Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[ACC1224]

Like who? Which goaltender, which defenseman? Give specific examples. Because I’ve gone through UFA’s and the deals handed out were not great. To say that the team would be better is a fallacy and simply not true, you have no idea if the team would be better. In fact the more you spend on a greater number of players the higher the chance of mistakes. So to simply say oh we could have more players in this one area = we will be better couldn’t be farther from the truth. We could easily be worse because we could have spent more on fringe players who were also not worth their contracts. I rather have 1 guy who is overpaid but at least can still give you 80 points, compared to 3 or 4 overpaid 3rd and fourth liners or an average goalie who is overpaid.

It’s not as simple as saying oh the money could have been used elsewhere.

With Dubas spending the money how would they be worse?

 

[rocketman588]

use CH%, this is such a stupid argument, "no one over 10 million has won the cup" the cap has never been this high so there haven't been many players with cap hits over 10 million.

before last year the talking point was that no team won a round with someone over 10 million, but that has quickly become false, so now it has changed, it is such a silly argument.

Don't think the forwards are similar at all, but spending on 4 forwards can be critiqued, sure.

He did use cap %

50% of it is tied into 4 forwards it's in the first sentence

 

[Racer88]

I’m looking for specific examples. Which forward combination? Which defenseman. I’ve seen a lot of people say we should have waited for Pietrangelo but in reality we would have only saved 2 million on a Pietrangelo deal so we wouldn’t be a much different team than we are now.

Also which goaltender were you willing to overpay on? Right now I see a lot of overpaid goaltenders right across the NHL. And the ones signed through UFA have not been good for their teams

There is no way we can go back in history and name specific names. That is a straw man argument being as we are not GM’s so we would have no way of knowing who was available. However that doesn’t change the fact that the Leafs would be better off with a different balance of the cap. It seems the teams that are going further then us and winning rounds and winning cups found that balance. They found better goalies, better defence and many of them have much better bottom 6 in their forward group.
that is literally the job of the GM to go out, identify these needs and fulfill them

 

[hotpaws]

I’m looking for specific examples. Which forward combination? Which defenseman. I’ve seen a lot of people say we should have waited for Pietrangelo but in reality we would have only saved 2 million on a Pietrangelo deal so we wouldn’t be a much different team than we are now.

Also which goaltender were you willing to overpay on? Right now I see a lot of overpaid goaltenders right across the NHL. And the ones signed through UFA have not been good for their teams

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

 

[hotpaws]

Yes and who are these middle class scrubs you are choosing over jt? Do you even have a hindsight plan where you know for sure who these players are that would have made us better ? Because middle class players are interchangeable today with their cap hit playing less of a role compared to the traits you need to focus on.

Only name I really see is keeping Kadri, but we could have kept him at 3C even with JTs 11 mil hit.

Our cap allocation to the core is fine. Dubas has enough cap to surround them. Hasn't convinced me he knows how.

JT has always been grossly overated and that's why we didn't improve with him and why the Islanders improved without him .

when you spend 11m on a player you want someone who tilts the ice and not a net front presence who needs his linemates to create offensive opportunities for him while also covering up for him defensively

hut hey , he has 3yrs left so i guess we're duty bound as Leaf fans to defend his slow ass to the death since there's no one that we can dump this slug on

 

[Apex Predator]

I’m looking for specific examples. Which forward combination? Which defenseman. I’ve seen a lot of people say we should have waited for Pietrangelo but in reality we would have only saved 2 million on a Pietrangelo deal so we wouldn’t be a much different team than we are now.

Also which goaltender were you willing to overpay on? Right now I see a lot of overpaid goaltenders right across the NHL. And the ones signed through UFA have not been good for their teams

Playing devils advocate here:

Jacob Markstrom was a free agent. He didn’t have the best playoff this year but he was a free agent. they wouldn’t trade Kadri and sign Markstrom. They have cap money to spend on a third line center and. Top 6 winger. We Cana assume the defense stays the same. Trevor Moore isn’t traded and plays in our bottom 6.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Fun fact: Tampa allocated only 5.6m to their primary bottom 6 forwards this year, which was 1.7m less than Toronto.

