Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Nineteen67]

But no goalie is going to be guaranteed to not give up goals at certain times, regardless of how much they earn.

Vasi gave up the tying goal in game 7 - but was fortunate that the refs ended up calling it back.

What dumb penalty by Holl

 

[All Mod Cons]

I think Dubas didn't expect MM to ask for 10.893mil and Willie at 7mil. Dubas and pretty much the whole League knows AM's caphit will be between McD and Eichel.
These is all in hindsight.
I think Dubas thought Willie will be around 6-6.5mil range. As that dragged on till the last possible hour. Dubas didn't want it to happen to AM and MM, esp AM since the threat of an offer sheet is real.
Anyhow, it is all in the past and no point dragging on about Dubas should have done this or that with Player X's contract. Bc if thats the case, maybe we should blame Dubas and his scouts for not trading for Shesterkin when he was in the beginning of his development or drafting player X instead of current Marlies....

It's fair game to blame Kyle for things that are proving to be an ongoing issue. His fans still blame Lou, and the guy hasn't worked here for 4 years.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Not sure how anyone is optimistic next year with these guys at the helm

 

[Dreakmur]

Again I disagree respectfully. The Tavares contract coming from a UFA standpoint isn’t that bad. Is it the right fit for our team in hindsight? Maybe maybe not. But the team has had a ton of regular season success with him on the roster. I’m not sure this team is necessarily better without him, given the high possibility the team still moves on from Kadri bc of his suspensions. Then what is the Center depth looking like?

Yes they haven’t had playoff success but you can’t singularly blame that on the Tavares contract. That has to do with a combination of different factors

This is all about hindsight - that’s exactly what regret is. The Tavares contract is the biggest reason we’re so poorly built.

Not sure how anyone is optimistic next year with these guys at the helm

Dubas has continued to learn from his mistakes. Hopefully he continues to apply the lessons to constructing the 2023 roster.

 

[Bomber0104]

But no goalie is going to be guaranteed to not give up goals at certain times, regardless of how much they earn.

Vasi gave up the tying goal in game 7 - but was fortunate that the refs ended up calling it back.

What the Holl are you talking about?



No goal was scored on the play, the ref called a penalty.

That's why it was called no goal, in case you aren't aware of some of the more basic rules of play.

If you shoot the puck after the ref blows the whistle and his arm is up, it's a dead play.

He just decided to shoot anyways.

 

[Stephen]

Cooper's psychological game is among the best in the league. He pissed off half this forum during the series.

Yeah you don’t really want or need pats on the head from the opposition coach. You want to beat their team and forget they ever existed.

 

[killer1980]

Dubas has continued to learn from his mistakes. Hopefully he continues to apply the lessons to constructing the 2023 roster.

Really nice that a $1 billion plus company can hire a kid and let him spend 5+ learning on the job, only to fire him because he really was incapable of doing the job all along.

 

[Stephen]

Again I disagree respectfully. The Tavares contract coming from a UFA standpoint isn’t that bad. Is it the right fit for our team in hindsight? Maybe maybe not. But the team has had a ton of regular season success with him on the roster. I’m not sure this team is necessarily better without him, given the high possibility the team still moves on from Kadri bc of his suspensions. Then what is the Center depth looking like?

Yes they haven’t had playoff success but you can’t singularly blame that on the Tavares contract. That has to do with a combination of different factors

Tavares was a luxury buy that had a lot of far reaching cap consequences and his play style kind of doesn’t fit the vision of “out-skilling” the opposition. At his best he is more of a premium grinder with an elite touch around the net and small area playmaking. We got the biggest name we could, and thought we were on our way. In the end he’s still a very useful player but the frustration for me is your hands are tied for the next round of upgrades that could make us a champion.

 

[Dreakmur]

Really nice that a $1 billion plus company can hire a kid and let him spend 5+ learning on the job, only to fire him because he really was incapable of doing the job all along.

He’s being hindered by mistakes he made years ago. It sucks that he was allowed to make such devastating errors as he learned, but he’s a better GM now - friendship with Keefe aside.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Not sure how anyone is optimistic next year with these guys at the helm

Can't help it. It's in my nature to be optimistic every October.

 

[hfman]

Really nice that a $1 billion plus company can hire a kid and let him spend 5+ learning on the job, only to fire him because he really was incapable of doing the job all along.

Shanahan - rookie
Dubas - rookie
Keefe - rookie


this is how they do it in Toronto.

Are we really surprised by the results?

 

[notbias]

Shanahan - rookie
Dubas - rookie
Keefe - rookie


this is how they do it in Toronto.

Are we really surprised by the results?

Do people that post this nonsense forget we had one of the most experienced coaches and GMs working and failing together?

 

[Bomber0104]

Do people that post this nonsense forget we had one of the most experienced coaches and GMs working and failing together?

"Failing"

The experienced coach/GM took the last place tank team into the playoffs within one season.

Dubas and his pet coach have no better results in the playoffs than that "failing" last-to-first team, five years later.

And now we're back to being the joke of the league, because of these two clowns.

