Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

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Building what exactly?

Here's what Lou added to the org his entire time here:

F.Andersen
C.McElhinney
R.Hainsey
P.Marleau

That's it.

And here's what Babs coaching built for them defensively:

Yr1: #15 xga/60
Yr2: #28 xga/60
Yr3: #24 xga/60
Yr4: #25 xga/60
Yr5: #28 xga/60


A complete, utter waste of the best group of ELC talent in hockey.
So you agree - he intentionally wasted the core's ELC years.
The only year the leafs were expected to make the playoffs with Lou was 2018

He should have held back Marner 1 more year and scratched Nylander more often in 2017

Getting Makar would have changed this franchise's fortunes .

Making the playoffs in 2017 was the worst thing to happen to Toronto in years
 
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You would probably be surprised to learn Julien Brisebois has been working in NHL front offices since the early 2000s and was AGM in Tampa for their entire build beginning in 2010. But sure, “rookies.”
Not sure why anybody would be surprised that both Brisebois and Dubas worked in NHL front offices and were Calder Cup winning assistant GMs prior to becoming NHL GM.
 
Not sure why anybody would be surprised that both Brisebois and Dubas worked in NHL front offices and were Calder Cup winning assistant GMs prior to becoming NHL GM.

Brisbois had almost 20 years in before he was made a GM. He held multiple titles in multiple organizations. Two Calder Cups and two more times made the finals.

But sure, let's pretend he and Dubas have the same experience...
 
You would probably be surprised to learn Julien Brisebois has been working in NHL front offices since the early 2000s and was AGM in Tampa for their entire build beginning in 2010. But sure, “rookies.”

So when does one stop being a rookie? Dubas was here as an AGM for 4 years, 3 of which were under the most experienced GM in NHL history in Lou, before becoming GM. On top of being an OHL GM for 3 years.

Some people don't need 20 years of experience to do a job properly or excel in it. Especially when that job has changed enough in the last decade to the point where that experience is probably not even as valuable as it once was.
 
Building what exactly?

Here's what Lou added to the org his entire time here:

F.Andersen
C.McElhinney
R.Hainsey
P.Marleau

That's it.

And here's what Babs coaching built for them defensively:

Yr1: #15 xga/60
Yr2: #28 xga/60
Yr3: #24 xga/60
Yr4: #25 xga/60
Yr5: #28 xga/60


A complete, utter waste of the best group of ELC talent in hockey.
Matthews has just now learned to compete in the playoffs and finally understanding what it takes. Due to the roster construction he had to over compensate, but there’s potential and he’s changed from laughing at being rag-dolled to smashing Sergachev’s face into the glass.
 
Not sure why anybody would be surprised that both Brisebois and Dubas worked in NHL front offices and were Calder Cup winning assistant GMs prior to becoming NHL GM.

Comparing Toronto to Tampa Bay and Kyle Dubas to Julien Brisebois is very unflattering if your on the Leafs side of the line. Why do we keep doing this?
 
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Matthews has just now learned to compete in the playoffs and finally understanding what it takes. Due to the roster construction he had to over compensate, but there’s potential and he’s changed from laughing at being rag-dolled to smashing Sergachev’s face into the glass.
Exactly Matthews and Nylander in particular were not the players they are now under Dubas and Lou. Marner I think had a better transition to pro hockey in terms of being more complete from the start
 
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Brisbois had almost 20 years in before he was made a GM. He held multiple titles in multiple organizations. Two Calder Cups and two more times made the finals.

But sure, let's pretend he and Dubas have the same experience...
Their resumes are virtually identical. :laugh:
 
I heard Nylander’s agent talking about the internal cap structure as being the primary basis for negotiating the contract and he didn’t care as much about comparables around the league.
There wasn't even an "internal cap structure" or contracts of any kind that would be relevant to Nylander at the time of his signing, unless he was talking about past post-ELC contracts the team signed - which also wouldn't have been very relevant to him. League-wide post-ELC comparables were exclusively cited during Nylander's negotiations, and his resulting contract aligns with post-ELC comparables around the league, not with UFAs or anybody on the team. UFA contracts are not comparables for post-ELC contracts, just like forward contracts aren't comparables for goaltender contracts. You must have misheard or misunderstood.
 