I wonder if they were built horribly too...

 

[Trapper]

JT has always been grossly overated and that's why we didn't improve with him and why the Islanders improved without him .

when you spend 11m on a player you want someone who tilts the ice and not a net front presence who needs his linemates to create offensive opportunities for him while also covering up for him defensively

hut hey , he has 3yrs left so i guess we're duty bound as Leaf fans to defend his slow ass to the death since there's no one that we can dump this slug on

Don’t see us taking the next steps until we balance the Cap. This has been argued since day 1 (and the people who argue this seem to have to constantly defend this position even with a 0-4 proof positive as evidence).
Remarkable.
Odds are someday a team with a 11 million player will win it (a McDavid, Rangers with Panarin) but doubtful the first team is going to be the one that sports 3.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Jacob Markstrom was a free agent.

Markstrom hasn't been particularly great since he signed, to be fair, and he had arguably the most disastrous series of the playoffs this year. He (and anyone that signed him) would have been ripped to shreds here.

 

[Dreakmur]

No, I've shared my opinion quite a bit, both in our discussions and with other people. I have also unfortunately been forced to address what my opinion is not more than normal with you, since you keep spreading lies about me.

Your opinion that Dubas is wonderful is shared quite a bit… but why you think that is cloaked.

He was not overpaid. He signed a contract that will pay him 41.76m over 6 seasons, resulting in a cap hit of 6.96m each year. That is consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

He signed a contract that was more than his true comparables got.

It's not. 8.89% of the cap on a 6 year term is more than 8.76% of the cap on a 6 year term.

Percentage of cap is different than more money, and Nylander’s cap hit is lower due to some strange cap loopholes that happened to get hit when he signed after his holdout.

That's what I always do, and that's how I know that Nylander isn't overpaid. You should try it yourself.

Yes, the guy who always agrees with every Dubas does clearly looks at the facts before forming his opinion…

Some of us can look at a move and evaluate it without inserting an agenda.

Even if we were to go by your personal belief that it isn't as valuable, that doesn't justify excluding that relevant information entirely in a contract comparison, especially when you've already excluded so much other relevant information, and it has a meaningful impact on the conclusion you're attempting to draw.

Every time you focus on one stat, it is to the exclusion the others. Like when you just look at points, you’re excluding the fact that goals are more valuable than assist.

Nylander is an offense only players. The only part of his game we need to look at is the offensive production.

I don't have any cloaked opinions, but my very clear and open opinions have been consistently correct.

Consistently correct about us being an elite team while also not being able to win a single round of playoff hockey. Yeah, you nailed it!

 

[hotpaws]

Fun fact: Tampa allocated only 5.6m to their primary bottom 6 forwards this year, which was 1.7m less than Toronto.

I wonder if they were built horribly too...

Fun fact we’re 1 of 2 teams that haven’t won a series in the cap era , the other team is Seattle .

 

[Dreakmur]

Fun fact: Tampa allocated only 5.6m to their primary bottom 6 forwards this year, which was 1.7m less than Toronto.

I wonder if they were built horribly too...

It’s almost as if understanding roles and chemistry allows a GM to better use limited cap space….

 

[ShaneFalco]

Fun fact we’re 1 of 2 teams that haven’t won a series in the cap era , the other team is Seattle .

Many dont seem to care as long as Dubas stays

 

[Nylanderthal]

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

Wouldn’t take any 11m combination of these interchangeable parts over a ppg 2way C who happens to be captain.

 

[hotpaws]

Wouldn’t take any 11m combination of these interchange parts over a ppg 2way C who happens to be captain.

Of course you wouldn’t , lol .

 

[francis246]

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

I find the Jarvis argument funny. Jarvis and Amirov were separated by 2 or 3 picks. Jarvis was never the leafs targeted player. Even if we had kept Marleau we were taking Amirov. The problem is there is no way to actually know if you’re better off. Everyone saying we are is assuming. But it’s just a good of a chance that we are worse. I’m not saying that having that cap space wouldn’t have helped. It POSSIBLY could have, but it’s not a guarantee that it would.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Of course you wouldn’t , lol .