Imagine defending said clowns, being OK with being the joke of the league again, and subsequently shit talking the team from 6 years ago that literally bottomed out to draft Matthews on purpose

Like, you can't actually be serious can you?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Do people that post this nonsense forget we had one of the most experienced coaches and GMs working and failing together?

Or how about Colorado having a rookie GM/coach combo, and Tampa winning with the same combo the past 2 years (keeping in mind that technically Yzerman built a good portion of that team, but he too was a rookie GM anyways so...)

 

[LilySmoov]

"Failing"

The experienced coach/GM took the last place tank team into the playoffs within one season.

Dubas and his pet coach have no better results in the playoffs than that "failing" last-to-first team, five years later.

And now we're back to being the joke of the league, because of these two clowns.

Imagine defending said clowns, being OK with being the joke of the league again, and subsequently shit talking the team from 6 years ago that literally bottomed out to draft Matthews on purpose

Like, you can't actually be serious can you?

No they did not turn a last place team into a playoff team, that was mostly the work of the 3 offense-driving rookies we added to the team at the same time, supported by largely excellent goaltending, the latter of which would prove to be the only meaningful addition Lou made his entire tenure here.

 

[LeafEgo]

While I agree refs were terrible, I still don't buy that they were the reason we lost. IMO Tampa's d and goalie were the difference from the 3rd period of game 6 and on. We saw another example last night where they pretty much did not allow the Rangers much in tight.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the refs called and managed the series like it was still the regular season - that was bizarre and unexpected. You would think that favored the Leafs style of play and curbed the Bolts ruggedness.

 

[LeafEgo]

Do people that post this nonsense forget we had one of the most experienced coaches and GMs working and failing together?

What grade would you give the Lou and Babs rebuild?

Babs said 'theres pain coming', there was, and several years later we were the most promising team in the league. Sounds like a man with a plan.

Dubs signed Tavares and said we can and will with the amigos, and you have to wonder how much foresight was being applied.

The only blemishes on Babs record with the Leafs were under his new boss. He was having a pretty good go at things prior to.

 

[zeke]

What grade would you give the Lou and Babs rebuild?

Babs said 'theres pain coming', there was, and several years later we were the most promising team in the league. Sounds like a man with a plan.

Dubs signed Tavares and said we can and will with the amigos, and you have to wonder how much foresight was being applied.

The only blemishes on Babs record with the Leafs were under his new boss. He was having a pretty good go at things prior to.

The only blemish on Babs record with the Leafs is that the team was atrocious defensively every single year, and then were immediately good defensively the moment he was replaced.

Babs and Lou have the grand distinction of absolutely disastrously wasting the best group of ELC talent in the league.

 

[Antropovsky]

The only blemish on Babs record with the Leafs is that the team was atrocious defensively every single year, and then were immediately good defensively the moment he was replaced.

Babs and Lou have the grand distinction of absolutely disastrously wasting the best group of ELC talent in the league.

Babs 2018 Leafs were 7th in the league in points, 11th in GA average. Defense of Rielly, Gardiner, Hainsey, Dermott, Zaitsev, Borgman, Carrick, Polak .... Seems he did pretty good with the talent he was given.

The following year his team was 18th in GA, the defense was Zaitsev, Dermott, Ozhiganov, Marincin, Gardiner, Muzzin, Rielly. He only had Muzzin for 30 games, Gardiner for 62. His backups were Sparks and Hutchinson.

This was Keefe's first full season as coach and his team was 18th in GA average.

Keefes team was 7th in a 56 schedule season in 2021.

Maybe the analytics said differently than the stats though.

Wasn't one of the Babs teams one of the best teams at winning 1 goal games?

 

[deprw]

I’m not advocating for the firing of Keefe, but I’m advocating for at least making sure he knows his job is not secure. I think as a management group you have to hold everyone in the organization to a high standard. Keefe has failed at the most important phase in the competition schedule 3 or 4 years in a row?

I think you have to at least EXPLORE the option of maybe replacing him if someone better can draw better results. That doesn’t mean that you should of course. But for them to come right out and give him a vote of confidence is crazy to me.

I think this is interesting take, because you under value psychological security in the pressure cooker environment. Like that "I'll be watching you" or "You can be replaced anytime" makes everyone perform better. Handling the pressure and going all-in is default in professional sports and everyone knows that if you don't succeed you missed your chance.

You don't have to tell that to Keefe or to Dubas or to Shanahan. Shanny might retire after this and spend time with family, but there other two are working for their future employment. Every day. It isn't pampering it's how it works in everywhere in pro sports.

If they don't or don't understand that... Well they wouldn't be there. On that premise you should rather than add that pressure or attitude build environment where you can succeed and work on your best ability. It won't come from that "I'm watching you" motivation.

If you want to get to that flow state and perform to your best ability you need some sense of security and trust. Off course there are Michael Jordan's who build that by themself, but not everyone is like that and can't be like that. You have the trust until you don't and then you're gone until that day you get the support and chance to do your job.

Trotz was in this same situation as young coach and grew to be what he is now. Poile gave him vote of confidence for long time. That is to be argued that should we go after Trotz, but I'm not sure he is even available. Cassidy probably would be.

