to 7 games.

Leafs have now lost to the Stanley Cup finalist, in 7 games, in 3 of the last 4 years.

Fun fact: Tampa's 2nd worst series goal differential in that stretch was against the 2020 Blue Jackets.

So what timeline do you have, Dekes? Or do you not have one, in terms of how long management, especially Shanahan, but Dubas as well, should remain?
It’s nice to sugarcoat all their 1st round exits/collapses, but when is enough truly enough?

 

[Dreakmur]

I support the Maple Leafs. I do not "support Dubas", beyond supporting when he has positive impact on the Maple Leafs. Somebody is not wrong for being critical of Dubas - I have been critical of things in the past myself. Somebody is wrong when they are wrong however, and somebody can be wrong while they are criticizing Dubas - which seems to be the distinction you're misunderstanding here. My opinion on specifics is never cloaked. If I disagree with something somebody says, I am always clear and direct, and most importantly, I don't start personally attacking the individual and spreading lies about them like you have to me here.

So you’re not going to share your opinion? I’m almost as shocked as you were when the Leafs lost again.

He is not overpaid. The 6.96m x 6 he got is reasonable and consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

He is slightly overpaid. He got more than 6.5 on a 6 year deal.

The team received a cap hit of 6.96m for each year of Nylander's contract. His term is 6 years. He received a 6.96m x 6 contract.

He signed a 45 million dollar contract.

He is one of the numerous comparables I have pointed to in past contract comparisons, but that doesn't mean you can use him exclusively and then exclude all information in that comparison that contradicts your position.

He’s one of numerous players who should have been paid more than Nylander.

I'm not really interested in putting in the work to rehash years old contract comparisons that will never change your mind in a post-year discussion thread. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't highlight your horrible methodology when you initiate a discussion with me on the topic. Other comparables aren't exactly hard to find - Skinner, E. Kane, Saad, Forsberg, Seguin, Landeskog, Michalek, Mackinnon, Larkin, Hischier, RNH, etc. It's a very populated cap hit %/term range.

Dubas had all those comparable players and still managed to overpay Nylander?

You compared raw points, incorrectly contextualized, in exclusively their final season. And the biggest issue isn't even that that's where you started; it's that that's where you attempted to end.

Contextualized doesn’t in fact mean spun to support Dubas.

They didn't have "completely different roles". Pastrnak didn't get much PP time, but he also didn't do well in the PP time he got. Nylander had an excellent season on the PP, and only got a moderate amount himself. You could have showed their PP scoring rates (something you had already switched to to help your argument at ES) to account for the PP time discrepancy, but you instead chose to entirely exclude this information that contradicted your position.

You can do that in your Dubas-favourable version has of the player comparison.

Using PP points in a comparison when only one player got significant PP time is foolish. I realize you have to do foolish things to fully contort yourself to support Dubas, but still.

No, your evaluation is wrong and wildly incomplete, and is therefore wrong. Has nothing to do with Dubas.

It’s crazy that a guy who is repeatedly and continually wrong about this team still thinks people should listen when he says “I told you so”.

 

[ToneDog]

Oilers, Rangers, Blues, Florida, Nashville all also lost to a SC finalist but haven't heard if any are raising banners or planning parades.

I mean STL was the only team to win a game vs Colorado.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Oilers, Rangers, Blues, Florida, Nashville all also lost to a SC finalist but haven't heard if any are raising banners or planning parades.

I mean STL was the only team to win a game vs Colorado.

Which teams are raising banners or planning parades for losing to the SC finalists. Not the Oilers, Rangers, Leafs, Panthers, Press. Is there any other team?

 

[ACC1224]

Which teams are raising banners or planning parades for losing to the SC finalists. Not the Oilers, Rangers, Leafs, Panthers, Press. Is there any other team?

Good catch.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Good catch.

Yeah, I knew that Toronto wasn't planning a parade or raising a banner, so I thought who could the poster be referring to?

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah, I knew that Toronto wasn't planning a parade or raising a banner, so I thought who could the poster be referring to?