Matthews has just now learned to compete in the playoffs and finally understanding what it takes. Due to the roster construction he had to over compensate, but there’s potential and he’s changed from laughing at being rag-dolled to smashing Sergachev’s face into the glass.
Thank God.
 
So when does one stop being a rookie? Dubas was here as an AGM for 4 years, 3 of which were under the most experienced GM in NHL history in Lou, before becoming GM. On top of being an OHL GM for 3 years.

Some people don't need 20 years of experience to do a job properly or excel in it. Especially when that job has changed enough in the last decade to the point where that experience is probably not even as valuable as it once was.

I would suggest that Julien Brisebois walked into the Tampa job with a lot more hockey operations knowledge than Dubas did with the Leaf job. He spent the better part of the decade building the Lightning core with Yzerman and put the finishing touches on a 2 (or 3?) time cup winner whereas the Leafs are stuck where they are.
 
I would suggest that Julien Brisebois walked into the Tampa job with a lot more hockey operations knowledge than Dubas did with the Leaf job. He spent the better part of the decade building the Lightning core with Yzerman and put the finishing touches on a 2 (or 3?) time cup winner whereas the Leafs are stuck where they are.

That didn't answer my question.
 
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Comparing Toronto to Tampa Bay and Kyle Dubas to Julien Brisebois is very unflattering if your on the Leafs side of the line.
Not really.
Brisbois had almost 20 years in before he was made a GM.
He didn't have 20 years, and some of the years he did have were just as director of legal affairs in an entirely different era. Dubas has also been in hockey for a while, and like Brisebois, was a Calder Cup winning assistant GM prior to becoming a full NHL GM. Both had more management experience and accomplishments than Sakic, so maybe he's the outlier?

Quite frankly, calling any of these guys "rookies" is pretty silly, and is only meant to demean somebody they dislike - it really says nothing about their abilities or performance.
 
And Jack was light's out for the first part of the year so those stats are skewed
100% right

We're not the only ones who got burned, but we definitely got burned the most with all of our big signings coming directly before the cap went stagnant due to the pandemic. I'm not sure how we could blame Dubas for doing what everybody does, just because a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic happened to stagnate the cap at the worst possible time for us.

Every single GM in the history of the cap has followed cap projections and bet on a continued increase of the cap - at least until the cap recently stagnated.
I blame Dubas for signing Tavares when we didn’t need him and for not being aware enough to realize that Marner and Matthew were going to ask for such high contracts………thats his dam job.
 
Only if you think we should have gone all in to try to win with a teenage core.

I think Dubas jumped into win-now mode too quickly. Lou doing it would have been insane.

So you agree that Lou didn't bother trying to win with the best group of ELC talent in the league?
 
I blame Dubas for signing Tavares when we didn’t need him and for not being aware enough to realize that Marner and Matthew were going to ask for such high contracts………thats his dam job.
Tavares filled an organizational weakness, and was a big add to our team at a reasonable UFA cost for no expended assets. He knew Matthews was going to get a big contract, and while he may not have expected Marner to break out to the ridiculous extent he did in 2018-2019, that AAV range still would have been budgeted for. Whatever constraints you think we have are a result of the pandemic-induced stagnant cap, not the contracts themselves, and it's not Dubas' job to magically know when a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic is going to hit and turn everything upside down.
 
So you agree that Lou didn't bother trying to win with the best group of ELC talent in the league?

So you think it would have been wise to go all-in with the best group of ELC talent two years from finishing last ? The same 3 guys who can't get it done 4 subsequent years under Dubas ?? LOL. Lou got enough grief for adding Boyle and Pleks. If he had pissed away picks like Dubas, has he would have been crucified.
 
Why would we have to go "all-in" to address obvious weaknesses and not add cap anchors?