Naz is about to get $7-9m+ And he cost his new team their season in 2 of the 3 years since being moved, marleau was a carcass at the time who was going to count against cap no matter what unless traded, kap is probably not going to be qualified, if mango didn’t have an extra year of term jersey who need good players would probably walk away from him, and Hyman has one decent knee and 6 more years of term at $5.5
How exactly do any of these guys over a ppg C make the team better?

 

[francis246]

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

Also Kadri and Hyman were not cap casualties. We had space to keep both. We moved on from Kadri because the organization was tired of him.

Hyman we could have kept, we could have matched his contract we chose not to. The other two were directly a result of Tavares yes.

 

[egd27]

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

 

[Nylanderthal]

Many dont seem to care as long as Dubas stays

Realistically I’d rather if certain posters buggered off. I really don’t care who the name of the GM as long as they continue to build an organization towards sustained contention and after following this team for Thirty plus years we finally have a group with that at top of mind and not useless crusty has-beens like Burke nonis or draftshmaft cliff

Also Kadri and Hyman were not cap casualties. We had space to keep both. We moved on from Kadri because the organization was tired of him.

Hyman we could have kept, we could have matched his contract we chose not to. The other two were directly a result of Tavares yes.

The other ones are basically replacement level and fodder on their current clubs

 

[egd27]

I really don’t care who the name of the GM as long as they continue to build an organization towards sustained contention

Think they'll get there any time soon?

 

[Nylanderthal]

Think they'll get there any time soon?

They’ve been there for a few seasons already

 

[Nineteen67]

you want specifics i'll give you SPECIFICS

mix and match and these are just our players we were forced to move because we signed Johnny PJ's
Kadri
Hyman
Kap
Jonnsson

also could have kept Marleau and saved our first which they turned into Jarvis

it's funny when you and others use this argument since it's like your saying if JT came off the books this year we'd have no one to spend his cap hit on and we'd be forced to play 11m under the cap

Would it have turned into Jarvis?

Fun fact we’re 1 of 2 teams that haven’t won a series in the cap era , the other team is Seattle .

Holy hades, that’s hilarious.

 

[Dreakmur]

They’ve been there for a few seasons already

Contending teams get out of the first round.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your opinion that Dubas is wonderful is shared quite a bit… but why you think that is cloaked.

The only thing I think is wonderful is when Dubas has a positive impact on the Maple Leafs, and I'm sure the majority of the fanbase has a similar opinion. Nothing is cloaked. I'm an open book.

He signed a contract that was more than his true comparables got.

He signed a contract that was consistent with the history of his post-ELC comparables.

Percentage of cap is different than more money

My mistake. You claimed to know about contracts, so I assumed that you understood we would be using cap hit percentages. He was not technically paid more in actual dollars, due to what the cap was at the time, but he did receive a bigger contract - which seemed to be what we were discussing.

Yes, the guy who always agrees with every Dubas does clearly looks at the facts before forming his opinion…

I don't agree with everything Dubas does. I evaluate each thing objectively based on the facts.

Some of us can look at a move and evaluate it without inserting an agenda.

Yes, it is possible, as I have shown. I recommend everybody practice it.

Every time you focus on one stat, it is to the exclusion the others.

You don't need to (and in fact shouldn't) just focus on one stat in a contract comparison. You should be including the relevant stats and information.

Like when you just look at points, you’re excluding the fact that goals are more valuable than assist.

Primary assists aren't notably less valuable than goals, and it's funny that you mention that, because I'm pretty much the only one that ever includes point, primary point, and goal production in contract comparisons. Looking at primary production instead doesn't change the fact that Nylander's contract was consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

Nylander is an offense only players. The only part of his game we need to look at is the offensive production.

Not only is that untrue, but you didn't even properly evaluate offensive production in the first place. You just weirdly cherry picked raw points in the final season and even strength scoring rate in the second last season, and then put it up against one cherry picked player and called it a day.

Consistently correct about us being an elite team

Being correct about the quality of our team is indeed one of the many things I am consistently correct about.

It’s almost as if understanding roles and chemistry allows a GM to better use limited cap space….

The GMs of both teams have shown an excellent ability to utilize limited cap space.