Forget it. Not worth it. I should be happy that the Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series and that we beat Tampa 3 times while the Rangers beat them twice. GLG.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Forget it. Not worth it. I should be happy that the Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series and that we beat Tampa 3 times while the Rangers beat them twice. GLG.

You can raise your own banner at home if you want.

 

[ToneDog]

You can raise your own banner at home if you want.

Yup been raising it every year since Lanny beat the Isles in OT in game #7 on the Island and without our best dman.

 

[Racer88]

Watching game one of the cup finals and it’s sad to see how far ahead of the Leafs both these teams are. Their compete and intensity levels are off the charts

 

[Racer88]

For the record...

Tampa has won 11 straight series. The Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series, and are one of only 2 teams to take them to 7 games.

Leafs have now lost to the Stanley Cup finalist, in 7 games, in 3 of the last 4 years.

Fun fact: Tampa's 2nd worst series goal differential in that stretch was against the 2020 Blue Jackets.

The operative word is lost……we have lost. With this talent laden team we should of won at least once by now.
Dubas has done an unconventional rebuild and we have seen no indication that it will be successful as we keep losing to different levels of opposition and by different ways.
I cannot buy into moral victories at this point in the rebuild
ps
your fun fact is not fun……….it’s sad

 

[LilySmoov]

How did Dubas do an unconventional rebuild? The first year after going scorched earth, under a GM who was not in fact Kyle Dubas, we were a 95 point team. There was no more "rebuilding" at that point.

 

[Bomber0104]

For the record...

Tampa has won 11 straight series. The Leafs are the only team to have scored more goals than Tampa in a series, and are one of only 2 teams to take them to 7 games.

Leafs have now lost to the Stanley Cup finalist, in 7 games, in 3 of the last 4 years.

Fun fact: Tampa's 2nd worst series goal differential in that stretch was against the 2020 Blue Jackets.

You should probably stop drawing more attention to the fact the Leafs lost yet again in the first round.

Read the room, literally no one cares about "fun facts" about how we lost in the first round for the sixth year in a row.

Are you so used to it by now you have to cherry-pick fun little useless stats to make it less pathetic?

How did Dubas do an unconventional rebuild? The first year after going scorched earth, under a GM who was not in fact Kyle Dubas, we were a 95 point team. There was no more "rebuilding" at that point.

I would say paying four forwards including two wingers half of the cap...

Yeah I would call that unconventional.

Yup, definitely.

I mean, surely you've heard it by now?

This is a new idea to you?!

 

[LilySmoov]

I would say paying four forwards including two wingers half of the cap...

Yeah I would call that unconventional.

Yup, definitely.

I mean, surely you've heard it by now?

This is a new idea to you?!

"Building" and "rebuilding" are different words. Do you know the difference?

 

[Bomber0104]

"Building" and "rebuilding" are different words. Do you know the difference?

Really?

After blowing half the cap on four forwards including two wingers, we're "building"?

Trading away a first for a handful of games from Nick Foligno is obviously a hallmark of a building team.

Picking three times in a draft is a signature move of a building team.

Benching all young players for Simmonds/Cliffords/Spezzas/Holl/Giordano's, again classic building moves.

Signing a $4M backup goaltender with injury history, signature builder move.

Yup, you're definitely onto something here.

Imagine being told in 2016 after drafting Matthews 1st overall we'll still be "building" and searching for a first round win in 2022..

Unbelievable the standards you're trying to lower me to.

I won't accept it, ever.

And nor should this fanbase.

 

[LilySmoov]

Really?

We're "building"?

Trading away a first for a handful of games from Nick Foligno is obviously a hallmark of a building team.

Picking three times in a draft is a signature move of a building team.

Benching all young players for Simmonds/Cliffords/Spezzas/Holl/Giordano's, again classic building moves.

Signing a $4M backup goaltender with injury history, signature builder move.

Yup, you're definitely onto something here.

Imagine being told in 2016 after drafting Matthews 1st overall we'll still be "building" and searching for a first round win in 2022..

Unbelievable the standards you're trying to lower me to.

I won't accept it, ever.

And nor should this fanbase.

I don't think you're even following the conversation you inserted yourself into despite it being only 2 posts long 'cause nothing in your rambling has anything to do with what I initially posted.