Lou could have added to the D in 2018 but did not for what ever reason. His two biggest mistakes were the Z and Marleau contracts which pale in comparison to the boy genius' mistakes. Cap hell was never heard of here until the boy genius worked his magic.

Their resumes are virtually identical. :laugh:

Dubas is better at 3D chess though.
 
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Tavares' contract was not "record setting" in any way, and UFA contracts have absolutely nothing to do with post-ELC contracts.
Nothing happens in a bubble. It's naive to think the Tavares deal had no effect on the Matthews and Marner negotiation strategies.
Yep, once he started caving it's all gone sideways.
No one would deny a more experienced GM certainly would have handled it better but here we are. Live and learn I guess.
Based on how he has done business in Long island, I'm not convinced Lou would have handled it better.

So you agree - he intentionally wasted the core's ELC years.
Intentionally? That's one more for your conspiracy list.



Not taking a stance with this tweet but just showing that being told your job is safe, isn't always the case

Garbage by the Bruins. If you're gonna fire him, do it right away.

I bet that was all Sea Bass. He can't resist being a hero. Wendel Clark should go to Boston and beat him up again.
The only year the leafs were expected to make the playoffs with Lou was 2018

He should have held back Marner 1 more year and scratched Nylander more often in 2017

Getting Makar would have changed this franchise's fortunes .

Making the playoffs in 2017 was the worst thing to happen to Toronto in years
No team would hold Marner back a second year. He deserved to make the team out of camp.
 
Based on how he has done business in Long island, I'm not convinced Lou would have handled it better.
Perhaps not, we'll never know but it never needed to be one or the other anyway.
I didn't want any of them to take over(or Hunter either).
 
Of course, it's common sense. There are no rules that say you can't compare to other contracts, that's absurd.
Agents will use whatever means necessary to get their players the best deal. People are lying to themselves if they don't think Marner and Matthews used Tavares as an internal comparable.

No one is denying that. What people are saying is that Dubas had a choice in denying them that contract based on the CBA. No one pointed a gun at his head and told him he had to sign them to the contract they wanted or they would pull the trigger. That’s what y’all are making it seem like. Worse case scenario was that the players get offersheeted or they don’t play a few games
 
There wasn't even an "internal cap structure" or contracts of any kind that would be relevant to Nylander at the time of his signing, unless he was talking about past post-ELC contracts the team signed - which also wouldn't have been very relevant to him. League-wide post-ELC comparables were exclusively cited during Nylander's negotiations, and his resulting contract aligns with post-ELC comparables around the league, not with UFAs or anybody on the team. UFA contracts are not comparables for post-ELC contracts, just like forward contracts aren't comparables for goaltender contracts. You must have misheard or misunderstood.
What did his agent say on Leafs Lunch shortly after he signed
 
The only year the leafs were expected to make the playoffs with Lou was 2018

He should have held back Marner 1 more year and scratched Nylander more often in 2017

Getting Makar would have changed this franchise's fortunes .

Making the playoffs in 2017 was the worst thing to happen to Toronto in years

Other teams actually try and win, and do win, when their elite players are on ELCs.

So you think it would have been wise to go all-in with the best group of ELC talent two years from finishing last ? The same 3 guys who can't get it done 4 subsequent years under Dubas ?? LOL. Lou got enough grief for adding Boyle and Pleks. If he had pissed away picks like Dubas, has he would have been crucified.

That's the thing - Lou DID go all-in. He signed guys like Marleau to huge deals with term to lose all capspace. He traded 2nd rounders like candy. He DID go all in.
 
And guess what? The team can say no, sit your ass down. Why? Because you’re an RFA, we hold your rights.
And that's exactly what Dubas tried to do with Nylander... Until it came down to the last day and the question became, was Dubas wiilling to risk flushing a season in which Taravres and Marner were scoring like crazy and Matthews was doing great down the drain?

I was of the opinion at the time they should have traded him to send the message to the other two that they weren't going to hand out blank cheques, but when the decision not to trade Nylander was made, then it became signing him vs. letting him sit for a year... And then having all three be up at the same time.
 
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