 

[makbeer]

Shanahan - rookie
Dubas - rookie
Keefe - rookie


this is how they do it in Toronto.

Are we really surprised by the results?

Shanahan - rookie
Dubas - rookie
Keefe - rookie
Briere - rookie

 

[francis246]

This is all about hindsight - that’s exactly what regret is. The Tavares contract is the biggest reason we’re so poorly built.



Dubas has continued to learn from his mistakes. Hopefully he continues to apply the lessons to constructing the 2023 roster.

Again no it isn’t. The Tavares contract didn’t stop Dubas from paying the Matthews, Marner and Nylander team friendly post ELC bridge deals, Dubas stopped Dubas from that with poor negotiation. UFA contracts and post ELC contracts are completely different and really shouldn’t even be compared. You don’t have leverage in a UFA deal and with a UFA deal you will overpay slightly to secure the asset. Dubas made a conscious decision to give up leverage on the RFA deals because he got scared the players would sign offersheets or actually sit. That is the deadly mistake, ask any business owner. They aren’t afraid or even regret risks (UFA signings). What they regret is when they are in control of an asset and don’t take advantage of the control over the asset they have.

Dubas HAD ALL THE CONTROL & LEVERAGE!! - why do you keep ignoring that fact like it’s made up? No other team beside our team overpaid their star RFA’s.

 

[francis246]

I think this is interesting take, because you under value psychological security in the pressure cooker environment. Like that "I'll be watching you" or "You can be replaced anytime" makes everyone perform better. Handling the pressure and going all-in is default in professional sports and everyone knows that if you don't succeed you missed your chance.

You don't have to tell that to Keefe or to Dubas or to Shanahan. Shanny might retire after this and spend time with family, but there other two are working for their future employment. Every day. It isn't pampering it's how it works in everywhere in pro sports.

If they don't or don't understand that... Well they wouldn't be there. On that premise you should rather than add that pressure or attitude build environment where you can succeed and work on your best ability. It won't come from that "I'm watching you" motivation.

If you want to get to that flow state and perform to your best ability you need some sense of security and trust. Off course there are Michael Jordan's who build that by themself, but not everyone is like that and can't be like that. You have the trust until you don't and then you're gone until that day you get the support and chance to do your job.

Trotz was in this same situation as young coach and grew to be what he is now. Poile gave him vote of confidence for long time. That is to be argued that should we go after Trotz, but I'm not sure he is even available. Cassidy probably would be.

I don’t undervalue it. I think it’s important to have a positive reinforcing work environment. But I also think accountability is also needed. I’m sure there has been some mention of it behind the scenes but people have to realize that sports organizations are not your conventional work environment and the fans are stakeholders as well. So we have a right to demand accountability as we invest in the team year in and year out.

 

[ACC1224]

But no goalie is going to be guaranteed to not give up goals at certain times, regardless of how much they earn.

Vasi gave up the tying goal in game 7 - but was fortunate that the refs ended up calling it back.

Never happened. You can’t call something back that never occurred.

An ironic thing about this goaltending discussion over the past few pages is that Tampa gave up more goals against during the series than the Leafs.....

It’s not always how many you give up but when you give them up. How many did he give up in game 6/7? OT?

 

[deprw]

$40 mil in 4 forwards is a flawed strategy to start.

Tampa Bay has it right ....

1) All-Star Conn Smythe MVP Goalie ($9.5 mil),& 2) Norris and Conn Smythe MVP Dman Hedman ($7.8 mil) + 3 X offensive forwards Kucherov, Stamkos and Point leading the offense as the next 3 cap usage players for $42 mil.
vs
Toronto where AM + JT + MM + WN = $40.5 mil

Leafs have their forwards covered for the same cap usage 1/2 cap, too bad were only missing the 2 most important pieces the All-World Goalie and the Norris Dman.

f***! It is here! Perfect formula, your genius! Now we just acquire Yzerman from Detroit and send him this message and tell him to execute!

I think most of the championship teams are build around their strengths that come from the composition of their top players. 10% of teams get Vezina level goaltending and 90% are screwed and same goes with those Norrisesque defenders. You can't just pick them or trade Marner for them. You could trade Matthews for them, but then we would be enviously here commenting that "You need 6'4" Selke center that is scoring 60 goals to win the cup".

If this would be this easy I think there would be way more top teams in the league. If you draft "Vasilevsky" of the draft every year for 20 years you get maybe 2 of those Vezina level goaltenders. Same with defenders.

It is problematic that we have our top players in the offense, but it isn't just dumping one of them and getting another 10 mil player back. During our build there have been two elite players available as UFAs Tavares and Pietrangelo, other than that it's gamble every time and it was also with those two.

We have top players to build around, it isn't given situation in this league even if you have top5 pick every year. Trade one away if you will, but then you have to SURE to utilize that cap space more effectively. We have acquired core pieces like Muzzin, Brodie etc. every year despite of those contracts. We have missed on Pietrangelo, but you can't trust your build around saving cap space for that situation to present itself, because it usually doesn't happen.

In that reality Shanahan and our staff work. Not in the wonderland of Willy Wonka.